Comic Genesis Forums

Hmmm... I don't know what graphics program you use to make PNG's, but I use Adobe Photoshop 6.0, and GIF's are smaller than PNG's hands down. It seems as though you are attempting to start a revolution in online graphics, and as cool as it feels to go about doing that, there needs to be a much stronger back bone to it.<P>There are quite a few, "Yet"'s and "What if"'s, and "probably"'s. I've been keeping up with the whole PNG revolution for quite some time now, and it doesn't look as this this Unisys thing is going to go as far as the author hopes people will believe it will. They will ask for lisences... they ARE asking for lisences, and some of the companies out there will pay those lisences. What the author failed to mention is that it is a one time fee of $5,000. Adobe can easily afford this. Sure, there are a lot of little Freeware applications that wont be able to support this because of the cost, but for the most part, it's going to take a while for the conversion.<P>So, sit tight, don't get shook up, you guys! This was set in stone way, way back when the GIF format was originally set out as the standard for low color graphics. It was just a matter of time. It's still a matter of time, and this doesn't mean that you should go through all of your archives and transfer all of your GIF's to PNG's over night. Take your time. What if the patent DOES fall through (which it very, very well could), and there's nothing to worry about?<P>Well, then you would have wasted all that time converting, and now all of your comics will be a few Kilobytes bigger.<P>Maybe that's not much of a sacrafice to be part of a revolution, but It's much too much work for me. I'll wait and see what happens, myself.<P>I do applaud you on a well-written article, and it is an issue that needs to be addressed (few people actually know of the PNG's existence). I'm not trying to thwart what you're saying in the article, I'm just trying to come at it from another angle, and tell a little more of the story. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif"><P>- James
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Where's the rationale?<P><A HREF="http://rationale.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Right here!</A><p>[This message has been edited by bonk (edited 03-16-2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Hmmm... I don't know what graphics program you use to make PNG's, but I use Adobe Photoshop 6.0, and GIF's are smaller than PNG's hands down. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>After looking at this further, I've discovered that it completely depends on what kind of graphics you have on your web site:<P> - if you are drawing a <B>black and white</B> strip, GIFs will usually be smaller than PNGs. This is because the PNG format cannot be any smaller than an 8-bit graphic.<P> - if you are drawing a <B>color</B> strip and keep the colors under 256 hues, PNGs will almost always be smaller than GIFs, as long as you don't interlace them. (Interlacing a GIF decreases its file size, but interlacing a PNG makes it larger -- though it apparently makes the graphic look better.)<P> - if you are drawing a <B>high-color</B> strip (i.e., "true" or "deep" colors), you probably want to go with JPEG. 24-bit PNGs are usually larger than JPEGs.<P><P>------------------
Christopher B. Wright (wrightc@ubersoft.net)
The Internet's Most Dangerous Cartoonist
Help Desk (http://ubersoft.net)

TO add a bit of information from my own investigation. A 16 colour(4 bit) png file is smaller than a 16 colour gif file by just a little bit
I made a 16 colour b/w png file from a 16 colour b/w gif file the results:
gif: 51.4 KB
png: 49.2 KB<P>So for those of use that use Gifs for our B/W strips, png would give us smaller files.
However, I am too lazy to go and convert 101 of my strips to png from gif right now.<P>------------------
Like um read it eh!
<A HREF="http://lazy.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Lazy's World</A>

I appreciate the effort that Christopher has shown. I am willing to perhaps experiment with PNG formats a little more. If I can not drop my file size without losing quality, I won't use it. If I can use PNG and still retain my audience without a fuss, I may just switch.<P>On another note, the GIF format scare is a myth. The Compuserve or Unisys people have never clearly quoted that they were going to license to consumers, only application designers, such as Adobe, Microsoft. So, we as users will NOT ever have to pay a licensing fee to post gifs on an individual website. You see you are using a program to create your GIFS that has already bought the license from Unisys, AND you are viewing the gif formats on Browsers who have also bought the support license. This is quickly becoming a cyber-urban legend around the net, and is nothing to take seriously unless you are Adobe. And believe me, i think old Unisys would be forced by the Supreme Court to keep the format open to consumers that operate the applications that have already payed the licensing fee.

