Artistic vs. Cheap laugh

Maelstrom32 · Post by **Maelstrom32** » Sun Aug 26, 2001 9:46 am

I've traveled a very long way from site to site and popularity is an odd and often terrifying subject.People want it so badly that the sometimes loose sight of some things that are really important
self-search, style quality, and most of all it is good to view keenspace as a learning experience.
TO those of you who try to rise above tired jokes and exhausted character designs I salute you and now I raise the question
is it better to be popular by riding on other cartoonists shoulders or is it better to break away be yourself and get two hits.http//:lolm.keenspace.com

Maelstrom32 · Post by **Maelstrom32** » Mon Aug 27, 2001 2:15 am

i'm so happy you guys are responding
to me this is a VERY important subject
I started out years ago as a copy cat
a wannabe but It was just not good.
its wrong to work off others its
And things that have been used so many times before..this brings up a new question
do you think that you cannot put REAL ART into a comic? can a comic be viewed as a REAL ARTFORM? or is it just something for horny comic book nerds to get off on?
I try sooo hard to make my art like a tapestry in comic form but it takes alot of work and i somethimes wonder if it is worth it...is it better to bow down to furry plain level and just do a blank outline
I think that your own style is what MAKES a story not just an ADDON
I do not wish to offend anyone!
but maybe this way I can make some new allies that agree with me.
thank you all <A HREF="http://.lolm.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>http://.lolm.keenspace.com</A>

Toddandpenguin · Post by **Toddandpenguin** » Mon Aug 27, 2001 7:06 am

I went to your site and the artwork is very nice. Anyway, answering your question: Deciding which is better depends on your goals. If your goal is to be *popular* then do whatever it takes, including riding others shoulders. This may or may not work, I don't know. Popularity on the web is something entirely different than popularity where you can make money at this. There are tons of people who are just imitating each other. Some knowingly, others because it is their first steps at comics, and they are just doing what inspired them. Just like a writer's early stuff is often flavored by those who they like. In time, dedicated artists come into their own. In my opinion, it is best to do what you want to do. There is no surefire way to success. However, if you believe you are doing something worthy and artistic, then in the end, that can be a reward unto itself. You have created something that other people enjoy. There's nothing better, in my opinion. To all those concerned with hit counts, you should learn how to market yourself on the web, exchange links with artists whom you like, do some fan art, etc...There are a lot of comics out there, and nobody will ever know how great yours is unless you take an active stance towards promoting it.anyway, thats my opinion on this... ps: mealstrom, you need to fix your signature link. it reads http//: instead of <A HREF="http://." TARGET=_blank>http://.</A> ~dave------------------
<A HREF="http://toddandpenguin.keenspace.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://toddandpenguin.keenspace.com/</A>

Spartacus · Post by **Spartacus** » Mon Aug 27, 2001 7:28 am

What about all the Naked Teen Girls having sex with each other comics?! Man, those suck....Seriously, it took me awhile to figure out what I wanted to do. Then I came to this conclusion; do it for yourself. Don't worry about pleasing other people. Write and draw from the heart, make your own vision of a web comic. Popularity should be a non issue when it comes to how and why you want to do a comic. We are story tellers in a very young medium, it's only begun for comics. I'm sick of people saying they can't think of anything new...BULLSHIT! Sit down, close your eyes, and think of a story. Better yet, incorporate a dream, or day-dream you've had. Everyone thinks in different ways. If we could all just see comics as our own personal outlet for our ideas, instead of worrying about how many hits we get, or if people really like us or not, then imagine the creative things we'd see.------------------
I was <A HREF="http://zapjones.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Zap Jones</A> But now, I am <A HREF="http://highfalutin.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Highfalutin!</A> Spartacus!!!

Zubkavich · Post by **Zubkavich** » Mon Aug 27, 2001 7:56 am

Well,I'm going for a romantic-comedy/drama story when my web comic finally launches (still waiting for Keenspace membership to come through). Before I commited to doing it, I did quite a bit of research.I've decided to try something different rather than attempt to tussle a genre or web comic type that was being beaten to death. You may get hits initially based on ripping off a style or humor from another web comic, but eventually the novelty will fade or the fans will get sick of seeing yet another- whatever...From what I've seen so far, it would be quite difficult to make a new strip of the following:- 8 bit graphics copying (Final Fantasy, Mega Man)
- Manga (for the most part)
- Furry (anthropomorphic)
- Stick Man type stuffwithout being compared to the many, many others like it out there. You'd have to be regular, very funny and market yourself like crazy to stand out amongst the crowd. I don't even think the residule web hits would happen just because your comic looks like someone else's.Most importantly though, I think people should draw something that interests them. If you like what you're doing, you'll stay inspired longer and put more time into it. It's impossible to figure out what the internet fandom will like next. Trying to follow a trend will only get tedious for you, and you'll lose the will to keep working at it. Doing what you want will take less effort and the fans you get for it will be genuine.Okay, that was a long blab... I'm done for now.------------------
-----------------------------------------
Jim Zubkavich
http://www.geocities.com/zubkavich/ZUB.html
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Cry when you must. Laugh when you can. Shout. Scream. Run.
Fly kites. Live."- from 'The Invisibles' by Grant Morrison
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Pegaso · Post by **Pegaso** » Mon Aug 27, 2001 7:58 am

