So who is Spot gonna steal next?

Christwriter · Post by **Christwriter** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 2:59 pm

Super Heroes are Mary Sues/Marty Stues in leotards and tights, and I think the discription of a Mary/Marty Sue/Stu starts with the honydew breasts and the washboard abs. People don't want to trip, fall, fail, get flabby, get cut, get bad haircuts or tiny...you knows. Perfect escapism, and once in a while--long,long while, mostly in the new stuff--you even get moments of simi-competent story-telling, character development and whopping imperfections.

But it's still no excuse, because there's a very good chance that the reader will get tired of Wonder Woman's fifty-seventh battle with a villan who's only defining characteristic with the other fifty-six is that it's got powers, and most likely, bigger boobs and less clothing than Wonder Woman herself (speaking of which, I have to wonder how so many women got blessed with the power of keeping spandex and nylon knitted fabrics from running. I took dancing for eight years with a required uniform of leotards and tights. Given the number of runs I got putting the dang things on, that might be a valuable secret to share...that and how the villanesses kept those stratigic bits of purple or black latex over the naughty bits)

Professionally, there isn't that much of a difference between a clone ressurection, a real ressurection and someone's child taking on the mantel (and if their dad got his butt kicked so badly, why the heck can't they either learn and fly straight or come up with their own freaking ideas already?) of super-villan. It's the same kind of gimmic and it gets freaking OLD after a while.

And if you already KNOW the hero will come back...really, there's no interest in it anymore except for escapism.

CW

Joel Fagin · Post by **Joel Fagin** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 3:54 pm

christwriter wrote:Super Heroes are Mary Sues/Marty Stues in leotards and tights, and I think the discription of a Mary/Marty Sue/Stu starts with the honydew breasts and the washboard abs.

A Mary Sue is an author insert, where the author's character can do no wrong, saves the day regularly and is attractive to whoever the author wants to be attractive to.

War, for example, is a Mary Sue, although not by any means one of the really bad ones.

- Joel Fagin

Soap Soaperson · Post by **Soap Soaperson** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 3:55 pm

Van Douchebag wrote:Gwen was cloned, May never "really" died, Ock and Norman are villains (And Norman never "really" died), Peter's parents were synthenetic clones created by Harry Osborne for vengeance for Norman's "death", and Spidey is outside the rule of revival because he's the star :p

That sounds like some sorta sci-fi soap opera. Not that I, uh, watch those...or anything. >_>

Caduceus · Post by **Caduceus** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 4:35 pm

And that's an example of GOOD character developement? That sounds like something straight out of an episode of a soap opera.

Van Douchebag wrote: At one point long ago she left suddenly to Europe.
Only finally did her letters to Pete finally arrive. Turns out she was pregnant and had twins; Gabriel and Sarah. Now it's decades later, and now Pete is being tormented and hunted by masked assassins... named Gabriel and Sarah.

Christwriter · Post by **Christwriter** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 7:08 pm

Joel Fagin wrote:
christwriter wrote:Super Heroes are Mary Sues/Marty Stues in leotards and tights, and I think the discription of a Mary/Marty Sue/Stu starts with the honydew breasts and the washboard abs.
A Mary Sue is an author insert, where the author's character can do no wrong, saves the day regularly and is attractive to whoever the author wants to be attractive to.

War, for example, is a Mary Sue, although not by any means one of the really bad ones.

- Joel Fagin

Sounds like a lot of Super Heroes.

Seriously, My introduction to Mary Sues started last year... mostly here

http://www.nanowrimo.org/viewtopic.php?t=17359

There was a whole litimus test for Mary Sueism there...and I've been guilty of just about everything on that list.

CW

Joel Fagin · Post by **Joel Fagin** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 7:23 pm

christwriter wrote:Sounds like a lot of Super Heroes.

Yeeess... Except for two things. Firstly, they're not self-inserts, and secondly there's a certain level of intent involved. They're (probably) not doing it as a fantasy for themselves but rather one for the readers.

And superheroes stuff up all the time. Mary Sues are perfect.

- Joel Fagin

Phalanx · Post by **Phalanx** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:07 pm

Joel Fagin wrote:Mary Sues are perfect.

- Joel Fagin

I say bad Mary Sues are perfect. I know plenty of passable Sues.

Van Douchebag · Post by **Van Douchebag** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:12 pm

Stephen Henderson-Grady wrote:And that's an example of GOOD character developement? That sounds like something straight out of an episode of a soap opera.

