loyalty to a comic

Damonk13 · Post by **Damonk13** » Tue Jan 16, 2001 11:42 am

hmm...i know which strip you are referring to, tang.it's a tough call, really -- i can understand her reasons, even if i agree that i would rather have her write her own comics... still, from what i have gathered, i did not get the impression that she intended this to be a permanent change; i think she wants to try something new, and even if it's not to my tastes, i'm willing to let her give it a try.i figure it's better than having her stop her comic altogether?besides, the writer she has "acquired" spins a good tale -- his own comic strip has really impressed me, and even if i *do* enjoy the art from his strip (which he does not draw), it's the writing that keeps me there...hmm... still.i have to admit, tang, that i would really like her to keep writing, since, as you have pointed out -- it *was* her strip, both in art and in word...now, it's like there's only *half* of her coming through...*sigh*if only we could have everything...oh well, i'll be patient for now, and hope that she "comes back whole" soon enough.have you considered writing to her personally about it? she's very friendly and openminded, and i'm sure she would have no problems listening to your honest feelings on the subject...------------------
"Woohoo! I FINALLY thought of a witty qu~~
DAMMIT. I can't remember what it was now...
But, man. It was witty. Whoo.
Honest.
...
...
OK.
So I got nothing."
--damonk13
<A HREF="http://framed.keenspace.com/" TARGET=_blank>Framed! The Comic!</A>
(now with Beta-Carotine and new, minty <A HREF="http://www.keenspace.com/cgi-bin/ubb/fo ... LastLogin=" TARGET=_blank>Forum</A>!)

PDI · Post by **PDI** » Wed Jan 17, 2001 1:23 am

So which one were we talking about? CCS has more aliens now, CRFH more sex and violence. Smells like pandering to lowest common denominator, but who knows? I'll keep reading to find out.------------------
Scott Maddix
<A HREF="http://PDI.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Psychic Dyslexia Institute:</A>
Where we all have special special powers

Maboo · Post by **Maboo** » Wed Jan 17, 2001 1:52 am

Actually I LOVE the new mood of the strip - it's like a whole different chapter. (I knew immediately who you were referring to). I think it's better for having a different writer and a different mood, and what was quite good before has now become a whole lot more compelling for me at least.I don't see what the problem is - a very talented artist has got a different writer in for a while. I mean, if she'd been doing it this way from the beginning, drawing while someone else wrote, who'd be complaining? It's just because we're familar with what it was before that we don't feel comfortable with the new direction. And I think it's what she wanted, as the mood of her last storyline suggests that she wanted to move into dramatic storylines rather than a one-shot(ish) direction.I'm interested to see where it goes.Mab
------------------
<A HREF="http://blottostreet.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Blotto Street</A> - The most important British webcomic about student life you'll EVER read.

Russ · Post by **Russ** » Wed Jan 17, 2001 3:04 am

I assumed we were talking about CCS! I agree the writing feels quite different now, but I'm still interested and enjoying it. I can't really understand feeling "betrayed" by a change like this; I don't think there's any sort of contract (implied or otherwise) that says a comic has to keep doing the same thing indefinitely, but then I tend towards the other end of the spectrum anyway in that regard.Ultimately I hope and expect to see more stories in the future by the original author, but I have no problem with a guest writer. Think of it as an extended series of guest strips if you like; e.g. Sluggy has a week of guest strips right now; is that a betrayal?------------------
russ
<A HREF="http://www.kofightclub.com" TARGET=_blank>Ko Fight Club</A>
<A HREF="http://comicollage.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Comicollage</A>

Mark Gerrits · Post by **Mark Gerrits** » Wed Jan 17, 2001 3:53 am

Is there a reason why you're all avoiding the words Cool Cat Studio?------------------
<A HREF="http://ghostz.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Ghostz</A>[This message has been edited by Mark Gerrits (edited 01-17-2001).]

