Keenspot - Keenspace?: Relations?

For discussions, announcements, non-technical questions and anything else comics-related or otherwise that doesn't fit in any of the other categories.
Teri Crosby
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Post by Teri Crosby »

Chris Crosby wrote:
TheGoobla wrote:
So.... when did that start happening? Right now?
Since late last year, I believe.
Yes, we became profitable enough to begin paying Kisai and Kelly last year. So far, they've each received 3 quarterly payments given at the same time we pay the Keenspotters.

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Post by Ghastly »

Chris Crosby wrote:If I knew you KeenSPACErs had such loose morals I would have shut the place down long ago to please Aryan Jesus.
Having grown up in a Pentecostal household I can wholeheartedly assure you that there is absolutely no pleasing Aryan Jesus.

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Post by Mercury Hat »

Jesus always looks so sad hanging on that cross all by himself :(
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Post by Zuri »

I've been resisting this thread ( although enjoying reading it a lot..) but no longer. have to put in my 2 cents.

A suggestion to Chris and crew:
Working in committee can be a bitch. I know, I'm mired knee deep in committee work 24/7 at post secondary institution no less. And while, yes, committee work can make decisions more difficult there are things that can be done to speed things up.

I think perhaps you folks are still viewing keenspot as too personal. It still comes down in the end if you 'like' the comic or not. Which excludes a lot of potentially good titles from your line up ( good titles = Ad revenue right?). Remember, YOU are not the audience nessisarily of a given comic. If you don't personally like it, it doesn't nessisarily matter. IF you are in this as a business, it is important to realize when personal taste is really become much to much of a hinderance. In order to prevent opinion ( ie: so and so hates the comic ) from to heavily influencing the decision process, you people should establish and agree on hard, factual criteria for the keenspotting process.

Example of spotting criteria might be:
The comic must be rated between G and MA. Keenspot will not be accepting any comics over NC-17.
The comic must NOT contain copyrighted material.
The comic must NOT contain material/characters/names that could be offensive to advertisers.
The comic must have a minimum of 200,000 page views a month.
The comic must have an average of unique visits totalling more than 2000 a day.
The comic must demonstrate that they are updating at least once a week for a minimum of X months.
The comic must have a minimum archive of X number of comics.
The comic artists must be willing ( and able ) to sign whatever contract keenspot requires as an exclusive publisher.
The comic must demonstrate that it will be profitable to keenspace in terms of views vs ad impressions. ( you could get this from your own stats. )
Keenspot must be have a slot avaliable for a new title in the genre of the comic being considered.

these are just examples. But you can see my point. IF a comic is meeting ALL these criteria, which is VERY easy to check, its hard to argue as to WHY they should NOT be spotted. And in my opinion, " because I don't like it personally" doesn't factor into a business world. The ability to eliminate subjectiveness in a committee enviroment is very helpful.

I realize you aren't the problem Chris nessisarily, but I'm suggesting this as a means to help move the spotting process into something that does not rely on opinion entirely and that can be more easily and regularly managed. You should also establish a quarterly review schedule and number of slots that 'Spot makes avaliable per quarter. If you only spot one comic per say.. quarter or year or whatever, but you are dedicated to filling that spot, it makes it much more compeditivefor interested artists and gives some hope to the aspiring creators. They KNOW when to expect promotions, they know what they need to do to get them, and you guys all are clear on what is expected of a keenspot comic. Also if you DO reject an application, it gives a very strong, completely factual and clear reason for a rejection.

Example situation based on above criteria:
(I'm going to pick on Ghastly here for a minute, just for sake of argument, and its pretty well known all the controversy and yada. No offence in advance Ghastly, its just.. you make such a good example.)
Okay, lets say Ghastly's comic has applied or is being considered for promotion. Based on the above criteria set forth by keenspot to determine if a comic is eligible for 'spot, his comic does not satisfy at least two conditions. His comic is NC-17 and it displays material offensive to advertisers. Thus his comic, as popular as it might be, does not fit your profile of a keenspot comic. It is automatically eliminated.