A friend once told me he liked watching comics "find themselves, like they are their own entity". That couldn't be more true. I think the art in comics are in that, along with the actual drawing, sketching, or doodling. I'm not the best artist in the world, I know, and my computer ability lacks severly, but as long as I stay true to what I know is funny...I hope to continue for awhile. I like to think that people can tell when someone is writing genuinely from the heart and not carbon-copying someone else.The same friend recently said he liked the way my strip was growing.Hope that helped...Nathan <A HREF="http://abetterlifethanthis.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>http://abetterlifethanthis.keenspace.com</A> ------------------

ScumBunny · Post by **ScumBunny** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 12:39 am

I'm relatively sure I'm not making it "actually funny". But either way, the point I was trying to make is that quality is in the eyes of the beholder. Do your comic as well as you possibly can, read the ones you like most, and avoid the rest.
If a guy likes drawing front facing furry manga chicks with no arms and has people who like reading it, well, good for them. No harm done to the rest of us, right?------------------
"Suicide note...suicide note...Damn! Writer's block again!"
Scum Bunny
http://scumbunny.keenspace.com

SuperJoe · Post by **SuperJoe** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 1:19 am

Hey. Mega Man IS used in a bunch of places.
And, guess what...
I use him too. Why? Just because he was in one strip, one time, and the responce to him was that people liked him. So I brought him back.But... my comic still doesn't appeal to that many people.------------------
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Toddandpenguin · Post by **Toddandpenguin** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 6:12 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SuperJoe:
Hey. Mega Man IS used in a bunch of places.
And, guess what...
I use him too. Why? Just because he was in one strip, one time, and the responce to him was that people liked him. So I brought him back.But... my comic still doesn't appeal to that many people.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>(Joe) I like it! Your comic is very original in it's quirkiness.~dave------------------
<A HREF="http://toddandpenguin.keenspace.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://toddandpenguin.keenspace.com/</A>

The Joester · Post by **The Joester** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 6:33 am

geesWhat if you...like...started your comic with some form in mind, so your comic started out completely original...but then you said what you had to say and then you had nothing else to do but meld in other people's comics just so it wouldn't have to end? hypothetically. ------------------
<A HREF="http://situationnowhere.keenspace.com/" TARGET=_blank>~Joe</A>

Maelstrom32 · Post by **Maelstrom32** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 6:51 am

all of the people responding like Spartacus and ToddandPenguin and all of you are just the people i was talking about. you are individuals who don't do these things to impress your friends!
how many sites have you guys seen in which everything was just some inside joke depicted with a cat girl with anime eyes
or someone trying to do something they want people to think they are.
look at me i drew this comic! i'm a goth!
be impressed. these are the kind of behaviors that make me question the human race.
a great comic artist named Scott McCloud
once said that a true artist
breaks step away from the parade of humanity
sees the world sees the parade
and sees inside
then they do something about it
we do this by creating something original and meaningful to both the artist and the viewer
<A HREF="http://.lolm.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>http://.lolm.keenspace.com</A>

KathleenJ · Post by **KathleenJ** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 9:53 am

I agree with you 100%. i like to think i took the 'artistic' route...my comic gets all emotional rather than funny a lot of the time, and it's totally from the heart. i don't really care about being the most popular...but i love that there are people that have found it and really seem to like what i'm doing. i know my ideas aren't totally original, because nothing is. but i like to think there's nothing out there quite like the stuff i do. and i hope over time it can evolve into something really meaningful. so, in general, i think there's more merit in creating something from your own heart, even if it's horrible and nobody likes it, than in copying whatever's popular. i kinda believe that if something's actually intelligent and good, it'll find an audience. maybe not an audience in the mainstream, but an audience nonetheless.
good Scott McCloud quote, too.------------------
yep, i have <A HREF="http://coolville.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>comics!</A>

Jaimiel · Post by **Jaimiel** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 10:43 am

Lunchbox, baby, hiya. :3 Fweet.Blah, you know me, I'm the copying artist of them all . . . then I develop my own style. I need to start out copying and work up. A lot of times it won't move beyond a copy so I stop the idea 'coz I want it to be original and I am thoroughly disappointed. And mostly my copying ends up being some kinda parodying, which is actually okay in terms.