BoxJam · Post by **BoxJam** » Wed Jan 17, 2001 7:12 am

Oh, man, I thought it was CRFH.Seriously, though, it *is* like a different
comic. It's like the old comic ended (or
went on indefinite hiatus), and there's a
new comic.So treat it like that. A comic you like is
ending, and a new comic is starting up.In that case, what I do is write the old
cartoonist, telling them I wish they wouldn't
quit, and I'm sorry to see them go.And I decide if I like this new comic.------------------
I just came back from a <A HREF="http://www.boxjamsdoodle.com/" TARGET=_blank>hiatus</A>,
and boy are my arms tired.

Reinder · Post by **Reinder** » Wed Jan 17, 2001 12:17 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by tang:
I rather not tell her on her face that: "I think you're wrong."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, lots of people have actually written to voice their misgivings, including myself. The people involved are paying attention, and they can take it. Just stay polite, constructive and considerate, and make sure you read what others have said before expressing yourself, and you'll do allright.
They're grownups, remember. They've learned to deal with criticism.------------------
Reinder Dijkhuis
<A HREF="http://www.rocr.net/" TARGET=_blank>Rogues of Clwyd-Rhan</A>, Humorous fantasy strip, updated Mon-Fri, and really rather good. <A HREF="http://www.rocr.net/d/20000701.html" TARGET=_blank>Read it from the first strip!</A>

Damonk13 · Post by **Damonk13** » Wed Jan 17, 2001 12:21 pm

true... she is doing "nothing wrong"...but at the same time, i don't think that there is anything wrong with being honest with a cartoonist -- i know that i would rather my readers let me know quite openly and honestly when they disagree with something i do or have done... otherwise, how am i supposed to know when i am doing something wrong?besides, since you are a cartoonist as well (and a very well-respected one, might i add), i believe that she would certainly take your advice/suggestions seriously, and not in a personal or negative way... she would likely take it as sincere professional criticism from a respected peer. i'm not saying that she would change her mind just for you, but it might make her think about her choice in a way that she hasn't yet.hmm.the more i discuss this with you, the more i think i should write a little letter to her myself about my own feelings on the subject... but i'll wait a few weeks to see what she herself seems to think about it before offering my opinion...

PDI · Post by **PDI** » Thu Jan 18, 2001 3:02 am

Yeah, but look at russ's (that can't be right) comic to see where he's coming from. Can't maintain a format, much less a style.(Irony there. You know I love you, russ)------------------
Scott Maddix
<A HREF="http://PDI.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Psychic Dyslexia Institute:</A>
Where we all have special special powers

Russ · Post by **Russ** » Thu Jan 18, 2001 10:37 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PDI:
Yeah, but look at russ's (that can't be right) (and yet it is --ed note) comic to see where he's coming from. Can't maintain a format, much less a style.(Irony there. You know I love you, russ)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hey, I love you too man, but you weren't writing irony... it's quite true that for me the only constant thing is change. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif">Seriously, I do think that the notion that a comic needs to keep doing the same style forever is a leftover artifact from restrictions of newspaper syndication; webcomics should certainly feel free to experiment with form, art, writing, etc.------------------
russ
<A HREF="http://www.kofightclub.com" TARGET=_blank>Ko Fight Club</A>
<A HREF="http://comicollage.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Comicollage</A>[This message has been edited by russ (edited 01-18-2001).]

