Professional Development.

[Joel Fagin]

It's Walky has been using some very clumsy continuity re-writing and storytelling recently and CRFH seems to be stuck in a incredibly long story that's going nowhere, and I suddenly became curious how many comics writers had done some sort of creative writing course. Then I wondered how it'd compare to how many have done art courses. Finally, on my biased assumption that the latter would outnumber the former, I wondered why fewer people would be less concerned about story than art.

(Of course, flaws in art are far, far easier to spot than flaws in writing. That's probably a contributer.)

Myself, I've done a short story writing course but for a long time I arrogantly assumed I wouldn't learn much from such a thing. I have no intention of doing an art course. I'm more serious about writing than drawing and I'm happy to let my drawing develop at it's own pace.

- Joel Fagin

[Soap Soaperson]

Guilty as charged. I concentrate more on the pretty pictures than I should on giving a non-confusing plot. However, my training in art is pitiful, at best. I've taken many more English/writing classes (which don't count, because they're required) than art classes. That'll change sooner or later, but still.

I ought to take a nice writing course, to help with my muddled method of storytelling.

[Melody]

I do not think any courses for creative endeavors like storytelling and drawing offer any help. Improvement results from experience, and so in this way courses are good, but just about as good as doing the same amount of stuff on your own.

I think creativity is efficiency with heuristics, and courses seem to profess that it is algorithmic. This is misleading, in my opinion.

And stuff...

[Joel Fagin]

I do not think any courses for creative endeavors like storytelling and drawing offer any help. Improvement results from experience, and so in this way courses are good, but just about as good as doing the same amount of stuff on your own.

Well, if you think about it, what you are trained with is the experience of all the writers and artists of the last few hundred years. They've trialled, errored, tested, experimented, calculated and the result has been distilled into the courses now available.

The Australian troops who went into East Timor - who had, like all modern first world armies, been trained with the distilled results of centuries of warfare from dozens of cultures - were regularly surprised, ambushed and outnumbered by militia who had merely practiced a lot.

It was a joke. The Australians would kill three, capture two, send the rest packing and have a grazed knee for their trouble. Inspired a story, actually.

I said above that I arrogantly assumed I wouldn't learn much from the creative writing course. As a matter of fact, I was right, but I did learn some things and two of them were extremely important - and not, I can see with hindsight, things I would've ever recognised for myself.

- Joel Fagin

[Hiye]

As an artist, I spend equal time on creative writing courses and art courses, as well as doing self-study in character development and plot structure as well. In fact, I have much of my comic mapped out in story form. I'm more concerned with plotholes and substance instead of pretty pictures, because in my opinion the art is easier to improve upon.

So far I've taken one introductory creative writing course in my high school and an anatomy/life-drawing class in the local art college, though I must say, they haven't helped much yet. The biggest help I've gotten was from anatomy/perspective books, photo references, writing books, and art critiques. It's true, experience is the best teacher, though classes and formal instruction can do no wrong.

[Honor]

So... Since I'm new here, lemme ask... Is there a forum or thread where those of us who are much better at writing than drawing meet those who are better at (or more interested in) drawing than writing?

[Xmung]

personally i think a comic with a bad story can be quite confusing and unsatisfying. (but who am i to talk?) writing for comics really is very different to general story writing - figuring out how to pace the visual narrative over the pages and what text and dialogue to include or omit can be really challenging.

[Joel Fagin]

personally i think a comic with a bad story can be quite confusing and unsatisfying.

It's not so much the quality of the story but rather the technical side of how it's told.

Which might be what you meant but I thought I'd clarify.

- Joel Fagin

[Liriel]

I started out wanting to be a novelist to begin with. I took a three phase creative writing series at the local Uni over the course of four years, and one of the best things that taught me was how to evaluate your own writing; what technical aspects work, what don't, how it could be better, etc. Granted writing for comics is very different, and I have yet to master that aspect in the least :?, but at least I've discovered that those evaluation skills still work.

~Liriel

[JexKerome]

Well, like I said somewhere else, I've never taken art classes (and it shows). I've also never taken writing classes; however, very early I noted my lack of writing skills as I tried to tell stories instead of just gags, and pondered upon it. Art classes as such are not part of common curricula around these parts, though; in my school days the education system used rather static and outdated courses (that's all changing now, though). Since both money and time have been in short supply for me for quite some time now, taking art courses has never been an option.

So that left the field of self-teaching aids and stuff. I looked around for suiitable material and settled upon Robert J. Ray's "The Weekend Novelist". This book takes you through a laid-back 52 week process to produce a complete novel from scratch. Although a novel is different from a graphic novel, for the reasons Xmung noted, the nuts and bolts of both are pretty much the same: well-rounded characters with motivations, an interesting story properly structured, and the correct presentation of character interaction.

