Art issues: What have you struggled with and why?

For discussions, announcements, non-technical questions and anything else comics-related or otherwise that doesn't fit in any of the other categories.

Art issues: What have you struggled with and why?

Postby RobboAKAscooby on Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:14 am

I just posted this on my dA journal:
my dA journal wrote:Just a thought about something I've noticed here on dA that's a little strange.

Poorly drawn boobies.

Not that strange in itself, since the majority of people drawing boobs around here are horny amateurs and quality isn't as important to them as two big circles with little pink lumps in the center. What is strange (to me at least) is just how many of these artists are girls themselves, unlike the horny (sometimes pathetic) guys, they have boobs of their own shouldn't they have a closer grasp on the anatomy involved? Maybe not, but it is a little weird to me. I suppose part of it is wish fulfillment, as most of the poorly drawn boobs are the larger size (I mean reasonably large not "inflated"), which I can completely understand, it's the same as the fandomites who have their good looking OCs to live through vicariously.

I'm certainly not putting down these people. For a lot of amateur artists there's a certain amount of wish fulfillment involved - and art itself is the projection of our perceptions, ideals, fantasies and visions.

And I've personally struggled with boobs (*ba-dum-tsh*) among other anatomy issues that I still struggle with.

I just think it's kind of funny how many girls can't draw boobs, but I'm sure the same is true for guys and penises I've just never bothered to look.


And it had me wondering what issues you guys have had with your artistic pursuits?

I know for myself there's been plenty of discussion in the past of my boob-drawing abilities as well as ongoing discussion of the stiffness of my art. There's certainly plenty of things I struggle with, highest among them is probably the stiffness issue but also I have specific issues with shoulder joints, hands and feet. I know that part of my drawing problems are caused by my oft-broken hands and the associated pain that gives me trouble on finer details, for instance my hand drawing improves the larger I'm drawing, but also due to the lack of real study (or studying in the wrong order).

It's kind of interesting to me though the way I've improved on some issues in the past, some things have just clicked when I've looked at a certain photo or a particular tutorial (which taught me a different lesson than intended).

I'm interested to know what y'all have struggled with and perhaps how you overcame those issues.
ImageDeviantart~tumblr
"Your service is to the story and to the characters. Fuck the audience and fuck your own whims." - Yeahduff
User avatar
RobboAKAscooby
Cartoon Hero
 
Posts: 1140
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:00 pm
Location: Brisvegas

Re: Art issues: What have you struggled with and why?

Postby LibertyCabbage on Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:27 am

I looked at some of my old stuff, and I think my biggest issue was my pessimistic attitude. I didn't think I'd be able to draw realistically, and because of that, I didn't feel motivated to try to learn how. It wasn't till around 2008 that I'd gradually improved enough where I started to think, "Y'know, if I actually study anatomy and stuff, maybe I can draw realistically." And that was sort of an intense experience where I was working really hard to try to get it right, but I was also pleased with the results I was getting.

After that, though, I barely drew anything between March 2009 and July 2012, and I'd say that my biggest issues now are motivation and time-management. I know that I have some weak areas in my artwork, but I feel I have enough of a foundation at this point that I could figure them out eventually if I took the time to study and practice them.
ImageImage
"Seems like the only comics that would be good to this person are super action crazy lines, mega poses!"
User avatar
LibertyCabbage
Cartoon Hero
 
Posts: 4663
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:08 pm
Location: bat country

Re: Art issues: What have you struggled with and why?

Postby VeryCuddlyCornpone on Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:43 am

Color has dogged me as long as I can remember. It just doesn't seem to come naturally to me. Thanks to some very rudimentary research, I'm a bit better off than I used to be, but I still don't "get" it on a fundamental level. If I were to pay money and take an actual course, that's what I'd look for.

My ability to draw postcranial anatomy is pretty atrophied as well due to years of what essentially amount to talking head comics, since the heads of Band Geeks Anonymous and its cohorts were the only parts i put effort into so the work is about the same as if I hadn't been drawing bodies at all. Bodies tend to turn out disproportionately small compared to heads, I just have a lot of trouble giving shoulders a right-looking width.

As for women not being able to draw tits, well, most everyone's got hands, haven't they? And it seems a lot of people have trouble drawing those regardless. It doesn't matter how many times you've looked at and seen something if you haven't studied *how to draw it.* I know what a fist looks like, but I don't have the finger/palm or phalange/phalange ratio memorized and often have to look at a reference for certain gestures. If dicks were more prevalent in male-drawn comics, I'd hazard a guess that you'd see a lot of disturbing looking dicks as well.

Going hand in hand with color is backgrounds. When I actually sit down and put effort into a background it's never as bad as I expect it's going to be, but the rest of the time my lack of effort is sorely apparent. In the first two chapters I included backgrounds more consistently, but in chapters 3 and 4 I started taking a lot of shortcuts and it's really obvious and has been noted by quite a few readers. With color and backgrounds, I find I often get to a point where I sit there, I have the character(s) and the foreground, and then it's kind of like- now what? Like I truly don't know what to do next. It's either I don't know and kind of wing it, or i DO know but am too tired of working on a given page to give it the attention it deserves, and kind of wing it.

Some technique/medium changes seem to be making color and background less bugbears for me though, as it seems to transition naturally from characters and foreground now instead of breaking up the process into discrete fragments. I'm hoping this bodes well for future exploits.
Image
Don't kid yourself, friend. I still know how.
"I'd much rather dream about my co-written Meth Beatdown script tonight." -JSConner800000000
User avatar
VeryCuddlyCornpone
Cartoon Hero
 
Posts: 3237
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:02 pm
Location: the spoonited plates of Americup

Re: Art issues: What have you struggled with and why?

Postby MariaAndMichelle on Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:22 pm

Michelle's pretty crap at feet. She's doing a lot better with hands than she used to, but feet, for some reason, still elude her. Also, any kind of unusual head tilt. :-? :-?

Poney wrote:Going hand in hand with color is backgrounds.
Ooo, backgrounds! Wouldn't have even thought of that! (Which, we suppose, is the problem.) It's not that Michelle's bad at them, per se (though, to be honest: not the best)... but so often she just kinda... overlooks... them. It's kinda like, "What? Oh. Yeah. I guess that person is probably standing somewhere. Do I really have to keep drawing all the things? I don't want to. And also, I forgot to." Image Image
You're just jealous because you can't get away with speaking in the third person...

Image Image
User avatar
MariaAndMichelle
Cartoon Henchgirls
 
Posts: 3564
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 2:42 pm
Location: Together

Re: Art issues: What have you struggled with and why?

Postby RobboAKAscooby on Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:45 pm

VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:As for women not being able to draw tits, well, most everyone's got hands, haven't they? And it seems a lot of people have trouble drawing those regardless. It doesn't matter how many times you've looked at and seen something if you haven't studied *how to draw it.* I know what a fist looks like, but I don't have the finger/palm or phalange/phalange ratio memorized and often have to look at a reference for certain gestures. If dicks were more prevalent in male-drawn comics, I'd hazard a guess that you'd see a lot of disturbing looking dicks as well.

I should point out that when that funny thought came into my head I was referring to pics where boobs were kind of the focus, I'm sure if you were doing a comic where hands featured prominently you'd at least take the time to learn decent hands.
But like I said, I just found it kind of funny at the time, my mind is weird like that.

VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:Color has dogged me as long as I can remember. It just doesn't seem to come naturally to me. Thanks to some very rudimentary research, I'm a bit better off than I used to be, but I still don't "get" it on a fundamental level. If I were to pay money and take an actual course, that's what I'd look for.

Going hand in hand with color is backgrounds. When I actually sit down and put effort into a background it's never as bad as I expect it's going to be, but the rest of the time my lack of effort is sorely apparent. In the first two chapters I included backgrounds more consistently, but in chapters 3 and 4 I started taking a lot of shortcuts and it's really obvious and has been noted by quite a few readers. With color and backgrounds, I find I often get to a point where I sit there, I have the character(s) and the foreground, and then it's kind of like- now what? Like I truly don't know what to do next. It's either I don't know and kind of wing it, or i DO know but am too tired of working on a given page to give it the attention it deserves, and kind of wing it.


Yeah I completely forgot about colour and backgrounds. I totally have issues there as well, especially backgrounds (which may be why I still have ten unfinished drawings waiting to be coloured), but some colour portraits I've done recently have helped a little with the colouring.
ImageDeviantart~tumblr
"Your service is to the story and to the characters. Fuck the audience and fuck your own whims." - Yeahduff
User avatar
RobboAKAscooby
Cartoon Hero
 
Posts: 1140
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:00 pm
Location: Brisvegas

Re: Art issues: What have you struggled with and why?

Postby McDuffies on Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:18 pm

Penises are about the first thing guys learn how to draw. It's very easy 'cause we just put them on paper and then draw a line around.

Anyways my biggest problem is impatience. I don't finish pencils before inking, and I rush through inks. It ruins everything.

Other than that I have issues with shoulders, particularly I often draw female shoulders too masculine. I also have problems with the place where neck meets the head, that sometimes tends to look wrong no matter how many times I fix it.

Also a big problem is consistency. When I draw more stylized characters it's less obvious, but they tend to morph from panel to panel, their facial measures tend to change, etc.

I haven't worked on a colour too much, I'm not very good at it. I don't know if I would be if I tried more.

I never had a problem with hands, I think. The thing is, I don't see many places where they explain underlying structure of the hand. Circles-and-tubes approach or just following measurements may work for other parts of body, but it seems to me that for hands, it's terribly important to know how bones and muscles in hands look like.

I should point out that when that funny thought came into my head I was referring to pics where boobs were kind of the focus, I'm sure if you were doing a comic where hands featured prominently you'd at least take the time to learn decent hands.

Hands feature prominently in every comic.
I remember how "Preacher" artist couldn't draw hands to save his life. He'd draw a room full of people sitting at the table, each of them keeping their hands under the table. It looks ridiculous. They weren't meant to look like they were doing something inappropriate, btw.

Ooo, backgrounds! Wouldn't have even thought of that! (Which, we suppose, is the problem.) It's not that Michelle's bad at them, per se (though, to be honest: not the best)... but so often she just kinda... overlooks... them. It's kinda like, "What? Oh. Yeah. I guess that person is probably standing somewhere. Do I really have to keep drawing all the things? I don't want to. And also, I forgot to."

I thoroughly enjoy drawing backgrounds. Picking up details from photos, imagining what an environment looks like, then fussing over little details... I like that.
I think, for many things that bore you in drawing, you can kinda get around that by trying to find an aspect of it that is interesting to you.

As for women not being able to draw tits, well, most everyone's got hands, haven't they? And it seems a lot of people have trouble drawing those regardless. It doesn't matter how many times you've looked at and seen something if you haven't studied *how to draw it.* I know what a fist looks like, but I don't have the finger/palm or phalange/phalange ratio memorized and often have to look at a reference for certain gestures. If dicks were more prevalent in male-drawn comics, I'd hazard a guess that you'd see a lot of disturbing looking dicks as well.

On the other hand, hands are a complex machinery designed for performing the most delicate tasks, whereas boobs are hanging bags of fat and glands... very attractive fat and very attractive glands, mind you.
Maybe girls don't know how to draw boobs because they're driven to model them on boobs that they've seen in comics, not their own. A lot of people imagine that being good in drawing has more to do with drawing how one's expected to draw, ie following drawing conventions, ie copying how pros draw - rather than interpreting life through drawing.

I looked at some of my old stuff, and I think my biggest issue was my pessimistic attitude. I didn't think I'd be able to draw realistically, and because of that, I didn't feel motivated to try to learn how. It wasn't till around 2008 that I'd gradually improved enough where I started to think, "Y'know, if I actually study anatomy and stuff, maybe I can draw realistically." And that was sort of an intense experience where I was working really hard to try to get it right, but I was also pleased with the results I was getting.

If I had a nickel for every person who tried to convince me that he's absolutely completely unable to learn how to draw, despite never actually drawing... proof of which is, apparently that the first time they tried to draw something, it didn't look very good. And I'm still convinced that each one of them (bar one, perhaps) would have caught himself surprised how some things have smoothed out, if he had stuck with drawing for a couple of years.
User avatar
McDuffies
Bob was here (Moderator)
Bob was here (Moderator)
 
Posts: 29959
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 1999 4:00 pm
Location: Serbia

Re: Art issues: What have you struggled with and why?

Postby Bustertheclown on Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:49 pm

My entire life is "art issues." You'd be surprised at how serious things can be when you're trying to make a cohesive body of work that'll get you into a graduate program.
"Just because we're amateurs, doesn't mean our comics have to be amateurish." -McDuffies

http://hastilyscribbled.comicgenesis.com
User avatar
Bustertheclown
Cartoon Hero
 
Posts: 2386
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2004 9:17 pm
Location: ATOMIC!

Re: Art issues: What have you struggled with and why?

Postby VeryCuddlyCornpone on Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:34 pm

Oh, here was a "D'oh" moment I had the other day. One of those ones where I truly put my pen down and rested my face in my hand for a moment before proceeding. :shifty:

When inking, some lines are thicker, and some are thinner. Thick lines tend to convey that an object is closer to "the camera."

However, the thickness of a line also is helpful in showing how far away the closer object is from whatever we see behind it.
AH-DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHH
Image
Don't kid yourself, friend. I still know how.
"I'd much rather dream about my co-written Meth Beatdown script tonight." -JSConner800000000
User avatar
VeryCuddlyCornpone
Cartoon Hero
 
Posts: 3237
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:02 pm
Location: the spoonited plates of Americup

Re: Art issues: What have you struggled with and why?

Postby Yeahduff on Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:12 pm

Consistency, definitely.
Image
I won't be the stars in your dark night.
User avatar
Yeahduff
Resident Stoic (Moderator)
 
Posts: 9151
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 4:16 pm
Location: I jumped into your grave and died.

Re: Art issues: What have you struggled with and why?

Postby djracodex on Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:15 am

VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:Color has dogged me as long as I can remember. It just doesn't seem to come naturally to me. Thanks to some very rudimentary research, I'm a bit better off than I used to be, but I still don't "get" it on a fundamental level. If I were to pay money and take an actual course, that's what I'd look for.


Cohesive color and shading (I guess they almost go together). I find myself getting really bored when I start the coloring phase, and don't really focus on how background and the focus fit together. Sooo, I just mess with the Hue/Saturation til everything looks about right, and not learn a damn thing.
Shading, ugh. I do cel shading mostly, it has to be confident, and often times it's not. