Keenspot - Keenspace?: Relations?

Ghastly · Post by **Ghastly** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 1:23 pm

Chris Crosby wrote: My proposal to the group included the idea that we be more actively vigilant as a policy in promoting 'SPACE sites to KeenSPOT. Doing just that would trim KeenSPACE pageviews down to 5-10 million pageviews monthly. The Top 25 'SPACE sites account for about 40% of 'SPACE's total pageviews, most of them are of a high enough quality (though I hate to use that term, subjective as it is) to get a 'SPOT invitation, and only 7 of them are rated "NC-17."

Why not create KeenNC17? Move the NC-17 comics on Space and on Spot there and then sell targeted advertising for that site to companies such as J-List and other adult businesses.

Then we don't have to worry about any of this "Ass Sex Makes Baby Jesus's Advertiser's Cry" bullshit.

Chris Crosby · Post by **Chris Crosby** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 1:23 pm

Ghastly wrote:So you yanked the ads off my site, but not off Fat Jesus? Sheeesh!

I don't think the advertiser's problem was that your strip mocked Jesus, but that it depicted Jesus (or Chick-Boy's Aryan version of Jesus) having sex.

Also, no one reads FAT JESUS.

Incidently, it wasn't Jesus graphically depicted having sexual relations, it was Chick-Boy's idealised Aryan vision of Jesus.

I understand that completely (and thought the strip was funny), but not everyone understands or cares about the nuances. And it's not like ANY version of Jesus portrayed in a comic strip (or a movie or whatever) is the ONE TRUE VERSION of Jesus.

Man. With all the tentacled loving, shemale shinanigans, and homoerotica on my site it's the picture of a long-haired blonde guy with a beard having missionary position sex that makes Keen yank the ads.

Yeah, kinda ironic.

So how many complaints did you get?

Just the one, I think. But it came from where it counts. If it was just from a reader, we wouldn't have pulled the ads. We wouldn't have pulled the ads except for because of a direct order from a major advertiser.

I got none.

I'm not surprised.

Instead of yanking the ads of all the pages why not just yank the ads off of that one?

They wanted their ads removed from every page on your site.

Ghastly · Post by **Ghastly** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 1:25 pm

Chris Crosby wrote: They wanted their ads removed from every page on your site.

Then why not start running J-List ads on my site instead. I certainly have no problems with J-List running ads on my site and I know for a fact they'd like that too.

Chris Crosby · Post by **Chris Crosby** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 7:54 pm

Ghastly wrote:Then why not start running J-List ads on my site instead. I certainly have no problems with J-List running ads on my site and I know for a fact they'd like that too.

I'm all for that. I just suggested it to those that can make that happen.

Post by **Kisai** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 9:30 pm

joeymanley wrote:I definitely didn't mean to imply it was free! Keenspace-like in that its open to the public to post comics when and wherever they want. Not free, though, unfortunately. If I launched a free service, it would have to be buggy, slow, and poorly implemented. Or else I couldn't afford to run it. That's just the way these things go. Sorry!

Joey
http://www.moderntales.com

I really should be insulted by that.

Before I ever started doing ANYTHING on keenspace, that pretty much described the state of keenspace, it kept crashing on a daily basis, if anyone remembers that. Simple dynamic virtual hosting system later, it was stable enough to run for weeks. Then the DB version in late 2002, switch from linux to freeBSD and the extra effort to put in features people wanted, that had disappeared since the server spun off of keenSPOT (newsbox, "list/guide", etc)

Free services are constantly abused, and without someone to keep the abuse in check, it quickly gets overrun and whoever puts their time into maintaining it throws in the towel and lets it burn to the ground.

...

Content sorting, switching out the code generated by ***advertisement*** depending on the external or internal rating, or one-up'ing that and have a opt-in/opt-out advertisement database (higher overhead)

There are a lot of problems with the javascript code as-is (mainly the three layers of javascript hell browsers have to go through to make it work, a bunch of ad's simply DO NOT work.) it can be simplified if the system was dynamic, but then the caching systems can be kissed goodbye and bandwidth goes up.

I've been seeing high amounts of broken ads lately. So I'm not sure what is up on Gav's end for that.

Ghastly · Post by **Ghastly** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 9:47 pm

Kisai wrote: Before I ever started doing ANYTHING on keenspace, that pretty much described the state of keenspace, it kept crashing on a daily basis, if anyone remembers that.

Believe me Kisai, were it not for you I would have blown Keenspace LONG ago. If the Fab Four had 1/8th your drive and ambition to make Space the place for webcomic artists to be it would be a webcomic paradise and would not be leaking talent at the rate it is. Nobody is certainly faulting you for Keenspace's faults.