Tom Banner · Post by **Tom Banner** » Fri Jan 19, 2001 2:55 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by tang:
It has been like a thorn in my throat ever since one of my favorite online comic switched writer. The reason for that comic to change writer was the original writer want to spend more time on improving her drawing skill. I thought:"You don't need to improve on your drawing skill, you need to improve your story writing skill!" My respect to her as a comic creator faded.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hate to break it to you Tang (what mother would name her child after a breakfast drink?) but a lot of talented folks work in teams on projects and produce some kick ass work. It's something frankly the "webcomix community" needs to look at more seriously. There are a lot of webcomics out there where its pretty clear that the artist has artistic talent and no other skills or where the artist is pretty funny but can't draw or maintain a plot. These folks should be collaborating - they might get somewhere instead of plodding along in obscurity and they would definitely produce better work.Do you think the Beatles less worthy because they brought out the best in each other? Do movies suck because they are a collaboration between hundreds of different people? Down to Earth is a good comic that is produced by two people. Superosity is a good comic that is created by two people. Sometimes a team makes a better product - sometimes not.CCS is taking a different turn but the art has gotten even better - I think the expanded comic book page format is more interesting than the previous 2 x 2 layout. I wouldn't knock collaborating so much. You, for example could use at the very least a spell checker for a partner. You seem incapable of doing a comic without at least one spelling or grammatical error. It's distracting at a minimum and more often it confuses the dialogue such that your comic doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
------------------
Tom Banner
Cokie Roberts - I still love you!
http://www.burntdogradio.com

Joshua_w · Post by **Joshua_w** » Fri Jan 19, 2001 3:17 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Banner:
 Hate to break it to you Tang (what mother would name her child after a breakfast drink?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's hitting below the belt. Don't do that.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Banner:
but a lot of talented folks work in teams on projects and produce some kick ass work. It's something frankly the "webcomix community" needs to look at more seriously.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There are tons of'em. WE read them and love them. We don't take them less seriously.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Banner:
There are a lot of webcomics out there where its pretty clear that the artist has artistic talent and no other skills or where the artist is pretty funny but can't draw or maintain a plot. These folks should be collaborating - they might get somewhere instead of plodding along in obscurity and they would definitely produce better work.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maybe. It never stopped ME when I sucked.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Banner:
Do you think the Beatles less worthy because they brought out the best in each other?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hell no, they were cool!!
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Banner:
Do movies suck because they are a collaboration between hundreds of different people?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, sometimes....
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Banner:
Down to Earth is a good comic that is produced by two people. Superosity is a good comic that is created by two people. Sometimes a team makes a better product - sometimes not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
True, true.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Banner:
CCS is taking a different turn but the art has gotten even better - I think the expanded comic book page format is more interesting than the previous 2 x 2 layout.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It IS kinda neat.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Banner:
I wouldn't knock collaborating so much.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Tang was just posting about his (her? I dunno) preference for the original writing, not about how collaberation is hellfire incarnate.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Banner:
You, for example could use at the very least a spell checker for a partner. You seem incapable of doing a comic without at least one spelling or grammatical error. It's distracting at a minimum and more often it confuses the dialogue such that your comic doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
More hitting below the belt! This is not very nice! I've half a mind to give you a lecture or something, you naughty little man!Next time think about it BEFORE you post it, please. We'll all feel better.Read <A HREF="http://insidejoke.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Inside Joke</A>.WhooT!!
--josh------------------
Josh Hammerstedt,
Photon Jockey.
<A HREF="http://insidejoke.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Inside Joke</A> (now DAILY).
<A HREF="http://www.keenspace.com/cgi-bin/ubb/fo ... &number=90" TARGET=_blank>Forum</A> (always been DAILY).
Enjoy. DAILY.

Tom Banner · Post by **Tom Banner** » Fri Jan 19, 2001 4:13 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by joshua_w:

Originally posted by Tom Banner:
Hate to break it to you Tang (what mother would name her child after a breakfast drink?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's hitting below the belt. Don't do that.

