Comic Genesis Forums

Phalanx wrote:

mcDuffies wrote:Yep, just what I was about to say. Why did you have to let her leave just to have to get her back from MT?
And why do you have to get artists from MT, isn't it much easier to get them directly from Space?
Really, does ModernTales have to point you at what's good?

Chris Crosby wrote:Yes

*grin* Heh.

Although it still strikes me as odd that you'd forfeit your right of the first pick of the good comics to MT.

Isn't prevention better than cure?

Seems like just a little skewed business sense to me, but I assume you have some inscrutable wisdom for doing so that we mere mortals are not privy to.

Now, Spot This Sheep! Please? If you consider Modern Tales the 'stamp of goodness' on a comic necessary, then he's has that too. MT has his other series already.

It's not so much a matter of "first pick." This isn't major league baseball, thank God

Meredith moved Skirting Danger to Keenspot because she felt she'd have a better readership there. It was her call to make, and we all support her in it. A good comic is a good comic, regardless of who is hosting it.

Interesting enough, a few of Graphic Smash creators also have comics on Keenspot, Graveyard Greg and John Troutman.

At any rate, I think it's good to have healthy competition between Modern Tales and Keenspot, it encourages us all to work harder and improve the qaulity of our respective comics. In a way, I'd like to think of us all working together to make web comics a healthier, more stable industry.

mcDuffies wrote: As I see their situation, they have to keep exclusivity of keenspot by keeping number of comics around 50, and if they spotted every comic on keen that deserves it, they'd certqainly overcrowd it and you'd get a few hundreds of comics of main page of spot - thus promotional system of spot looses efficiency.

To be honest, if they would treat their producing Space comics with a little more dignity and respect there wouldn't really be a need to leave for Spot or Modern Tales.

Give us equal access to mechandising. Give us the same promotional tools. Give us a share of the profits equal to the share of the profits the spotters get. Give us the same reliable hosting.

Spot can be as exclusive as it wants to be just treat those of us on Space who are producing results despite the fact we're stuck on Space the same way you treat your Spotters.

Is it really so shocking that popular Spacers would want to leave when comics who are pulling in fewer readers on Spot are being fawned over by Keen. Treat us all the same based on our merits and I could give two shits who is on Space and who is on Keen.

As for LWIBH, as Crosby said, and problematic graphic in it is very stylised to the point where it's not so problematic anymore. LWIBH is very poor comic but it stays there as some kind of monument of old webcomics from the time when we didn't even know webcomics exist. For that, I would vote it on spot if asked.
And bringing up LWIBH as issue every time we mention spotting SL is like asking "Why not" every time someone asks "Why".

No when the issue is "Sexy Losers might offend too many people because it's pornography" then bringing up LWIBH is a very valid argument. Crosby et al have yet to provide a good answer on that one. Shit, bringing up "Sore Thumbs" is a very valid argument. Chris's new comic gets greenlighted for Spot when it's nature is designed to piss off about 50% of the American population. The conservative right that Crosby is so worried about offending with adult humour comics doesn't seem to be an issue when it comes to left leaning political comics. [/quote]

But as for Chris, Gav, and the rest of fab four, they have yet to do something I wouldn't justify with incompetence. And incompetence is not a sin here

Incompitence is one thing, and it is forgivable to a certain extent, however what we see happening here is downright willful ignorance. They know what the problem is, they know what to do about it. They're sticking their fingers in their ears and singing "lalalalalaaaa I can't hear you" in hopes that by ignoring the problem it will somehow magically go away on it's own.

They've been maintianing for over a year that maybe, sometime, possibly, in the future they'll examine the likelyhood of perhaps doing something to improve the situation yet there is absolutely no outward evidence that Keen intends to do anything but maintain the status quo.

Seriously, is it any wonder MT is swallowing up the Keenspace talent pool, especially since Keen is reluctant to admit any talent lies there to begin with.

Believe me, my voice of dissention has nothing to do with Keen-bashing. I'm fiercely loyal to Space. If I wasn't I would have gone indie long ago. It's not like I haven't had enough pressure to leave.

Perhaps it's a result of being Canadian, we're a country of complainers. We don't have the same "Love it or leave it" attitudes that tend to prevail south of the border. We don't have this "For us or with them" mindset. We constantly bitch and moan and push our governing officials to improve our country. What I do on Space is no different from what I do with my MP and MPP. When I see something wrong I bitch about it to them, and I encourage others who are likewise dismayed to bitch about it too.

I think that's what pisses me off when people like T. Campbell write about the "disloyalty of Keenspacers". If I want to see Space become something better than it is the most disloyal thing I could do would be to remain silent over its problems and negative issues, or even worse to pack up and leave. As long as I have hope that change will come I can still stay on Space.

BD wrote:At any rate, I think it's good to have healthy competition between Modern Tales and Keenspot, it encourages us all to work harder and improve the qaulity of our respective comics. In a way, I'd like to think of us all working together to make web comics a healthier, more stable industry.

I have to agree with that. The migration seems to have gotten Chris's notice, at least. He did mention this was something he'd hope to give more attention to in the future. A little more attention is always good. Nothing is more galling than being ignored or neglected.

I can sympathise with Meredith on moving to Keenspot. Being on GS is great, but one does miss having a freely accessible archive.

I know I do. Maybe I should start another free comic.

If I have the time, that is.

Ghastly wrote: Give us the same reliable hosting.

Heh.

But honestly, I beginning to think the more we keeping gnawing at this subject, the more it's beginning to feel like we're all harping on the same string here to the ones in charge. (Chris and co)

And the more probable they'll automatically stop listening the moment we bring it up.

No, you can't make anyone listen to you if they don't want to.

The best you can do is go away and find someone who will.

I'm so tired of this. I think I'm going to stop.

Sometimes I begin to wonder if I care anymore.

Ghastly wrote: I think that's what pisses me off when people like T. Campbell write about the "disloyalty of Keenspacers". If I want to see Space become something better than it is the most disloyal thing I could do would be to remain silent over its problems and negative issues, or even worse to pack up and leave. As long as I have hope that change will come I can still stay on Space.

I may be biased because T is the GS editor, Ghastly, but from my take on that article, I think it meant the Keenspacers' loyalty to Keenspot, not to Keenspace.

But I agree, the most disloyal thing would be to use Keenspace and just discard it like a used tissue the moment the opportunity comes along...

...

Phalanx wrote:But I agree, the most disloyal thing would be to use Keenspace and just discard it like a used tissue the moment the opportunity comes along...

...

Don't say that... It's not like you left KeenSpace complaining about the bad service it provides like most people do. I think you are still very loyal to KeenSpace.

Anyways, yes, I can sense Chris Crosby must be getting very fed up about this complaints. I agree with everything Ghastly says, but in the end, it's Crosby company, and who am I to tell him how he should run it? Everything I said, is because I don't want the people who make this community so great to leave it because their comics grew too much to stay here.

Here's something I made out of boredom...

I really can't fault anyone who has left Keenspace. They've simply lost hope that any future remains for them within Keen and I can't blame them for feeling that way. I'm not yet ready to give up hope that Keen can be saved.

Even if I pull Ghastly's Ghastly Comic off Keenspace to go independent with it, I'll probably still employ ghastly.keenspace.com for a different comic, probably one without any real theme or update schedule. Every couple of months I'll upload some random comic thought that doesn't fit in with Ghastly's Ghastly Comic just to remain part of the Keenspace community.

Ghastly's Ghastly Comic might not have a future with Keen but that doesn't mean I'll be no longer interested in Keen's future.

As for the MT migration catching Keen's attention. I'm sure it's something they've known about for ages, but unless they start seeing a mass exodus of Keenspot comics going to MT they simply won't care. What is MT taking, Keenspace comics for the most part. If Keen hasn't shown any interest in exploiting its own talent base on Keenspace I'm pretty sure they couldn't give two shits about somebody else using them.