What few top performing comics are still left on Space are no doubt only here because of the improvements you have made to the reliability of Space.

Free services are constantly abused, and without someone to keep the abuse in check, it quickly gets overrun and whoever puts their time into maintaining it throws in the towel and lets it burn to the ground.

*coff*geocities*coff*

Oh wait... it always sucked.

Ghastly · Post by **Ghastly** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 5:40 am

You know, looking through my archives today I have to tell you, without the ad banners at the top of my page my site loads lickety-split-super-mega-fast!

The number one complaint I hear from readers about being on Keenspace is "I don't like reading Keenspace comics, they're all way too slow" followed very closely by "Why is Keenspace down again" (which thankfully hasn't been much of a problem since the new server, fingers crossed).

Perhaps Keen should employ this little event as an opportunity to re-tool it's entire advertising engine.

From what I hear-tell, the entire merv/gavzad code is a kludge built on a patch built on a hack. If Keen is going to start running targeted advertising to the NC-17 comics (which would be a smart idea, not only to avoid future controversey with Burst but also to maximize advertising potential of such comics) it might also be a good idea to scrap the current adserver code completely and build something new, effecient, optimized and working. It shouldn't be taking more than a second to serve a tiny little banner ad. Since its the ads that are causing Keenspace to crawl, speeding up their display would go a long way towards repairing the reputation of Keenspace.

Joeymanley · Post by **Joeymanley** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 8:46 am

Kisai wrote: I really should be insulted by that.

No, you shouldn't. I said if I implemented a free server those things would be true. No implication was intended about existing free servers. For one thing, I'm not nearly as cuddly and sociable as Gav & Chris, so I doubt I'd be able to attract the amazing group of people who represent the community leadership tier that has been established at Keenspace. I'm too much of a control freak, too, to hand off admin chores to unpaid volunteers (as opposed to the paid people who will be helping me with WCN). So any free server I implemented would be awful. Just awful. Believe me, I've been sorely tempted to introduce a free level at WCN, just to poke a little at Keenspace and DrunkDuck, but the gargantuan nature of such a task repels me. My hat's off to those who attempt it -- especially to those who attempt it for as long and as successfully as the Keenspace crew.

I've said before that the webcomics site with the most great comics on it is Keenspace.com. I'll say it again. The webcomics site with the most great comics on it is Keenspace.com.

Finding them, though, can be problematic for those who aren't as well-versed in webcomics as all of us are.

But you knew that.

Joey
http://www.moderntales.com

Post by **STrRedWolf** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 2:47 pm

joeymanley wrote:I definitely didn't mean to imply it was free! Keenspace-like in that its open to the public to post comics when and wherever they want. Not free, though, unfortunately. If I launched a free service, it would have to be buggy, slow, and poorly implemented. Or else I couldn't afford to run it. That's just the way these things go. Sorry!

Joey
http://www.moderntales.com

Kisai wrote:I really should be insulted by that.

I'm insulted myself! I came on at the begining, eventually signing up to be a Wrangler, and now Sysadmin (with Kisai in tow now). BUGGY?!?! Not how we do things! SLOW?!?! Don't you even think about it now! Poorly Implimented?!? Please!!!! We're not the best, but we're working to improve it!

Before I ever started doing ANYTHING on keenspace, that pretty much described the state of keenspace, it kept crashing on a daily basis, if anyone remembers that. Simple dynamic virtual hosting system later, it was stable enough to run for weeks. Then the DB version in late 2002, switch from linux to freeBSD and the extra effort to put in features people wanted, that had disappeared since the server spun off of keenSPOT (newsbox, "list/guide", etc)

I definetly remember researching and putting in the Dynamic Virtual Hosting on the old Schlock server, before it died and was moved to Boardy. The DB was implimented by Kisai, and improved on. Then stuff that was implimented in javascript (the newsbox) was put in as offical under your supervison.

In effect, WORSHIP KISAI! That woman can code!

Faub · Post by **Faub** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 6:57 pm

STrRedWolf wrote:In effect, WORSHIP KISAI! That woman can code!

viewtopic.php?t=54115
WAY ahead of you on that one.

Joeymanley · Post by **Joeymanley** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 8:18 pm

What part of my post was insulting?

The part where I said that Keenspace has more great comics on it than any other server, or the part where I praised the amazing people who perform the role of community leadership?

