Keenspot - Keenspace?: Relations?

Joel Fagin · Post by **Joel Fagin** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 4:01 pm

mcDuffies wrote:How long did Sili Cone V, Framed, Basil Flint, Adventurers, Wapsi Square... had to go, and what they had to go through before you finally spotted them?

There was a long period when nothing was added to Spot. I don't know why but I suspect there's a good reason. Those were added when that period ended. Indeed, Adventurers might well have been the first. It's the first I noticed.

- Joel Fagin

Phalanx · Post by **Phalanx** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 4:31 pm

mcDuffies wrote:You got to admit that you were extremely late with that:How long did Sili Cone V, Framed, Basil Flint, Adventurers, Wapsi Square... had to go, and what they had to go through before you finally spotted them? And, what are you gonna do with Count Your Sheep, Elf Only Inn, other good comics of space? Wait five more years until you finally decide that they're good enough to be spotted? Well, Silli Cone V ended soon after it was spotted.
Most comics from Space you spotted were, well, you know, blind man would spot them (no pun intended).

You know, the thing about the inefficiency of a comittee strikes the hardest here. It's just not practical.

This spotting business would work a lot better if you just had one person that everyone else trusts in charge of the recruiting.

Actually, it'd be fun to have alternative keenspace-type site, we could tell each others: "Bah, you and your crummy server!"
I'm all for free competition. It would certainly lead to improving both services.

You Chris, are monopolist, concearning free comic hosting right now.

Erm, McD, one already exists. It's called DrunkDuck.

I still don't understand why a lot of the people here aren't inclined to take it seriously, because I do. IMHO, DD's been pretty impressive so far. The template thing may irritate some, but given how some of the Keenspace sites look and the amount of trouble people have with the Keenspace system, I'd say it isn't a bad thing in the end.

And it does have some rather good innovations... like the page comments and that front page...

Right now DD is just young. But the person running DD has a lot of drive. Give it a year or two and Keenspace is going to find it a worthy competitor.

My loyalties aside, that is my impartial opinion.

Oh, and, for the record, since stuff I often say can be missinterpretted, I don't hate people who leave keenspace, specially if they're doing it with oportunity to earn money (I'm not cross with Phalanx, and I'm certainly cross with Ghastly for going indy, they got damn good reason - money is a damn good reason).

Erm... I think there might be a "not" missing in front of Ghastly somewhere in there...

And for the record, I never did it for the money. Like I keep saying: I just like being appreciated.

RPin · Post by **RPin** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 4:34 pm

mcDuffies wrote:Actually, it'd be fun to have alternative keenspace-type site, we could tell each others: "Bah, you and your crummy server!"

That would be called Drunk Duck.

EDIT: Damn, Ping, you beated me up.

By the way, Srdjan, please don't tell me you scanned your head...

RLC Davidson · Post by **RLC Davidson** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:02 pm

Alright, problems with DD (I speak from experience):

Auto-update service is subscription only (though I suppose you could get around this with Autokeen lite).

Lack of detailed statistics (all you get is a hit counter).

Extremely cluttered templates (I just stuck with th default, because I didn't want to have to mess around with that thing).

You can't change your comic's name once you sign up.

Lots of images that take up a lot of space which are required to be on your main page. (No less than three ads, the DD logo, and some others I can't recall at this point)

I'm sure there's more but I didn't stick around long enough to find out.

Xmung · Post by **Xmung** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:09 pm

yeah - all those things sound like a good reason not to be on DD

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:04 pm

Phalanx wrote: Erm, McD, one already exists. It's called DrunkDuck.

I still don't understand why a lot of the people here aren't inclined to take it seriously, because I do. IMHO, DD's been pretty impressive so far. The template thing may irritate some, but given how some of the Keenspace sites look and the amount of trouble people have with the Keenspace system, I'd say it isn't a bad thing in the end.

I stand corrected. DD is a competition and, like it or not, it's there.
I personaly don't like it because when going there I felt as if they he was sticking that "DD is the only real webcomic comunity" in my face and I think it's exact words he used, if not on site, then somewhere in forums.
Because of comments system they have. I hate it when people use those big words, nowadays everyone thinks he's a PR master.

Erm... I think there might be a "not" missing in front of Ghastly somewhere in there...

Another correction accepted. I edited it in original thread.

And for the record, I never did it for the money. Like I keep saying: I just like being appreciated.

I know. But if someone names money as a reason, I find it a strong reason.

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 9:05 pm

RPin wrote:By the way, Srdjan, please don't tell me you scanned your head...

I didn't scann my head.
I just shot myself holding a digital camera several times.
Then picked up the ugliest picture of all.

Ghastly · Post by **Ghastly** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 10:18 pm

mcDuffies wrote:I'm not cross with Phalanx, and I'm certainly not cross with Ghastly for going indy, they got damn good reason - money is a damn good reason).

It's not just the money, it's the fact that there's nowhere for me left to go on Keenspace. Now that Keen refuses to Spot adult humour comic strips I can't get promoted. Keen doesn't seem to be displaying any interest in really doing anything with my strip. There's no ad network banners on my site and Keen doesn't seem particularily motivated to sell targeted advertising on my site so apart from the newsbox promoting other Space comics (which I am more than happy to do) I'm not really doing anything for Keen anymore. Once Webcomic Nation is up and running there's really no reason for me to stay anymore, at least not my current comic. I'll probably run some little bit of fun on the old ghastly.keenspace.com account just so I can stay a part of the action in the community here, but otherwise what is there left for me on Keen.

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:09 am

Well, I really mentioned money as just one of possible reasons. Being where I am, you know why this one has a certain weight for me. But, for instance, being respected more than it's used on keenspace is another damn good reason.

Warren · Post by **Warren** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:29 am

Whoa... Silly Cone V ended....

I used to really enjoy that comic, but just sort of stopped reading a while back.

Post by **Kisai** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:41 am

Well here is why Keenspace isn't better than it currently is:
1. I have a full time job, one hour drive each way, so that's 10 hours on 5 days that I don't have time for keen. I try to get 8 hours of sleep and usually fail, that leaves two days, or three hours per working day that I might have time to work on keenspace. 350$/week, of which I have to spend now 70$ on gas and 50$ on food since I don't have time to actually buy groceries. If I didn't have this expense, or even have this job, I could devote more than enough time to Keenspace. Before I had the job I did the entire DB thing, I would not be able to re-do that from scratch with the time I have now.

2. There are 4 servers that are "keenspace", one where the comics are hosted, one where the DNS is stored, one where the forums are stored, and one where the advertisements are stored. I have access to only the one where the comics are stored. It took 2 months for someone to fix the DNS server, and 6 months for someone to fix the forums. The ad server I don't really need access to, but it's the sticky point for controlling ad content.

3. If I had access to the three servers I need and was being paid for it, then you'd see some rapid improvements in keenspace. But since the powers that be continue to ignore my requests for access to those servers, I have to setup a domain and tell people to wait 24 hours for it to work, only for it to not work 2 months later and them getting fed up and bailing. Likewise with the forums, I want to implement some of the changes that go-gaia did to make it scalable, but, again I do not have access to that server, so no new forums have been made since late 2002

4. I have not properly documented most of the stuff I've done on the server, and I'll probably never get the time to at this rate. Eventually some competition is going to take advantage of that and beat keenspace.

I'm not saying nate and gav need to do more, I'm saying that I want to do more, but don't have access, don't have time, don't have the money, and short of camping on the crosby's lawn with a power outlet and internet connection, I can not put in the time to add to keenspace. It's pretty much at maintenance levels.

Joeymanley · Post by **Joeymanley** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:13 am

Kisai:

My current contract with the admin person I have working on WCN is for a small percentage of WCN revenues. It wouldn't make any business sense to depend on somebody so important to the success of the venture without giving them a monetary reward. It's not because I'm a good guy so much as it is because I want them to, you know, stick around and do their thing.

That said, my admin may end up making next to nothing (if the project isn't successful) or a huge boatload of cash (if it is successful). So it's not the kind of thing even he can give up his/her full-time job for. Yet.

All of that said, if/when WCN is successful enough to pay somebody at least $350/week for admin -- I'll be knocking on your door, trying to recruit you. You've clearly done an amazing job with very limited resources.

Joey
http://www.moderntales.com

RPin · Post by **RPin** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:35 am

And once again Mr. Manley has shown more wisdom than Chris Crosby and the rest of the Fab Four.

Ghastly · Post by **Ghastly** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:55 am

To be fair to Chris, despite the fact that he and I have bumped heads on many issues I think he's pretty passionate about making Keen the webcomic community. It just seems that he lacks any real long term business sense about it. The problem seems to be made worse by the fact that Keen is ruled by committee and to make matters worse yet, it's a committe of 4. What this means is whenever an issue comes up concerning Keen that goes to vote it often ends up with a Chris/Teri vs. Nate/Gav tie and thus nothing ever gets done around here. They need a fifth partner in Keen in order to ensure there's a clear majority on any issue. This is why playoff series are always the best out of an odd number.

Paying in profit percentages is always great for grassroot projects and never costs anything out of pocket. There have been many projects I've worked on for a percentage basis some have paid off more in the end than have others. I find it does tend to motivate one more towards the good of the collective since your own interests are tied into it.

What really amazes me more than the fact that Kisai's work is unrewarded is the fact that she's even denied access to the tools she needs to do that work properly. There's no excuse for that.

