A vague memory of a comic

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Re: A vague memory of a comic

Postby LibertyCabbage on Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:24 pm

Bustertheclown wrote:So did the Nazis.

BOOM!

GODWIN'D!
Actually, their pseudo-mascot wears a Nazi uniform. So, they've, like, pre-emptively Godwin'd themselves, or something?

They've really got that whole getting-attention thing nailed down.
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Re: A vague memory of a comic

Postby VeryCuddlyCornpone on Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:38 pm

LibertyCabbage wrote: But the idea's that standards are circumstantial.

That doesn't mean they're without worth.
LibertyCabbage wrote:
Bustertheclown wrote:So did the Nazis.

BOOM!

GODWIN'D!
Actually, their pseudo-mascot wears a Nazi uniform. So, they've, like, pre-emptively Godwin'd themselves, or something?

They've really got that whole getting-attention thing nailed down.

I suppose so.


re: WCO, El Santo's started to come back a bit more. Thank goodness because Herbert's articles are just really subpar in comparison. I wish there were more people in the webcomic review hobby, but it seems like people get into it thinking it's easy, chuff out maybe 5, 10 reviews, realize it's actually fairly time consuming and with less inherent reward than even actually making a webcomic, and burn out before they even really get anywhere. I mean, I like writing reviews, but at least for me it's really exhausting and taxing, especially if it's a mediocre or worse read (which statistically they tend to be). The most fun I had working on a proper review was for Dutch's comic a few years ago, and the most fun writing a just-for-the-hell-of-it review was for Dominic Deegan which was mostly just a stream-of-consciousness response as opposed to a review and treaded no new ground that had been unexplored prior.
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Re: A vague memory of a comic

Postby RobboAKAscooby on Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:44 pm

I can't be bothered going back and quoting it but that reviewee who said about humour being subjective and people not "getting" the jokes...

Total bullshit.

Yeah humour is subjective but, as so many people have said throughout the years, if you have to explain a joke it's not funny.
Since I'm not familiar with the comic I don't know what it's jokes are like but I've heard this kind of excuse a lot on comics where the "jokes" either rely on pointless pop-culture references or are in-jokes that only people in their social circle will get.

Funnily enough in-jokes can be made accessible if you try. Cuddly's old BGA comic was a good example, the humour was simple but demonstrative.

Pointless pop-culture stuff though, it's damn near impossible to be original with it let alone actually funny. It's like the difference between Mel Brooks work and the current generation of parody films. Brooks knew what he was doing, he understood the genres he was playing with and how to make them funny whereas the new guys just add gross-outs and stupidity and say "Look isn't it funny?"



BTW this post is going to be rather ironic in a couple of months when reviews point out how lame my jokes are but at least I'm not gonna pretend y'all don't "get" it.
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Re: A vague memory of a comic

Postby VeryCuddlyCornpone on Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:59 pm

Yeah, that's the thing. It's also possible to "get" a joke and not think it was funny or effective. "Well, if you *really understood it* you would have thought it was funny, so you must not really have understood it." It puts the burden of the work on the *reader* to be the one to find value in an aspect of a comic, instead of that value being readily apparent. Obviously not every work is going to be completely accessible to every reader, and no one ever is really arguing for that. However, deliberately allowing a work to be inacessible due to simple laziness or arrogance on the part of the creator is a foolish enterprise.

Which- and it always seems to get back to this- is fine if you "don't care what people think" because you're "doing it for fun" and whatever other reason people have to justify any problem they can think of in their comic. Those excuses are perfectly fine if they're actually, you know, true. However, the minute you start pulling out those tired old lines is the minute you really relinquish your right to pretend to be surprised, offended, or hurt when someone finds fault in your work.