Or maybe you didn't read all the posts before responding, and didn't even read the actual post you were responding to very carefully, so you didn't realize that none of my comments you quoted were directed at Keenspace: they were directed at some imaginary free server that I would be running in some imaginarily crappy way.

Which I thought was clear from the original post, but which I certainly believe I cleared up in the post immediately previous to yours.

Sheesh.

It's all good, guys. No reason to rush to hurt feelings. There's nothing but love. There's nothing but love.

Thanks.

Joey
http://www.moderntales.com

ZOMBIE USER 16849 · Post by **ZOMBIE USER 16849** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 9:12 pm

You said if your webcomic service were free, then it would have to be buggy/slow/etc -- you seemed to imply that good ol' Keenspace was as such.

But hey, we all misconstrue shit once in a while. It's all good.

While we're on the subject, I'm happy at keenspace. Keenspace has been ever so kind to me, when I've been a bitch to it. It lets me go on several-week breaks when life gets too harsh, and doesn't threaten to close my account, or anything. I can update once in a blue moon, and the only beef I'll ever get from it is from my readers.

It's also nice and simple, for all them HTML morons like myself. Did I mention, I get all giddy when I succeed in making text bold? Well, I do. It's quite sad.

I like the automatic update features. I like the simple tags you put into the templates. I really like the community. Now, I think if I were going to do this pro, then I would be raging about our lack of pay as some here have. So even though I don't really have any ambition for the profits I make, I support y'all!

...Or, I just want my twenty fucking dollars. *cries for more art pens*

RPin · Post by **RPin** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 2:12 am

Soap Committee wrote:Now, I think if I were going to do this pro, then I would be raging about our lack of pay as some here have. So even though I don't really have any ambition for the profits I make, I support y'all!

Neither do I. As I said earlier, I'm pretty satisfed with the service Keen provides me.

I'm only bitchy because I want people to stay on KeenSpace. I can understand how frustrating it must be for the top KeenSpacers to be pulling 100000k pageviews and not see a dime of the profit they make.

And with WCN, going indie will become so easy you won't have to wait for a higher number of readers to do so. Many of us don't do this for profit. But given the opportunity, I don't think many of us would not take it either.

Ghastly · Post by **Ghastly** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:33 am

joeymanley wrote:There's nothing but love. There's nothing but love.

Mmmmm... Sweet, sweet Manley love.

Post by **STrRedWolf** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 7:11 am

Well, I did take offense because Keenspace itself was a bit thrown together. It's DB was origionally flat-file. The hosting put in a new entry into the Apache config file for each new 'Spacer, and it grew Apache children so that it swapped massively.

When we switched to Dynamic Named Virtual Hosting in Apache, the kids went on a massive diet. It doesn't swap anymore.

MySQL was simmilarly tuned, and when we went with FreeBSD and it's better memory management, things just started flying.

<i>And now for something different...</I>

I saw you used the Alexa stats on various sites. If you Googled for alexa spyware you'll find tons of sites on how to remove it. I think those stats of various comics declining isn't a factor of various leakage of clients -- I think it's because those viewers are getting the hidden junk off their systems!

Joeymanley · Post by **Joeymanley** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 1:40 pm

Okay, one last thought on the "Keenspace vs. WebcomicsNation" thing.

Keenspace and WCN are not direct competition for one another. For one thing, WCN requires account holders to pay for their accounts, and allows for any domain name (http://www.yourdomainname.com) at the two higher levels of service. Keenspace obviously doesn't require payment, doesn't currently support random domain names (I think, I could be wrong), but puts ads on cartoonist's pages (which WCN doesn't do). It's a totally different business model designed to serve totally different needs.

However, and this is an important point: anybody who wanted to launch a direct competitor to Keenspace could do so, using WCN, and a $20 super-premium "Publisher" account (our accounts start off much lower than that).

In addition to giving you the tools you need to sell, schedule, and track ads, the "Publisher" account allows for you to host as many strips, by as many cartoonists, as you wish -- and even create a control panel/upload/scheduling/maintenance interface for each cartoonist you invite, so they manage their own comics themselves.

So you could very easily set up something like Keenspace, or DrunkDuck, or even Keenspot or Modern Tales for that matter, invite cartoonists to join, and run your own portal, selling your own ads, either keeping all the ad money to yourself, or splitting it with the cartoonists on your service, depending on the deal you have with them.

You don't have to know PHP, Perl, MySQL or, for that matter, even HTML or CSS (though you can use those last two as much as you want).

You don't have to invest in a large server infrastructure.

You don't have to create an interface for cartoonists to update their comics.

You don't have to install ad management or forum management software.

It's all done for you.