Find me a webcomic character development that beats it.

Joel Fagin · Post by **Joel Fagin** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:30 pm

Van Douchebag wrote:Find me a webcomic character development that beats it.

Very few webcomics take themselves seriously enough to do much. Most are gag comics, after all. However... Anyone from College Roomies From Hell or Fans would fit the bill.

- Joel Fagin

Phalanx · Post by **Phalanx** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:30 pm

Van Douchebag wrote:
Stephen Henderson-Grady wrote:And that's an example of GOOD character developement? That sounds like something straight out of an episode of a soap opera.
Find me a webcomic character development that beats it.

You know, Stan Lee once attributed X-Men's success to the fact that it was like a soap opera.

Yep. He actually wrote that.

Joel Fagin · Post by **Joel Fagin** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:33 pm

Phalanx wrote:You know, Stan Lee once attributed X-Men's success to the fact that it was like a soap opera.

Many popular comics are. As much as no one likes to admitt it, soaps are very popular. Most popular TV has soapy elements.

- Joel Fagin

Van Douchebag · Post by **Van Douchebag** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:54 pm

I don't like College Roomies. I took one look and ran screaming. I mean, guy with talking tentacle arm?
Lost my interest reeeeeeeeal quickly.

As for the whole soap opera dealy.... you're talking to a huge WWE fan.

Joel Fagin · Post by **Joel Fagin** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:02 pm

Van Douchebag wrote:I don't like College Roomies. I took one look and ran screaming. I mean, guy with talking tentacle arm?
Lost my interest reeeeeeeeal quickly.

Says the guy with the zombie lawyers.

Anyway, the tentacle doesn't talk. Where'd you get that idea?

- Joel Fagin

Faub · Post by **Faub** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:10 pm

Mary Sue, huh? I didn't know that concept had a name.

I'm SO guilty of this problem. I've gone through great pains to not give any of my characters super powers. Any magic in the story is based more on wonder and mystery than the ability to shoot color light from one's hands and screaming.

Van Douchebag · Post by **Van Douchebag** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:21 pm

As I keep saying, White Hydra is my crap. I don't find half my stuff funny.
The only strips I find funny are #9 (College student and Colonel Sanders), #10 ("Is it sprinkled with evil?") and #28 ("Let's try a saving throw!"). I mean, I don't think the zombie lawyers are funny at all. I'd've much rather done zombie Riverdancers 'cept I'm not sure about the costumes.

Given the opportunity I'd much rather work on my Kittie Deadgirl or The Sickness dealies, but unfortunately my Americana isn't up to par yet and I don't want them cartoony. These stories are truly epics - Kittie Deadgirl a superhero story with a modern edge of corporate conspiracy combined with classic superhero brawling, and The Sickness a powerful story about religion and redemption seen through the eyes of an angel who betrayed God.

However, people seem to like WH enough oddly so I won't fix what ain't broken. If I can be successful doing something I'm not as excited about as other things I'm not bothered. That's why I have nothing against Jim Davis.

Caduceus · Post by **Caduceus** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 10:06 pm

I realize that what I said probably mis-represented how I feel about this issue.

I think superhero comics can and do deal with the characters well. I really have been liking the Claremont X-Mens recently for that very reason. However, I do not like it when they rely on ridiculous coincidence. The world never needed four Supergirls or however many damn Spidermans there were; we need one Spiderman with reasonably written stories by good writers who don't have to rely on ridiculously complicated plots to maintain reader interest.

Van Douchebag · Post by **Van Douchebag** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 10:16 pm

That I can agree on. Least the current Supergirl incarnation (See Superman/Batman #8-now) has a good story to her.

I dislike the Spidey knock offs. 3 Spider-Women, 2 Spider-Girls, plus the clones....
The only knockoff I like is good ol' Venom, but then they knocked him off in Seperation Anxiety. I hope this new symbiote Toxin that Carnage is carrying doesn't suck.

Bekka · Post by **Bekka** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 10:59 pm

I mean, I don't think the zombie lawyers are funny at all.

I think they are your highest moment, in WH. I love them.

Warren · Post by **Warren** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:07 am

ALL lawyers are funny. You know, like when you knock them down and stuff.

Van Douchebag · Post by **Van Douchebag** » Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:53 am

They are actually going to return in Chapter 4 (Entitled "Trial and Terror) when Evil Boner sues Samara. Who's her defense attorny? Gallagher; Chicken at Law!