Not really - there are worse associations with the word tang than that. No harm meant either - I'm sure s/he's heard all of the schoolyard taunts already. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Banner:
You, for example could use at the very least a spell checker for a partner. You seem incapable of doing a comic without at least one spelling or grammatical error. It's distracting at a minimum and more often it confuses the dialogue such that your comic doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
More hitting below the belt! This is not very nice! I've half a mind to give you a lecture or something, you naughty little man! Who said I was little?!?! Alright maybe that was a little harsh but geez it is true. Before you go making statements about artistic purity and how you would never work with anyone else lest you ruin your own artistic masterpiece you ought to think about whether your comic really is that perfect. Tang really would benefit from more attention to detail. Maybe s/he doesn't care but if s/he is as dedicated to the comic as s/he said in their post s/he ought to care about avoiding such needless errors.

PDI · Post by **PDI** » Fri Jan 19, 2001 5:09 am

The irony was all in the word "can't." And you're right. You should write up a thingie about this topic (I've read yer archives, I know you've given it some thought and research) for the Keenvention.------------------
Scott Maddix
<A HREF="http://PDI.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Psychic Dyslexia Institute:</A>
Where we all have special special powers

Joshua_w · Post by **Joshua_w** » Fri Jan 19, 2001 5:09 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Banner:
Not really - there are worse associations with the word tang than that. No harm meant either - I'm sure s/he's heard all of the schoolyard taunts already.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
True, there's poon-tang, tang-slappin', ugly-wussy tang-hole....these are ALL worse than calling someone a powdered beverage. But think about this: there are worse ways to call someone @$$hole than actually saying @$$hole, but that doesn't make @$$hole nice.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Banner:
Alright maybe that was a little harsh but geez it is true. Before you go making statements about artistic purity and how you would never work with anyone else lest you ruin your own artistic masterpiece you ought to think about whether your comic really is that perfect. Tang really would benefit from more attention to detail. Maybe s/he doesn't care but if s/he is as dedicated to the comic as s/he said in their post s/he ought to care about avoiding such needless errors.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Was this a very motivational speech? "Yeah, well you suck too" is not very inspiring.Constructive criticism good, non-constructive bad.EXAMPLE:
"Maybe you could try...." = GOOD
"Maybe you suck, stupid" = BADHave A Nice Day
--josh------------------
Josh Hammerstedt,
Photon Jockey.
<A HREF="http://insidejoke.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Inside Joke</A> (now DAILY).
<A HREF="http://www.keenspace.com/cgi-bin/ubb/fo ... &number=90" TARGET=_blank>Forum</A> (always been DAILY).
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Damonk13 · Post by **Damonk13** » Fri Jan 19, 2001 5:17 am

curiosity question, rob:what do you know of tang?were you aware that he is producing his comic in a second language -- not an easy feat to say the least, especially when you're working with two completely opposing bodies of syntactical rules, not to mention two radically different character sets?hell, i see comics written by folk who produce their work in their native tongue, and still make way more mistakes than Tang!As for the mistakes confusing you, and leaving you not understanding the comic? i dunno, man~~ i've been reading his stuff for a while now, and i can't remember ever once being thrown off by a tiny grammatic slip or a syntactical obfuscation to the point of missing the joke or appreciating the strip in question......and English is my second language, too....So really, c'mon... your red straw argument ain't getting you anywhere...Tang stated something very valid, even if not everyone agrees on it.Gisele Lagace is a very talented artist, and her writing skills were fairly spiffy, too. What Tang was suggesting was that had she continued to work on writing, she would (of course, since logic dictates it) improve. He developed a strong like of her written style, and T.Campbell isn't doing the same thing for him. Taste is taste, and there's nothing wrong with that.Now, in Gisele's defence (as as you and Josh pointed out), there is nothing wrong with wanted to focus on a particular aspect of your craft, either... Gisele has decided to focus on her artistic skills, and that's fine, too.While I also wish, like Tang, that she'd continue to write her own stuff, I can understand and respect her choice, and be thankful that she has such a talented writer filling in for her, to boot.Tang merely expressed an honest opinion as a fellow peer, and he did so quite respectfully and unpretentiously....But namecalling? That won't get anyone anywhere.We're more mature than that.Now let's start to show it.please?------------------
"Fools speak French words"
--Notorious <A HREF="http://eattheroses.keenspace.com/" TARGET=_blank>MEQ</A>
"Wow. Finally someone who appreciates my true colours...
But, oh! To be a <A HREF="http://www.donquixote.com/" TARGET=_blank>Spanish Fool</A> instead!"
--damonk13<A HREF="http://framed.keenspace.com/" TARGET=_blank>Framed! The Comic!</A>
(as Foolish as its <A HREF="http://www.keenspace.com/cgi-bin/ubb/fo ... LastLogin=" TARGET=_blank>Creator</A>)