I initially had the ATBL comic confused with another one I had reviewed for SJ because of that line, as I remember that a lot of the humor just wasn't working for me, and although I could tell that there was levity being injected in the situations, I found it difficult to understand the tone of the comic and so the comedic moments just seemed awkward and out of place to me. A reread of the comic revealed that I had kind of approached the comic from the wrong angle, and I think I did apologize to the creator for that after the fact. Hhhowever what does it say about the tone of the comic that my misconception stood for so long in the first place? In my review I think I pointed out that the comic had a lot of fans so obviously it was working for a lot of readers, and that I was just one person and so forth, and I'm pretty sure the creator understood that well, so it would have been weird if they had actually been the one making that comment on the forum LC linked there.

Idk, it's just sad. I love to get feedback. When I was little I used to bother my mom's friends when they had their women's meetings to read the stupid books I had made and tell me what they thought about them. I guess it makes me feel a bit put out to watch people slap criticism away just because the outside is kind of sandpapery.
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Re: A vague memory of a comic

Postby Sortelli on Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:02 pm

Cuddly's old BGA comic was a good example


I'd gladly pay you tuesday for a link to this todayyyyy.
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Re: A vague memory of a comic

Postby VeryCuddlyCornpone on Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:19 pm

Sortelli wrote:
Cuddly's old BGA comic was a good example


I'd gladly pay you tuesday for a link to this todayyyyy.

Lol! Here you go: http://bandgeeksanonymous.comicgenesis.com/ I thought I had the link in my sig still, but must have swapped it out around the time JSConner8000000000000000000 made me laugh.


I've considered migrating it to smackjeeves but it's a lot of work for a comic I literally haven't worked on since the Bush administration.
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So it was made by the guy with the shittiest webcomic

Postby Cope on Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:23 pm

VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:Shitty Webcomics, which is run by the Shredded Moose guy

Wow, that explains a lot.
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Re: A vague memory of a comic

Postby Sortelli on Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:14 pm

VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:Lol! Here you go: http://bandgeeksanonymous.comicgenesis.com/


I spent high school hanging out with band geeks and dating the color guard, this is relevant to my interests
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Re: A vague memory of a comic

Postby Terotrous on Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:34 pm

You know, reading over this thread, I can't help but wonder if the decline of the forum is somehow linked to the loss of our beloved trolls and morons. When stupid people found out that making comics wasn't actually a great way to get rich, the internet lost a great source of comedy.
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Re: A vague memory of a comic

Postby VeryCuddlyCornpone on Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:39 am

Sortelli wrote:
VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:Lol! Here you go: http://bandgeeksanonymous.comicgenesis.com/


I spent high school hanging out with band geeks and dating the color guard, this is relevant to my interests

sortelly your intrests are always relevant <3

Terotrous wrote:You know, reading over this thread, I can't help but wonder if the decline of the forum is somehow linked to the loss of our beloved trolls and morons. When stupid people found out that making comics wasn't actually a great way to get rich, the internet lost a great source of comedy.

I think you might be onto something. All the trolls got paying jobs and are on the straight and narrow, all the morons found cushier hugboxes to evacuate to*. Nobody wants to hang around with a bunch of earnest semi-dicks of varying artistic ability.

*evacuate INTO, more like, amirite, *makes another poop thread*
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Re: A vague memory of a comic

Postby Sortelli on Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:37 pm

Terotrous wrote:making comics wasn't actually a great way to get rich


noooooo

NOOOOOOOOOOO

*puts on a fedora and goes to review anime on youtube*

*evacuate INTO, more like, amirite, *makes another poop thread*


holy shit cuddly I choked from laughing :< you are literally killing me
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Re: A vague memory of a comic

Postby VeryCuddlyCornpone on Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:54 pm

Sortelli wrote:*puts on a fedora and goes to review anime on youtube*

YOU KILLED ME FIRST
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Re: A vague memory of a comic

Postby LibertyCabbage on Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:31 pm

VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:That doesn't mean they're without worth.
It depends. I doubt Shitty Webcomics would be as infamous if there were better negative reviewers (and webcomic reviewers in general) around.

VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:I suppose so.
Don't take them so seriously. They're just performers putting on a show.

VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:re: WCO, El Santo's started to come back a bit more.
Yeah, I saw that, although I haven't gotten caught up with the newer stuff yet.

VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:I wish there were more people in the webcomic review hobby [...]
Good topic. I'll skip it for now and get back to it in another post.

RobboAKAScooby wrote:I can't be bothered going back and quoting it but that reviewee who said about humour being subjective and people not "getting" the jokes...
Is this in reference to Wonderdrome? Y'know, I don't remember it really trying to be funny. It's more, like, "I JUST TOOK LSD AND METH TOGETHER FOR THE FIRST TIME HERE LOOK I DREW THIS IN MSPAINT USING MY LEFT FOOT," and you're, like, "...................................................................................what."

RobboAKAScooby wrote:Yeah humour is subjective but, as so many people have said throughout the years, if you have to explain a joke it's not funny.
Since I'm not familiar with the comic I don't know what it's jokes are like but I've heard this kind of excuse a lot on comics where the "jokes" either rely on pointless pop-culture references or are in-jokes that only people in their social circle will get.
The objective/subjective debate rages on, but regardless, treating criticism as subjective just isn't useful. Blaming the audience or critic for not laughing doesn't help the creator be funnier, it just protects their ego. The creator who treats criticism as objective, accepts peer feedback, challenges their comfort zone, keeps up with trends, and studies the techniques of the greats, will always be superior. And the creator who seeks to protect their ego can only do so in the short-term, because eventually reality will seep in and they'll become seriously depressed.

Part of the issue is that being an entertainer is sort of looked down upon. It's too commercial, too mainstream, too pedestrian. But I think there's something really noble about being a people-pleaser who can bring joy and laughter to other people's lives. (I actually randomly came across an article today about it that explains it really well.) And that comes from interacting with people, relating with people, studying them, learning how to make them laugh, enjoying being the center of attention, and feeling useful that you're helping someone who's having a shitty day forgot about their problems for a little bit.

RobboAKAScooby wrote:Pointless pop-culture stuff though, it's damn near impossible to be original with it let alone actually funny. It's like the difference between Mel Brooks work and the current generation of parody films. Brooks knew what he was doing, he understood the genres he was playing with and how to make them funny whereas the new guys just add gross-outs and stupidity and say "Look isn't it funny?"
The thing with comedy is that it's changing and evolving constantly. It's really hard to be funny. Not only does a comedian need to change and evolve to keep up with contemporary culture, but they also need to come up with material that doesn't have an expiration date. A sign of Brooks' brilliance is that his movies are just as funny today as they were when they originally came out.

RobboAKAScooby wrote:BTW this post is going to be rather ironic in a couple of months when reviews point out how lame my jokes are but at least I'm not gonna pretend y'all don't "get" it.
What matters is that you're willing to learn how to be funnier.

VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:Yeah, that's the thing. It's also possible to "get" a joke and not think it was funny or effective. "Well, if you *really understood it* you would have thought it was funny, so you must not really have understood it." It puts the burden of the work on the *reader* to be the one to find value in an aspect of a comic, instead of that value being readily apparent. Obviously not every work is going to be completely accessible to every reader, and no one ever is really arguing for that. However, deliberately allowing a work to be inacessible due to simple laziness or arrogance on the part of the creator is a foolish enterprise.
A tough audience shouldn't be seen as a problem, it should be seen as a challenge to overcome. The inherent danger is that creators can choose to cater to an easy audience by latching onto sycophants.

VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:Which- and it always seems to get back to this- is fine if you "don't care what people think" because you're "doing it for fun" and whatever other reason people have to justify any problem they can think of in their comic. Those excuses are perfectly fine if they're actually, you know, true. However, the minute you start pulling out those tired old lines is the minute you really relinquish your right to pretend to be surprised, offended, or hurt when someone finds fault in your work.
Right, and I think some of the poor reactions to criticism are caused by the psychological stress a negative review can cause. For someone who isn't used to getting negative criticism, I recommend waiting three days or longer to respond in order to give the reviewee a chance to calm down and look at the situation more rationally.

VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:I initially had the ATBL comic confused with another one I had reviewed for SJ because of that line, as I remember that a lot of the humor just wasn't working for me, and although I could tell that there was levity being injected in the situations, I found it difficult to understand the tone of the comic and so the comedic moments just seemed awkward and out of place to me. A reread of the comic revealed that I had kind of approached the comic from the wrong angle, and I think I did apologize to the creator for that after the fact. Hhhowever what does it say about the tone of the comic that my misconception stood for so long in the first place? In my review I think I pointed out that the comic had a lot of fans so obviously it was working for a lot of readers, and that I was just one person and so forth, and I'm pretty sure the creator understood that well, so it would have been weird if they had actually been the one making that comment on the forum LC linked there.
That sounds like great material for a review.

VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:Idk, it's just sad. I love to get feedback. When I was little I used to bother my mom's friends when they had their women's meetings to read the stupid books I had made and tell me what they thought about them. I guess it makes me feel a bit put out to watch people slap criticism away just because the outside is kind of sandpapery.
People don't understand that it takes a lot of work to get good at making webcomics. They're not interested in gaining popularity five years down the road; they want to be popular now.

Terotrous wrote:You know, reading over this thread, I can't help but wonder if the decline of the forum is somehow linked to the loss of our beloved trolls and morons. When stupid people found out that making comics wasn't actually a great way to get rich, the internet lost a great source of comedy.
I think people got older and lost interest, and the younger people that would've came in to replace them went to Comic Fury and Smack Jeeves instead.

VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:I think you might be onto something. All the trolls got paying jobs and are on the straight and narrow, all the morons found cushier hugboxes to evacuate to*. Nobody wants to hang around with a bunch of earnest semi-dicks of varying artistic ability.
That's true, and even the cool new people that come around once in a while don't seem to stick around for long for some reason.

Sortelli wrote:*puts on a fedora and goes to review anime on youtube*
*pledges $1,000 to Sortelli's Kickstarter so I can be a guest on his show*
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Re: A vague memory of a comic

Postby LibertyCabbage on Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:47 am

This must be where all the "Furry porn isn't porn, and if you think it's porn then you're a pervert" people come from:

natani porn 2

porn comic reader 2

twokinds porn 2

catgirl erotic webcomic 1

comic furry masturate each other 1


Also, here's a PM from 2012 by the creator of Boy with a Secret, in response to me doubting her ability to write romance:

Great I'll check it out. and yea, I have been published in a book and it was a love story.http://www.seqapunch.com/newartists.php i was featured as one of the artist. the part about the love story I think you are a wrong there. but with the other stuff, i do accept and i will defiantly work on it. Thanks again.
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Re: A vague memory of a comic

Postby VeryCuddlyCornpone on Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:23 am

LC, when's Freakboy coming back?
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Re: A vague memory of a comic

Postby McDuffies on Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:04 am

I scream about every review I get. I usually make my boyfriend read it out loud after I've read it over once. Just a weird urge I tend to feel. There's a lot of excitement and anxiety behind receiving a review, even a glowing one, that I feel like I need to rub it on someone else a bit to get rid of the cooties.

I always get a slight sting through my heart. Sometimes, if I think the review was silly or missed the point, I'll laugh my head off about it with my friends, I'm not above that. But I've had enough reviews that I lated realised were right, I always have reservations. I guess we learn how to deal with them, and the trick is to learn how to deal with them with grace, yet not repress anything. First idea would be, whatever you do, do it off internet.

The first review Marisa and I ever got was by someone from the Webcomic Police for our first comic, And To Be Loved. I don't think they used the review on their site, instead it was just used in another forum. Anyways, it was a negative review and had a lot of inconsistencies and biased opinions.