You just have to fork over twenty bucks, and be the front-line for cartoonist technical support issues (I'll support you, you'll support the cartoonists under you -- makes my life easier).

I expect this to be the primary use made of those "Publisher" accounts. In fact, it is designed specifically for this use. I also expect for groups of people to go in together on these account. Twenty cartoonists paying one dollar a month for a Keenspot-like website with all the technical and hosting stuff handled for them. And they keep all the ad money.

Sounds like a deal to me.

I could be wrong.

But, you know, just FYI.

Joey
http://www.moderntales.com

War · Post by **War** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 1:56 pm

They do allow your own domain, it just takes Kisai a while to force Gav to make the necessary changes at his end.
And darnit, you make that publisher option sound very attractive.

[AlmightyPyro] · Post by **[AlmightyPyro]** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 2:26 pm

*sings*
I'm proud to be a KeenSpacian,
Where atleas I know pay is free.
And I'll gladly stand up..

I forgot how the rest of the actual song goes so I'll stop.

I totaly support Keenspace all the way. I know that when it comes down to it I'm like a minute little speck of nothing compared to al the other KeenSpacers [especially War], but if it wasn't for KeenSpace I'd still be at the very bottom of the comicing/drawing/talent pole. infact I'd be so far down that I have to crawl up it a bit to even be at ground level! But in the past 3 or 4 months I've been on I've improved alot! Now I'm about third from the bottom of the pole, but atleast there are people below me!

I could care less if other servers are faster or less bugg-ish, shoot, this forum itself is completely awsome! It gives me insintive to try harder at my skills as a drawer...drawwer... one who draws. And I give 7 thumbs up to all of you who has made this site what it is! And when I become dictator of the world, I shall give you all a huge some of money, and buy you houses, and cars, and animals. And then ya'll will be my official comic.. type.. people...

*scribles in his memo-pad real fast*

Ghastly · Post by **Ghastly** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 3:06 pm

Even for one comic artist alone a publisher account would be great. $20 a month is nothing for a comic like mine to make monthly in revinue (be it ad or merchandising revinue). Considering I'm planning to start doing more comic series and mini series in the future the publisher account looks really good to me. I'd essentually be forming my own online publishing company that's promoting only myself (at least for now). The comic automation on the accounts is the big sell for a lazy-assed bastard like me who knows HTML well enough but doesn't have the time or motivation to learn PHP and the advertising automation on the publisher account is like the icing on the cake.

You've certainly got me chomping at the bit here Joey.

McDuffies · Post by **McDuffies** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 3:49 pm

Since you said you're not fed up with complaints, I'll get back to this:

Chris Crosby wrote:You exclude the fact that the majority of strips invited to KeenSPOT in the past three years were on (gasp!) KeenSPACE originally. And I, for one, try to read every KeenSPACE strip I can in hopes of spotting the next 'SPOT superstar. (Yesterday I was looking at random 'SPACE strips from the Guide and happened to see one that was doing a SUPEROSITY parody strip that day, of all things.)

You got to admit that you were extremely late with that:
How long did Sili Cone V, Framed, Basil Flint, Adventurers, Wapsi Square... had to go, and what they had to go through before you finally spotted them? And, what are you gonna do with Count Your Sheep, Elf Only Inn, other good comics of space? Wait five more years until you finally decide that they're good enough to be spotted? Well, Silli Cone V ended soon after it was spotted.
Most comics from Space you spotted were, well, you know, blind man would spot them (no pun intended).

On other topics:
MT is not competition to KS, they're two totally different kinds of services. Another free host would be a competition.
Actually, it'd be fun to have alternative keenspace-type site, we could tell each others: "Bah, you and your crummy server!"

I'm all for free competition. It would certainly lead to improving both services.

You Chris, are monopolist, concearning free comic hosting right now.

Oh, and, for the record, since stuff I often say can be missinterpretted, I don't hate people who leave keenspace, specially if they're doing it with oportunity to earn money (I'm not cross with Phalanx, and I'm certainly not cross with Ghastly for going indy, they got damn good reason - money is a damn good reason).
I just don't like those who forget what keenspace did for them. And in most cases, people come to space as newbies in online comics, confused, maybe even frightened, with more or less drawing and writing skills - thanks to hosting and keenspace's system of promotion, months later they're real artists, with self-confidence, ideas and, actually, something to show.
What strikes me is when people forget it. When they act as if it never did anything good to them. When they act as if they actually had to pay for it and (oh dear) didn't get what goes for that price.

Oh, and, I think first step to improving Keenspace, and a must, would be start paying admins. Really.