You don't waste time on voting and stuff, because it is eliminated on publishing criteria right from the get go. Nice and efficient. You could even have someone else doing all the figures for you before your voting meeting. Saves both you and Ghastly time. He can look immediately for a new venue and you can move on to more of the type of comics you want to recruit before they get picked up elsewhere.

One of the number one reasons why people leave a job or change jobs is that they have no chance for advancement. This is currently where things sit. As a publisher you have to jump on talent. Regardless of if you actually personally LIKE the work or not, you can appreciate a good product based in its performance and earning potential. If its a 'hot' product, it doesn't matter if you use it, it only matters that you are the only one selling it. If you are unsure of a comics performance potential perhaps you should offer them a one year contract or six month contract to 'trial' them with an option to renew if they perform well. Then if they don't, both parties can walk away with no hard feelings.

I think you guys are at a point where you really have to establish clear, non-subjective policies regarding what kind of things ever have a chance to either apply or be 'invited' ( and which is it anyway? ) to keenspot. It seems on outset that Keenspot is still very cliqueish with a lack of organization and professionalism as a publisher. Its still a bunch of people, running a server, hosting and promoting the comics they like or that belong to friends. There is little organization, no strong policy, no strong direction, and way too much focus on " do I like it personally?" than " Is this what the audience wants and will pay for?"

Regardless if this is true, this is an image you folks will have to work to change as a part of your marketing strategy.

I would also suggest that you add a 5th person to your vote. Perhaps as a blind vote that is not used unless there is a tie. Perhaps Kisai or Kelly would be good choices being that they are a rep from the keenspace side of things.

I have no idea if any of this was helpful.. but at least I said my bit. :)
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Post by RPin »

Well... I'm more interested on any feedback you can provide us now, Mr. Crosby.

Say, you suggested the rating of comics to your crew. Please let us now about the outcome of this idea.

Also, you said earlier this leak of talent from KeenSpace is something you'll be looking for in the future. What ideas do you have in mind to suggest to your other partners in order to improve this situation?

Sorry if I've been a jackass so far. But that's only because I love this community too much, you know.

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Post by Kisai »

Let me narrow this down a little...

I like working on keenspace, I'd rather not throw in the towel, but due to time constraints, it's really hard to develop and test anything new, either I work on it live and hope something else doesn't break (like what has happened with both the newsbox and the signup script) and then it's 24 hours before I can fix it. OR... I develop it in the background, but then it may never see the light of day because I've had to change something else (like each time the signup was offline for two months, first time was it didn't exist, second time was that I had to develop removespace)

I also do not want to have to redo anything from scratch, I want to built a better siteadmin/members site, but the problem there is time. I started one, boardy died, took it all with it, and I have to start that over again.

Chris/Teri, I'm not having a fit over what I'm paid (which I've only seen two checks so far) but rather that I don't have the time to make keenspace better so I can be paid more or whatever.

I'm not someone that gets into a loyalty issue. I've been there, I was loyal to one company till they had me buy a car to get more work from them and they turned around and denied I even worked for them a month later. Hence why I'm not going to stick around and wait for gav to update ad code on the forums or nate to update DNS. If I can't fix it -now-, and it's critical that looks bad upon keenspace, no matter what.

Case in point sdxf.net , I changed the mx for jops so e-mail would be directed to his own server, but DNS remained frozen to februrary 29th up untill a week ago. If I had setup any more domains in the mean time, that would have also happened, and did. seasonsofconstancy.net experienced phase-in/phase-out problems and decided to just put it back to what it was before.

I've had to deny peoples request for domain names for the last two months.

Tsunami channel and Jack left because of the crash.

...

In the marketing/sales world this is called churn, currently I have no way to track negative churn (comics going else where) other than the site itself stop updating or the author deletes their entire site.

This was most obvious when sexy losers left and the system load on boardy dropped from 600 apache sessions constant to 350. Now it's back around 650, so only in the last two months as it come back up, and 10% of that is linkage from Penny Arcade.