Joshua_w · Post by **Joshua_w** » Fri Jan 19, 2001 6:36 am

Aha! Damonk, you just said it all!I'm not even going to try and add to it. It'd be like writing it over again.WhooT!!
--josh------------------
Josh Hammerstedt,
Photon Jockey.
<A HREF="http://insidejoke.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Inside Joke</A> (now DAILY).
<A HREF="http://www.keenspace.com/cgi-bin/ubb/fo ... &number=90" TARGET=_blank>Forum</A> (always been DAILY).
Enjoy. DAILY.

Russ · Post by **Russ** » Sat Jan 20, 2001 4:20 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by damonk13:
So really, c'mon... your red straw argument ain't getting you anywhere...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>For what it's worth, I enjoy the Tang comics, but I find the typos distracting as well and thought the Tom Banner post made a valid point here, albeit not very diplomatically. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif"> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Tang merely expressed an honest opinion as a fellow peer, and he did so quite respectfully and unpretentiously.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>To me, the post that started this thread came off as less than respectful. It explicitly says "My respect to her as a comic creator faded." It compared it to new Coke, to which "I was really pissed". And "she's no longer a comic creator to me, just a simple illustrator". (Heh, reminds me of those scenes in Chasing Amy with the fans pissing off Jason Scott Lee since he's "just a tracer" or whatever...) And the post talks of using a different writer as "betraying" the readers. I was taken aback by the vehemence of this.Maybe it's a second language lost-in-translation thing or maybe it's just exaggerated emotions one often sees in quickly written posts and emails, but as written, the original post sounded angry and not particularly respectful to me... ------------------
russ
<A HREF="http://www.kofightclub.com" TARGET=_blank>Ko Fight Club</A>
<A HREF="http://comicollage.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Comicollage</A>[This message has been edited by russ (edited 01-20-2001).]

Burntdog · Post by **Burntdog** » Sat Jan 20, 2001 4:36 am

Damonk - Josh - Russ - Whoever else is reading this:1. Josh - you listed the "tang" names not me. What I said was hardly offensive even if it was "name-calling." So don't try and pin that @$@%$ on me. Moreover, I've said nothing that even approaches the content in Tang's comic. If you don't like my sarcastic tone that's your problem but I think Russ hit the nail on the head. I found Tang's initial post disrespectful in tone and quite pretentious as well. You wasted a lot more time in trying to "lecture" me than is really necessary here.2. A lot of folks are working in english in webcomics and for some of them english is not their first language. I already know that. It's still valid to suggest avoiding simple spelling and grammatical errors is a good thing to do. It's not like I said Tang couldn't write - I was just making the point that these kind of amateur-hour errors detract from the quality, presentation and yes sometimes even an ability to understand the comic. In any event if Tang hadn't made his ridiculous assertion that he would never collaborate in order to protect the purity of his masterpiece I probably wouldn't have bothered to offer him this sage advice.
[This message has been edited by burntdog (edited 01-20-2001).]

PDI · Post by **PDI** » Sat Jan 20, 2001 4:58 am

Keenvention panel discussion topic!(Why do I wind up pusshing Keenvention? Cuz I think it's really great. And the kickbacks.)------------------
Scott Maddix
<A HREF="http://PDI.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Psychic Dyslexia Institute:</A>
Where we all have special special powers