To be honest it seems that Kisai suffers the same fate that Spacers suffer. Because Keen is a divided system with Spot vs Space for Keen's resources many of those on Spot tend to look down upon those of us on Space. It seems that because Kisai is the Space tech-grrrl and not the Spot tech-grrrl she's treated to the general lack of respect that Space artists get from within Keen.

Rkolter · Post by **Rkolter** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:58 am

$350 a week and a two hour daily commute?

Kisai, I mean... holy hell. Good babysitters can make $10 an hour. What are you doing for that kind of chickenfeed?

Jeez. Send me your resume. Big Blue's hiring network admins at $40k a year to start. It's low for the position, but the bennies are incredible and you can work from home. At the very least, I can bounce it along.

RPin · Post by **RPin** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:59 am

Ghastly wrote:To be honest it seems that Kisai suffers the same fate that Spacers suffer. Because Keen is a divided system with Spot vs Space for Keen's resources many of those on Spot tend to look down upon those of us on Space. It seems that because Kisai is the Space tech-grrrl and not the Spot tech-grrrl she's treated to the general lack of respect that Space artists get from within Keen.

And now the talent drain we're suffering is nearing her too. If there's a talent we cannot afford to lose, it's Kisai.

Chris Crosby · Post by **Chris Crosby** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:31 pm

mcDuffies wrote:You got to admit that you were extremely late with that:

Hey, I agree 100%, we take too long to Spot pretty much EVERYTHING.

How long did Sili Cone V, Framed, Basil Flint, Adventurers, Wapsi Square... had to go, and what they had to go through before you finally spotted them? And, what are you gonna do with Count Your Sheep, Elf Only Inn, other good comics of space?

All I can say is that I voted yes on ELF ONLY INN at least a year ago and COUNT YOUR SHEEP late last year. (Some of The Four hate it when I give away things like that, but everybody always blames ME SPECIFICALLY for being the moron who takes forever to Spot great strips, and they're probably not reading this thread anyway, so nyah nyah nyah.) All I knows is, I forced the change from unanimous to majority rules last year (which is basically what allowed us to invite most of the comics you mentioned above), and I can try my darndest to force other changes as well...

Oh, and, for the record, since stuff I often say can be missinterpretted, I don't hate people who leave keenspace...

For the record, me neither. I don't know if I would use KeenSPACE if I was starting my first strip right now. It works for some people and it doesn't for others.

Oh, and, I think first step to improving Keenspace, and a must, would be start paying admins. Really.

I agree wholeheartedly, although it should be noted that they ARE being paid SOMETHING. Certainly not $350 a week, or even $350 a month, but they're being paid something every quarter just like KeenSPOT's cartoonists are. It's a start.

TheGoobla · Post by **TheGoobla** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:39 pm

Chris Crosby wrote:All I can say is that I voted yes on ELF ONLY INN at least a year ago and COUNT YOUR SHEEP late last year. (Some of The Four hate it when I give away things like that, but everybody always blames ME SPECIFICALLY for being the moron who takes forever to Spot great strips, and they're probably not reading this thread anyway, so nyah nyah nyah.) All I knows is, I forced the change from unanimous to majority rules last year (which is basically what allowed us to invite most of the comics you mentioned above), and I can try my darndest to force other changes as well...

Good to see you're doing what you can!

* Fondles Chris *

Chris Crosby wrote:I agree wholeheartedly, although it should be noted that they ARE being paid SOMETHING. Certainly not $350 a week, or even $350 a month, but they're being paid something every quarter just like KeenSPOT's cartoonists are. It's a start.

So.... when did that start happening? Right now?

RPin · Post by **RPin** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:50 pm

TheGoobla wrote:
Chris Crosby wrote:All I can say is that I voted yes on ELF ONLY INN at least a year ago and COUNT YOUR SHEEP late last year. (Some of The Four hate it when I give away things like that, but everybody always blames ME SPECIFICALLY for being the moron who takes forever to Spot great strips, and they're probably not reading this thread anyway, so nyah nyah nyah.) All I knows is, I forced the change from unanimous to majority rules last year (which is basically what allowed us to invite most of the comics you mentioned above), and I can try my darndest to force other changes as well...
Good to see you're doing what you can!

I agree. Nice to know you put on vote EOI and CYS.

I should edit my messages, because I think I've been meaning you alone were the responsible for the negative points of Keenspace.

Chris Crosby · Post by **Chris Crosby** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:59 pm

TheGoobla wrote: Good to see you're doing what you can!

* Fondles Chris *

Either you are HATIN' me or you are FONDLIN' me! If I knew you KeenSPACErs had such loose morals I would have shut the place down long ago to please Aryan Jesus.

So.... when did that start happening? Right now?

Since late last year, I believe.