Is there any advertisement of keenspace comics outside of Keenspace? BuzzComixs, TopWebComics, Top 100 lists, peoples links pages. But the only time massive amounts of people visit in a short period of time is when linked from another webcomic.

Keenspace has a bad rap because of some of the "geocities" type of anti-abuse I've had to implement in the last 6 months as well, anti-hotlinking, removal of dump sites, removal of empty sites. In the marketing/sales world this is called fraud detection.

Also a bad rap, sprite-rip comics and other "junk comics", comics that people post like 3 of and never come back, or they decide to use the site as their personal dumping ground.

The problem with solving these issues is that it also loses readers and gives negative PR. The anti-hotlinking, some sites were eating 10MB per page at the worst. Solving it (average keenspace pageload is 120KB) required a nastly system that broke Norton Internet Security. So that makes people who can't view the ad's, the same people who can't view the comic. There is no way to force people to view the ads, and NIS, ZoneAlarm and the firewall shipping with MS's security update CD all strip advertisements and pop-ups. So the ad-revenue model is going to have to change again.

The only solution (for webcomics) would involve altering the comic itself, and that may be something I look into in the next few months.

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Post by Teri Crosby »

Kisai wrote: Chris/Teri, I'm not having a fit over what I'm paid (which I've only seen two checks so far) but rather that I don't have the time to make keenspace better so I can be paid more or whatever.
The latest one was mailed to you a couple of days ago, so you should receive it very soon.

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Post by Terotrous »

Kisai wrote:There is no way to force people to view the ads, and NIS, ZoneAlarm and the firewall shipping with MS's security update CD all strip advertisements and pop-ups. So the ad-revenue model is going to have to change again.
I really would like to know how they're taking out the ad banner. Isn't it just laced into the page? Pop-ups are easier to block because the call to open a new window is easy to trace, but the banner should be just some javascript code that creates an IMG tag.
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Post by McDuffies »

RPin wrote:Good to see you're doing what you can!
I agree. Nice to know you put on vote EOI and CYS.

I should edit my messages, because I think I've been meaning you alone were the responsible for the negative points of Keenspace.[/quote]
Yeah, what he said. I don't know if I was reffering to Keenspot or to Chris but I certainly meant Keenspot.
Teri Crosby wrote: Yes, we became profitable enough to begin paying Kisai and Kelly last year. So far, they've each received 3 quarterly payments given at the same time we pay the Keenspotters.
:D :D :D
Chris Crosby wrote:Either you are HATIN' me or you are FONDLIN' me! If I knew you KeenSPACErs had such loose morals I would have shut the place down long ago to please Aryan Jesus.
It's not us, it's just Goobla.
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Zuri wrote:I think perhaps you folks are still viewing keenspot as too personal. It still comes down in the end if you 'like' the comic or not. Which excludes a lot of potentially good titles from your line up ( good titles = Ad revenue right?). Remember, YOU are not the audience nessisarily of a given comic. If you don't personally like it, it doesn't nessisarily matter. IF you are in this as a business, it is important to realize when personal taste is really become much to much of a hinderance. In order to prevent opinion ( ie: so and so hates the comic ) from to heavily influencing the decision process, you people should establish and agree on hard, factual criteria for the keenspotting process.
Valid point.
This could be a little dated example since El Goonish Shive, Sore Thumbs and others are on Spot now, but a year back I was wondering why there's so little manga comics on spot (2 if I remember, Exploatation now and Wendi); To make it clear, I'm not manga fan, I often get fed up with amount of manga on web, but manga comunnity on web is large and speaking strictly of business, keeping Spot short of manga was not a very good move. It was obviously that personal taste was in matter - and, well ok, you couldn't decline someone's personal taste - but lots of hits were declined to Spot that way.
And, I mean, I used manga just as most obvious example.

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Post by Joel Fagin »

I know there's a hell of a lot of it but I never got the impression that manga - pure manga rather than gag comics done in a manga style* - was ever terribly popular.