I can't say I've hit the nail on the head yet, but I can say the book's insights have helped a lot to plan my comic's story arcs, as well as prepare better for my next comic . So I am all for studying how to write.

[Faub]

So... Since I'm new here, lemme ask... Is there a forum or thread where those of us who are much better at writing than drawing meet those who are better at (or more interested in) drawing than writing?

Most people just post in GD looking for artists. The problem is, most everyone who comes here has their own comic anyway so they aren't going to want to get into a new one. It never hurts to ask as there have been cases where writers have found artists. If you do find your artist, hold onto them for dear life because people you don't know who are willing and able to help you are few and far between.

Classes for the most part provide a structured environment in which to learn. In many cases I find that even the simplest classes have something to offer, even if it's a new perspective for looking at an old problem. It will depend on the student as much as the teacher really. If you're not willing to learn you won't learn anything. If you decide instead to really get into the class you might find that the problem was just a way to get you thinking about the topic and it's your solution that matters in the end.

[Jim North]

I took a semester of Creative Writing during my short time at college. Sadly, due to a number of very unfortunate factors, I only managed to turn in two short stories (or, rather, one and a half). Somehow, however, I got a D in the class with just those two stories instead of the straight F I was expecting, and recieved promising notes on the papers when I got them back.

I don't think I gained much from this experience, but I also know that, to some degree, it was my fault. If I had managed things better, I would have put more into it and hopefully would have gotten more out of it, too.

I started writing back in high school, and the primary bulk of my work has been Sonic the Hedgehog fan fiction, which I still work on from time to time. I've also managed to put out a couple of original works. Not as many as I'd like, but time will solve that problem, I hope. One of my dreams for the future, after all, is to actually have something published. Whether it starts off a whole career as a writer is secondary, really . . . I just want to be able to say "I got something published, dammit!" and then act all smarmy about it.

[JexKerome]

I got a D in the class with just those two stories instead of the straight F I was expecting, and recieved promising notes on the papers when I got them back.

One of the big advantages of playing True RPGs, specially as a GM, is that you develop the ability to create interesting stories. If you fail at this, your gaming buddies will grow bored, raid your fridge like a swarm of locusts, and hook up the Xbox, leaving you alone at the gaming table.

[Jim North]

Heh, true enough . . . though they do that sometimes anyway just to be ornery.

[Fullcircle]

I've taken some writing classes but a long time ago, and I could *really* use a referesher. I orginally wanted to be a novelist too before falling in love with the medium of comics. Actually, I still do, and because I don't much value my sanity I have every intention of doing the ongoing comic and writing my novel at the same time... heh.

Writing and Art classes can NEVER hurt. But again, like taking any classes, the teacher makes all the difference.

~SR

[Xmung]

personally i think a comic with a bad story can be quite confusing and unsatisfying.

It's not so much the quality of the story but rather the technical side of how it's told.

Which might be what you meant but I thought I'd clarify.

more or less... but someone can tell a bad story with all the technical skills under the sun and it would still be a bad story, eh? but yes, i've read through pages and pages of story only to feel totally baffled by what was going on... and even if i'm trying real hard to like it or get into it, i just can't.

i'd love to hear from phalanx on this - she's mentioned in a few places that she's had some 'editorial direction' for the latest chapter of the jaded and i'd be curious to know how this worked for her (it sounds like it was quite positive). at any rate, having a second opinion on the overview of our stories would be invaluable - and might be what is missing from it's walky and crfh (what's that btw?) and many other comics that just seem to go off on a tangent or get mired in pointlessness.

of course, to get an second opinion on the overview of our stories would mean we'd need to know what that overview is ourselves... and i get the feeling plenty of people start a story without knowing where it's going themselves. not that there's anything wrong with that - i've done it myself... only to story implode in the process.

[Garasade]

http://www.crfh.net/

It's College Roomies from Hell!

[JexKerome]

Ah, yes; my younger brother's hooked on that one and gushing about how mexicans CAN make it in the international webcomics scene. I'm out to prove him wrong...

[Alaina]

The first thing I always look at is the art. If it's not, um, at least decent then I usually don't bother. Which is bad, but something I'm used to doing. I'm one of those "randomly picks a book from the library based on how pretty the cover is" kind of people.

Writing is the next thing that matters. If the art is okay but the writing sucks, then I usually don't bother. It'd be like looking at nice pictures in a museum, which is not what I come for when I read webcomics.

[Warren]

I actually don't remember very many of my hs or college courses. So I'd have to answer "maybe."