Unlike some other reviews that are completely objective, cause reviewing is like science and not at all subject to personal experience.

A lot of people there seem to think that if a reviewer isn't in your target audience, you needn't listen to a word they say. What happens if you wheedle and wheedle your target audience away, though? Who can you trust to listen to? Awkward


Those target audience considerations are just an example of a concept that was transplanted from elsewhere into webcomics where it doesn't quite fit. Who do authors of a form that is supposed to be personal and navel-gazing, get to define their own work by reactions of, practically, focus groups? Target audience is something that producers of tv shows worry about, it's an ill fit for webcomics. After all, it's not as if anyone ever statistically examined it. We may have some vague notion that gaming comics or furry comics carry some clout, oh yeah and also that people like comics with sex and fart jokes.

Authors have to think in terms "what kind of comic do I want to make" and not "what kind of audience do I want to attract". If someone criticizes my comic because, for instance, it doesn't have enough Mario in it, I should not think "gamers are not my audience". Because, heck, maybe they are. Maybe there's something about my humor that strangely appeals to gamers. You can't guess that sort of stuff. It's not like I'm having a proverbial bow and arrow here. Tv studios spend much money and have records that date several decades back, and still they miss more often than they hit. What do we have? So few success stories that we may as well consider them all exceptions.
Instead I should go "do I want to make a comic with Mario in it? As it happens, I do not."

To be this calculated in an area where only a very few earn a living is quite silly. Author has to believe that, the better his comic is, the more audience it will have.

edit edit: Also, LC, I forgot to ask you about this a while ago but was reminded by one of the links you just put. In your affiliates you link to Shitty Webcomics, which is run by the Shredded Moose guy and last time I checked, ceased actually mocking bad comics and has turned into just taking potshots at whatever minority group you'd expect Shredded Moose Guy to target. It's your site and if you want to maintain that association obviously that's your prerogative, but I think having that link there hurts TWP's credibility as a webcomic review resource.

Why does a guy who created something that is universally accepted as the wort webcomic of all times, run a blog dedicated to criticizing bad comics?

Despite its obvious flaws, I think Shitty Webcomics is the No. 2 review site right now, after The Webcomic Overlook (excluding my own site, of course). The Bad Webcomics Wiki is No. 3. That's why they're linked.

I really don't think Shitty Webcomics really constitutes a review site, and Bad Webcomics wiki itself is the reviewing equivalent of a bad webcomic. They're both deserve attention strictly as guilty pleasures. Can't really say I respect either.

Yeah, that's the thing. It's also possible to "get" a joke and not think it was funny or effective. "Well, if you *really understood it* you would have thought it was funny, so you must not really have understood it." It puts the burden of the work on the *reader* to be the one to find value in an aspect of a comic, instead of that value being readily apparent. Obviously not every work is going to be completely accessible to every reader, and no one ever is really arguing for that. However, deliberately allowing a work to be inacessible due to simple laziness or arrogance on the part of the creator is a foolish enterprise.

Humor is subjective, hence if you believe that quality of art is something objective, you can not accept "did I laugh" as an arguement. Instead you have to consider "why I laughed". Surely a laugh at pointed social satire has more weight than a laugh at a poop joke? My policy is that if someone can put in a good arguement about why something is good, then I will respect it, even if I don't react to it emotionally. "I laughed" is not a good arguement. "It is good because humor is subjective" is a kind of non-arguement that grew out of people being unable to arguement why they enjoyed something. You do not neccessarily have to be able to arguement why you enjoyed something. Enjoyment is an emotional response. But you have to accept that if you enjoyed something, it does not neccesarily mean that it is good. Many people can not accept that, thus gave birth to a multitude of non-arguements that seem to serve to devalue all art rather than to elevate that particular item: humor is subjective, therefore all humor is funny to someone, therefore either all humor is good or bad, or both good and bad.
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Re: A vague memory of a comic

Postby VeryCuddlyCornpone on Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:35 am

Mick Duffies returning to lay down the law


Or should I say the PAW??!?!?!?
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Re: A vague memory of a comic

Postby Tim on Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:01 pm

VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:Mick Duffies returning to lay down the law


Or should I say the PAW??!?!?!?

Well, he lays down his paw every time he takes a step, so maybe the first thing was right.
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Re: A vague memory of a comic

Postby LibertyCabbage on Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:55 pm

VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:LC, when's Freakboy coming back?
Oh, yeah. That comic. I have a vague memory of it.

Uhmm.....

I dunno.

McDuffies wrote:I always get a slight sting through my heart. Sometimes, if I think the review was silly or missed the point, I'll laugh my head off about it with my friends, I'm not above that. But I've had enough reviews that I lated realised were right, I always have reservations. I guess we learn how to deal with them, and the trick is to learn how to deal with them with grace, yet not repress anything. First idea would be, whatever you do, do it off internet.
Being snarky about a negative review just seems so pointless. Say "thanks" and do some push-ups.

McDuffies wrote:Unlike some other reviews that are completely objective, cause reviewing is like science and not at all subject to personal experience.
No one's ever called a reviewer biased after getting a positive review...

McDuffies wrote:Those target audience considerations are just an example of a concept that was transplanted from elsewhere into webcomics where it doesn't quite fit.
Right? There's way too much business-mindedness in webcomics. Why can't more people just have fun and express themselves as individuals? I imagine a lot of webcartoonists as a businessman in a suit stroking their chin and thinking, "If I copy this joke from so-and-so site, I project my pageviews will increase by 4.3 percent..."

Ugh.

McDuffies wrote:Why does a guy who created something that is universally accepted as the wort webcomic of all times, run a blog dedicated to criticizing bad comics?
Attention-whoring.

McDuffies wrote:I really don't think Shitty Webcomics really constitutes a review site, and Bad Webcomics wiki itself is the reviewing equivalent of a bad webcomic. They're both deserve attention strictly as guilty pleasures. Can't really say I respect either.
I meant it half-ironically. I've always been pretty casual with my linkage, though. I guess, to me, a link's not so much "This is good" as it's, like, "This is weird. Check it out if you want and form your own opinion of it."

McDuffies wrote:Instead you have to consider "why I laughed".
Right. Laughter itself is a subconscious, involuntary response. So, the next step is to consciously analyze your reaction. "Why did this make me laugh?" And from there, you can eventually arrive at a conclusion that conveys an understanding of humor. Merely stating "I laughed" is inadequate.
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Re: A vague memory of a comic

Postby McDuffies on Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:27 pm

Being snarky about a negative review just seems so pointless. Say "thanks" and do some push-ups.

It's good for venting frustration. Contrary to popular belief, push-ups don't do much to soothe burn from a bad review.

Right? There's way too much business-mindedness in webcomics. Why can't more people just have fun and express themselves as individuals? I imagine a lot of webcartoonists as a businessman in a suit stroking their chin and thinking, "If I copy this joke from so-and-so site, I project my pageviews will increase by 4.3 percent..."

Ugh.

Yeah, though in this case it was more a rationale... using words imported from another area, hoping that they'd give weight to the opinion. Should've thrown a few "demographics" too...
Though there are a lots of people who think that being a second PA or whoever is just a matter of repeating everything that comic did...
But at the same time it's a sort of lack of confidence in their own work. I dunno, whatever I made, I was honestly believing at the time that everyone would like it simply because (I believed) it was good. You gotta fully trust your idea of what makes a good comic, otherwise you're wishy-washy, you wander, and that's not the kind of "commercial" that people actually like. If you think of target audience, you are in advance giving up on idea that your comic could be universally appealing... you are giving up on judging it on it's own terms...
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