- Joel Fagin

* Which is still manga but you know what I mean.
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Post by Zuri »

Manga is extremely popular.. in hard copy. Practically driving the graphic novel industry right now. There are very popular online mangas tho. The biggest one I can think of, is of course Megatokyo, which there is no disputing is huge. Some others I can think of that are popular enough: Sparkling Generation Valkarie Yuki (sp?), EverSummer Eve, 9th Elsewhere, Angels 2200, Alpha Shade, Alien Dice to name a few. There are a number of manga titles in the top 25 comics in keenspace currently including Arcana, Saturnalia, Okashina Okashi - Strange Candy, Shifters, Alter girl, Sublunary, PSC, and a few others that I don't know if they consider themselves 'manga' or not. ( Venus Envy, Mixed Myth and Twelve Dragons )

I feel there are a number of reasons for manga manga being 'less popular' than manga styled humor strips. The biggest one is the difference between not style ( north american comic style vs manga style ) but rather the format of graphic novel vs humor strip. More people want a quick ha ha fix rather than get involved in a long, slowly updated story. Many 'good' manga stories are not happy funny romps, but often much more involved dramatic forays that largely go overlooked because people just don't want to think that much. Humor is always VASTLY more popular than drama. :P
Also, the number who can do it RIGHT are generally small. ( all the more reason to snap them up quick!)

Another one is the sheer glut of poorly done manga that totally misses the point of WHAT manga is. As a result it ends up being a pale shadow imitation that is more annoying than entertaining. Its full of misunderstood cultural references, cliches, camp, and lets not forget the butchered pale imitation clamp or ranma drawings. So you get a lot of people who get very jaded because of it. Hell.. I DRAW in the style and after going through the signups even just as a casual observer I was horrified and sickened by the sheer amount of badly done manga. And I was just looking at the first PAGE. I actually started drawing Marvel style for a couple of days just to make sure I still could. So I honestly don't blame people for getting a negative view, but its still important to realize that most of these people who are trying to draw it, also generally read it. So there is a huge market.

Generally speaking, you do have to be at it for actual story mangas a lot longer than strips. takes a lot more to get momentum. You also do have to learn how to write coherant, interesting stories to make manga work in a more story based way. Most people don't write very well when they start out. * cough* I feel into this trap. I'm better now. 30 comic strips is a fair number to get going, but in a story manga 30 pages is like a spit in the bucket. You haven't gone anywhere. You generally need at least 50-100 pages depending on how brillant a writer you are.
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Post by Phalanx »

Chris Crosby wrote:
How long did Sili Cone V, Framed, Basil Flint, Adventurers, Wapsi Square... had to go, and what they had to go through before you finally spotted them? And, what are you gonna do with Count Your Sheep, Elf Only Inn, other good comics of space?
All I can say is that I voted yes on ELF ONLY INN at least a year ago and COUNT YOUR SHEEP late last year. (Some of The Four hate it when I give away things like that, but everybody always blames ME SPECIFICALLY for being the moron who takes forever to Spot great strips, and they're probably not reading this thread anyway, so nyah nyah nyah.) All I knows is, I forced the change from unanimous to majority rules last year (which is basically what allowed us to invite most of the comics you mentioned above), and I can try my darndest to force other changes as well...
You did?!? EOI and CYS?!

Wow. If only I had known...

Well, Chris, Looks like I owe you an apology then.

Still wonder how the vote didn't get through, especially for CYS (Lea Hernandez was touting Adis as the next big thing in webcomics AND print comics in her GAM editorial) but at least I know now that an attempt was made and you tried.

But it's only a matter of time. I'll keep waiting. ;)

ps: I shudder to think what would happen if Keenspace were to lose Kisai. Arnarchy, most likely... *has nightmares*
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Post by Warren »

Chris Crosby wrote:All I can say is that I voted yes on ELF ONLY INN at least a year ago and COUNT YOUR SHEEP late last year. (Some of The Four hate it when I give away things like that, but everybody always blames ME SPECIFICALLY for being the moron who takes forever to Spot great strips, and they're probably not reading this thread anyway, so nyah nyah nyah.)
Ahh.... the fun of being "point man." At least you accept it with good humor.
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Post by Faub »

Blocking ads is not particularly difficult. You can set Mozilla to block everything for specific sites or to just block images that don't come from the same site as the page you're viewing. You can just not install flash if you don't want flash ads. The way I see it, ad revenue is nice, but you shouldn't rely on it. It shouldn't be your main source of income. That's why the dot coms are dead.

This is where I get lost, though.

An idea: Setup a Cafe Press style service that lets Keenspacers sell shirts, mugs, etc. and Keen Co. gets part of the money. This is how Mega Tokyo is staying afloat. Why don't I see people at cons (hmm.. the last one I went to was last August so I guess that's why I don't see people at them.. 8) ) with Keenspace logos on their shirts? Make a good quality shirt and make the price reasonable for the artist and you'll have a good thing on your hands. You already have something like this for Keenspot, right? (right??) It doesn't have to be the same quality. You could require spacers to do their own promotion, that sort of thing.

Have I thought about how to implement this? No.

An idea: Run a promotion where if a spacer goes to a con, they can buy a package of items to sell at their artist's table. They sign up and pay so much (whole sale price) then they can sell the can resell the merchandise at retail. Basically, give every spacer a merchant account for item of the month items. Give them Keenspot stuff they can sell along side their crappy printouts.

Would I do this? Oh yeah. It would give me a good reason to spend $100 for a table at Con-stipation (or whatever they call the one here in Columbia). It would make me think about getting serious with printing my own comic.

You have a large work force available to you. It's not just a 468x60 rectangle on a computer screen. Think of a way to take advantage of that manpower (without letting them know you're taking advantage of them, of course).

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Post by Ghastly »

Well I've just PMed Chris a possible solution to the current advertising problem faced by Ghastly's Ghastly Comic. Hopefully he'll make an executive decision on my proposal and not take it to the Keen-Kouncil where a decision will not be reached until well after I've left Keen.

Keenspot styled merchandising should definetly be made available at least to the popular Keenspace artists. I'd rather have a couple hundred bucks worth of merchandising sales going to Keen each month where it will ultimately do me more good than having it go to Cafepress for basically selling an inkjet iron-on T-shirt where, apart from my mere pitance of a commission, none of that money is invested in a system that does me any good.

Providing Keenswag to artists at wholesale prices to sell at conventions is a pretty good idea. Unfortunately there are a lot of Keenspot artists who want absolutely nothing to do with Keenspace at all (some going so far as to not want Space to be part of the Keen family) and they'd probably object to their merchandise being sold by lowly Spacers.

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Post by RPin »

Phalanx wrote:ps: I shudder to think what would happen if Keenspace were to lose Kisai. Arnarchy, most likely... *has nightmares*
The word here would be "Kaput".

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Post by Rkolter »

RPin wrote:
Phalanx wrote:ps: I shudder to think what would happen if Keenspace were to lose Kisai. Arnarchy, most likely... *has nightmares*
The word here would be "Kaput".
I'd probably leave unless Keenspace immediately got someone to replace her and made her as available as Kisai has been to us.
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Post by Noise Monkey »

I'm assuming your definition of "available" includes:

almost slave-like devotion with a high tolerance for being underappreciated by the majority. in almost all ways worthy of sainthood (you have to be dead to be a saint right? that would be unsuitable...unless they were undead...then they could feast on what passes for brains in those ingrates...).

'cause that's the only way they'd even be able to TRY to follow Kisai.

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Post by Rkolter »

Noise Monkey wrote:I'm assuming your definition of "available" includes:

almost slave-like devotion with a high tolerance for being underappreciated by the majority. in almost all ways worthy of sainthood (you have to be dead to be a saint right? that would be unsuitable...unless they were undead...then they could feast on what passes for brains in those ingrates...).

'cause that's the only way they'd even be able to TRY to follow Kisai.
Yup. That's the definition I was using.
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Post by Orion »

Why is she so nice to us? From what I understand she has no comic beyond the fanart page (which for some reason I am forbidden from seeing) so why is she so loyal to Keenspace? I seem to recall someone saying she works for free too.

we don't deserve her and her undead powers of sweetness.
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