Phalanx wrote:

Ghastly wrote: Give us the same reliable hosting.

Heh.

out of curiosity, I typed in a series of names using googlism, including Chris Crosby. Several were nice. Some were not. This one was the most amusing:

chris crosby is still calling me a dyke from the 5th grade

TheGoobla wrote:Well hey! Spot me too while you're at it!

Oh hell, spot us all!

Granted. We're all dalmations.

oops. Wrong thread.

Ghastly wrote:As for the MT migration catching Keen's attention. I'm sure it's something they've known about for ages, but unless they start seeing a mass exodus of Keenspot comics going to MT they simply won't care. What is MT taking, Keenspace comics for the most part. If Keen hasn't shown any interest in exploiting its own talent base on Keenspace I'm pretty sure they couldn't give two shits about somebody else using them.

They don't seem to care because they can afford to. If a popular comic leaves, another comes to fill its place. KeenSpace pretty much holds the monopoly of free hosting for webcomics, so there's always going to be new people here. The only thing that could change this is if another webcomic hosting, one with real prospect of profit sharing came to the market. The way things are now, I do believe it's more profitable to Keen to sit around and do nothing.

RPin wrote:KeenSpace pretty much holds the monopoly of free hosting for webcomics, so there's always going to be new people here. The only thing that could change this is if another webcomic hosting, one with real prospect of profit sharing came to the market.

A business like that could be started for less than you think, for the ambitious person who wants to put the time into it.

I'd be surprised if someone doesn't do it soon, with the ad market returning.

Someone on this thread (Chris maybe -- it's a long thread) mentioned that webcomics traffic generally may have slowed over the past couple of months.

I have to say I'm not seeing it.

MT, a subscription-based site, will never be as popular as Keenspot, which is all free. I don't think I'd get any argument there. But it does seem that their traffic is generally going down, while ours is hovering steady, just below (and sometimes peeking above) the top 100,000 sites mark. We've done particularly well this month, actually.

From Alexa:



Our highest point is dangerously close to Keenspot's lowest point. Or should I say, "deliciously"?

That's just Modern Tales, not the entire Modern Tales family of sites, by the way.

Graphic Smash, which is actually our most popular site (in terms of overall traffic, not in terms of paying subscribers) actually stays above the top 100,000 sites more often than it dips below. But it, like Keenspot, does indeed seem to be slowly trending downward a little bit over the past couple of months.



GS seems to have a greater crossover audience with Keenspot (just from reading the GS forums -- I have no solid evidence of that statement). So maybe it's a particular thing that's happening to one group of readers.

I dunno.

Long live Keen! Long live MT! Both businesses are solid, and the success of one does not interfere with the success of the other. Like I've said elsewhere, it's not "Coke vs. Pepsi" so much as it's "Coke vs. Milk" -- we're sort of the same, but we're not, and you'd never want one when you're in the mood for the other.

As for MT and Keenspace -- we'll continue to recruit great comics, when we have openings (which is seldom) -- regardless of where they're currently hosted. We don't have a deliberate "raid Keenspace" policy. But we don't have a prejudice against Keenspace comics, either, obviously. We'll be launching our own Keenspace-like service soon. Not as soon as I originally thought -- but, still, soon. I hope to see many of you there!

Joey
http://www.moderntales.com

joeymanley wrote: We'll be launching our own Keenspace-like service soon. Not as soon as I originally thought -- but, still, soon. I hope to see many of you there!

I'm very interested to know more about this. Will there be profit sharing with the artists? Will it have the same site design flexibility that Keenspace has?

joeymanley wrote:Long live Keen! Long live MT! Both businesses are solid, and the success of one does not interfere with the success of the other. Like I've said elsewhere, it's not "Coke vs. Pepsi" so much as it's "Coke vs. Milk" -- we're sort of the same, but we're not, and you'd never want one when you're in the mood for the other.