I can't agree with you more, Gravity. In every urban myth there is a small amount of truth.<P>Unisys DOES own the GIF algorithym. They WILL try to enforce their license, but just as warez are illegal, yet roam freely over the 'net, so will programs use the GIF Format.<P>What happened during the Prohibition? They tried to outlaw using Alcohol. People were so dependent on it that they drank it anyway, and people started bootlegging. Freeware Bootleg GIF Converters? Who knows.<P>Cigarette taxes... another perfect example. They raise the amount that it costs to buy a pack of cigarettes (I remember when you could buy a box of Malboro Red's for $1.50, and that wasn't that long ago!). How many people smoke? A lot! It didn't stop them!<P>My point is: If Unisys enforces their license, Adobe (along with Corel, JASC, Macromedia, Xara and a plethora of other major corporations) will pay that fee. They pay it once, and ANYONE can use the GIF format through their program. Adobe will not raise their price... they don't have to pay the license for every single copy of their software, so there's no need. We have nothing to fear... this will most likely not affect us at all.<P>Hands up for anyone who uses a freeware graphics program... ?<P>------------------
Where's the rationale?<P><A HREF="http://rationale.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Right here!</A>

Hi everyone, I posted this on the Keenspot general forum, too -- but I don't know that all of you go there, and I'm on a bandwagon today.<P> <A HREF="http://ubersoft.net/features/bothbarrels/20011603.html" TARGET=_blank>http://ubersoft.net/features/bothbarrel ... 03.html</A> <P>This is an article where I basically try and convince every web cartoonist out there to abandon GIFs and start using the PNG format. I apologize for the activism in advance.
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Christopher B. Wright (wrightc@ubersoft.net)
The Internet's Most Dangerous Cartoonist
Help Desk (http://ubersoft.net)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Hands up for anyone who uses a freeware graphics program... ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You mean like THE GIMP? And forget freeware... what about the shareware programs we use? I use a program called PMView, which is the product of this one guy who's genius... there's nothing better for reducing colors and converting file formats. He had to shell out $5K to license it.<P>And sure, Unisys won't go after you. Why would they bother? The real problem: they waited until GIFs were used by everyone before even announcing they owned the patent. That's an interesting way to circumvent a free market, don't you think?<P>I'm not advocating using PNG just to "get back at Unisys." I simply feel that if you need to choose between open and propetary standards, you should always choose the open ones.<P>Also, don't feel <B>too</B> safe when it comes down to what Unisys will and will not do. Their first stance on licensing was that they were only going after "big name" graphics corporations. <B>They specifically exempted freeware programs from needing a license.</B> But they changed their mind and changed their rules... and reserved the right to do so again in the future.
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Christopher B. Wright (wrightc@ubersoft.net)
The Internet's Most Dangerous Cartoonist
Help Desk (http://ubersoft.net)

You make a strong case friend. I was actually recently considering switching over to PNG files for my comic when I relaunch my site. I had first became aware of PNG's when i started customizing my NHL 2000 game. There are programs that let you change the jersey's and add your photo into the game. And all these images are stored as PNG files. I recently did some checking on the web about PNG's and they do sound better than gifts, primarily cause of the higher color depth. That's been the thing about GIF's that annoys me the most. I'm going to do some tests, see how the file size of my comics compares in PNG and GIF format. If all goes well, my site may be all PNG when I get it back up. <P><P>------------------
{tl}
Grimstone
http://grimstone.keenspace.com<P>
the martians are coming...

Bollocks to PNG!<P>Juse cause some pissed KKK members in texas thougt a 'burn all gifs' campaign would be funny,then made a site with some obvosily fabricated evidence on it.<P>Us civilised people should let em wank over thier american flags and burning crosses in peace<P>------------------

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