But if it's not a parody I bitchslap myself.I'm sick of seeing anime. Bad anime at that. O_o;;; Or manga, whatever. I started out with <a href="http://aerochild.keenspace.com">an anime style comic</a>, and you can definitly tell Naoko Takeuchi inspired me, and the main story is ripped off from MST3K, but I'm not ashamed of this story because it's my own story, I've turned it into something completely me. And I don't THINK I'm ripping anyone off in the webcomic community 'coz I don't read many comics. (No time/no interest/many bite/etc.) But when you look around at other manga style comics you can't tell one from another, and half of them are girls standing face front with creepy eyes, deformed bodies, and their hands are constantly behind their backs.Then I started an <a href="http://something.keenspace.com">American style one</a> which style was ripped off from Jhonen Vasquez. It was really ugly too. But within a few weeks I've developed my own style, and it still IS being developed as we speak. However the humor can be very repetitive. *shrug* Surprisingly, people like that one more than my manga style comic. I haven't seen many American style comics to compare or give examples of, except for the Keenspot comics, but those are more "professional." But I know of a lot of people that are bringing out comics, or trying to, by kids younger than 14 that think the words "penis" and "fuck" are so utterly funny that they'll have blood and guts flying around as characters are screaming stupid obscenities. They make me ill.Like some said, if all you want is popularity, you won't give a crap about being original. You'll rip off whatever you can to get those hits. *I* want to be popular, of course, but I'm not in a hurry/don't want to demean myself in order to get more hits. :/And as for art in comic strips, I guess it could be done, but it wouldn't be a fun comic to read. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/tongue.gif"> Unless if you take paintings and insert word balloons, but you know, that's not what that is. Drawing is a form of art, of course, and it can be extremely beautiful, but many wouldn't compare a comic page to, you know, Picasso or daVinci.

;; Maybe one day, if we work hard enough and kill people it can be.--
Love, Bialy
<a href="http://aerochild.keenspace.com">Aero Child</a>
&
<a href="http://something.keenspace.com">Something</a>

Scrubbo · Post by **Scrubbo** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 10:50 am

Looking at this question from a different perpective.....You've GOTTA do this for yourself to a certain extent, or you will burn out and scream and tear your hair.On the other hand, it's easy to SAY "Don't care about your numbers!" but it's hard to do. And I think you're fooling yourself a little if you say "I don't care about the numbers at all!" Everybody who does this has a voice and wants to be heard. Even if only by a few. If you really didn't care about people seeing your work, you wouldn't post it on the web. It's a sin of vanity that we're all guilty of.So admit that the numbers bug you a little. They bug everybody, no matter how many hits they get. "I could be getting more! I SHOULD be getting more!"As long as you realize that some of your frustration is due to that, it's fairly easy to deal with said frustration.As to standing out from the crowd and doing your own thing.......Well, looking at the strips I read, MOST of them are "non standard" strips. The most popular strip I read is Sluggy, and personally, I think it defined a genre for itself, and possibly even defined webcomics. Kevin and Kell is another strip I read. And the only "furry" strip I read. How could you not compare other furry strips to it?I read a couple of syndicated strips.... Doonesbury, Dilbert, Foxtrot, For Better Or For Worse... mainly because they tend to occasionally have more intelligent humor than the other strips out there.Sinfest is my one dip into the morass of pandering. Why? Because Tat, believe it or not, is openly mocking said pandering in his strip. He gives the masses what they want and makes fun of them while doing so. And we eat it up.My absolute favorite strips, though, are less well known. BoxJam... Goats.... these are the ecclectic "never be syndicated" strips that really stay true to themselves.My "artistic abilities" are pretty crappy, so I try my best not to look like a cross between Garfield and Dilbert, but it's a struggle when you can't even draw a recognizable smiley face. ^_^Personally, I dislike most any strip that requires little or no work besides cut and paste. Why? Because most of the people who do that are lazy about it. If you want to see a REAL cut'n'paste strip done correctly, go look at <a href="http://www.bobbins.org">Bobbins</a> which, believe it or not, is all done with illustrator templates. But John Allister, bless his soul, is NOT lazy about it, and works to make scene compositions work, not just stick random characters together to spit out a punchline.My comic started as a way for me to waste some time, and in that respect, it's stayed VERY true to its origins. ^_^ Interestingly enough, the strips that I worry the most about the readrers not liking are the ones that my readers usually like the most. So I try not to worry about what the readers will like so much. Instead, I just try and have a little fun, waste a little time, and hopefully amuse the 20 or 30 people who read my strip. ^_^BUT I SHOULD HAVE MORE HITS! WAAAAAH! ^_^Ah well. When it's all said and done, I think the people who imitate wind up quitting, and the people who innovate wind up staying. For the most part. I think even if you start up an imitation type comic, eventually it will become more than that just from virtue of the artist HAVING to do more with it to keep up interest. Paint by numbers is only fulfilling for so long......------------------
Scrubbo
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ScumBunny · Post by **ScumBunny** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 11:15 am

I feel I shoul put in a word for us "kids younger than 14 that think the words "penis" and "fuck" are so utterly funny that they'll have blood and guts flying around as characters are screaming stupid obscenities"...
To be honest, I'm over 20. But I find my comic mostly relies on graphic violence and cheesy gags, or gags based on graphic violence. So..Well, it's not like I was aiming for art. I'm not making a statement, I'm not telling a story. Hell, I don't even draw that nicely (granted, It is slightly better than some stuff you can find here in Keen).
Like most people here in Keen, I mostly do it for myself and for the few insane individuals who like that sort of stuff.I won't lie and say I don't want lots and lots of hits. My ego likes hits. But both me and my ego know that save from a small but rabid circle of friends and familiars, this comic is never going to be that popular. It's not supposed to. It's something I do for me. Look, maybe one day if and when I get good enough, I'll consider myself a webcomic for the more general public.
But as long as I'm down here with my 10 readers, practicing my drawing skills and cranking out the occasional disembowling gag, I don't see why it should bother you.
You don't like it, don't read it.------------------
"Suicide note...suicide note...Damn! Writer's block again!"
Scum Bunny
http://scumbunny.keenspace.com

Jaimiel · Post by **Jaimiel** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 11:47 am

I feel I shoul put in a word for us "kids younger than 14 that think the words "penis" and "fuck" are so utterly funny that they'll have blood and guts flying around as characters are screaming stupid obscenities"...Oh for God's sake. That's just a point. I don't think EVERY SINGLE younger than 14 year old think that's funny. Jeezus. Something has humor of that nature, too. The difference, most of the time, between my comic, perhaps yours, and anyone else's with that humor is that . . . we make it actually funny. It's like, a Kevin Smith movie. I usually abhorr most of the crap he has in his movies, but he makes it FUNNY and WITTY. Same with someone like Jhonen Vasquez. He has a muderer going around and, you know, ripping brains out, but he has a humor around it that makes in tolerable. These people I'm talking about just . . . plain suck. They're sickening really. o__o;;; And there are some OVER the age of 14, certainly! I've been sent some scary crap from people older than I (but I'm at the tender age of 17

), but for the most part it's from people younger than me. :/ And that's because, though they deny, they are very unwise and innocent (innocent being a general term), and rather STUPID. But, hell, I'M still learning about the world too, so some of the crap I spout can be awfully incorrect.Not that I'm saying any of my comics are so highly uber-intelligent or anything. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/tongue.gif"> Cripes, a lot of times I'm disgusted with my own lameness.And I DO care about hits. I jsut don't know how to get around to advertising my strip more.

Mostly because it ain't THAT important. I'm not making money, this won't benefit me in anyway except for practice in my medium, so . . . *shrug*

ScumBunny · Post by **ScumBunny** » Wed Aug 29, 2001 9:52 am

Er, no.
How about you?

Joshnickerson · Post by **Joshnickerson** » Thu Aug 30, 2001 5:32 am

When I sit down and script my comics, I always think to myself "Would I want somebody I know to read this?" I always try to go for mainstream, pop culture humor up front, then I usually have secondary, background jokes. For instance, I recently did a storyline about a character visiting Japan. I could've done a storyline that made fun of anime, but I knew some people might not get it. So I focused on an original storyline, and put anime references in the background as sort of a background joke. That way you get two different levels of humor that works for everyone. Plus it's fun to go back and try to pick up on stuff you missed.
Sorry if this all seems kinda scrambled, but I just got up and I gotta go to work in like 5 minutes > <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/frown.gif">------------------
- Josh Nickerson
<A HREF="http://thenolans.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>The Nolans</A>
<A HREF="http://treasurehunters.keenspot.com" TARGET=_blank>The Treasure Hunters Keenspot Miniseries!</A>
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