Yes, I agree. From the reader's point of view, specially if he's already a subscriber of Modern Tales, what difference does it make where a comic is hosted? But when it comes to the artist's point of view, it makes all the difference. Which leads to my point:

joeymanley wrote: We'll be launching our own Keenspace-like service soon. Not as soon as I originally thought -- but, still, soon. I hope to see many of you there!

You start a service with real prospect of awarding artists for their merits, and I can tell not many of us are going to stay here. I know I wouldn't.

Ghastly wrote:

joeymanley wrote: We'll be launching our own Keenspace-like service soon. Not as soon as I originally thought -- but, still, soon. I hope to see many of you there!

I'm very interested to know more about this. Will there be profit sharing with the artists? Will it have the same site design flexibility that Keenspace has?

Artists will be able to go into business for themselves using this service, and sell their own advertisements, for example. Or launch subscription services. Or micropayments. Or none of the above.

We've already spoken with a couple of high profile Keenspacers or former Keenspacers who will be launching new strips with the new service. One in particular who I think you're quite a fan of, Ghastly.

I didn't mean to come here and plug a competing service, so I'll keep mum on the URL and the details, out of respect for the site owners. We're not keeping it a secret, and details can be found elsewhere.

Thanks!

Joey
http://www.moderntales.com

joeymanley wrote:Artists will be able to go into business for themselves using this service, and sell their own advertisements, for example. Or launch subscription services. Or micropayments. Or none of the above.

I hope to see this service implemented soon. I think I read about it *somewhere else*, but I had no idea it was a free webhosting you were talking about.

My bad...

I definitely didn't mean to imply it was free! Keenspace-like in that its open to the public to post comics when and wherever they want. Not free, though, unfortunately. If I launched a free service, it would have to be buggy, slow, and poorly implemented. Or else I couldn't afford to run it. That's just the way these things go. Sorry!

Joey
http://www.moderntales.com

Aaaah~

Then yes, it was exactly what I was reading about.

RPin wrote:I think you are still very loyal to KeenSpace.

If Keenspace = Keenspace Forums, then yes.

Given the course of events, I suspect it's mainly because of you guys are here.

RPin wrote: Aaaah~

Then yes, it was exactly what I was reading about.

God Bless Comixpedia

On further research, apparantly there does seem to be evidence of a downward trend for many popular webcomics:





Joey
http://www.moderntales.com

joeymanley wrote: Artists will be able to go into business for themselves using this service, and sell their own advertisements, for example. Or launch subscription services. Or micropayments. Or none of the above.

We've already spoken with a couple of high profile Keenspacers or former Keenspacers who will be launching new strips with the new service. One in particular who I think you're quite a fan of, Ghastly.

I didn't mean to come here and plug a competing service, so I'll keep mum on the URL and the details, out of respect for the site owners. We're not keeping it a secret, and details can be found elsewhere.

Okay, I know which site you're talking about now. It's the Webcomics Nation service, right? I took a peek about there and it seemed very interesting indeed. I was planning to go idependent with EV1 Servers (formerly known as Rack Shack) what with the 10 cents/gigabyte prices. Granted, I don't think I'll ever use a full 1000gb a month (I could almost multiply my current bandwidth by 6 times on a site like that) . That's a pretty sweet deal, the only problem is there's absolutely no webcomic specific automation on it at all so until I learn some PHP it looks like I'll be stuck.

The Publisher Account on Webcomics Nation looks really sweet. Only $20 a month and it looks like plenty of comic specific automation features. I don't think I'll be able to resist the lure of independence once you get this service up and running. I'll not only be able to run my current Ghastly's Ghastly Comic from the site but it would seem all my future comic projects as well.

Certainly looks interesting to say the least. Can't wait to see it completed. Hope it doesn't turn out to be another Keenprime.

The Downward Trend:

The traffic flow itself could be remaining relatively the same, the thing is, their rank could be getting knocked down due to any number of reasons. For example, new peeps just getting the internet and unaware of the good websites. This doesnt necessarily indicate a drop in readership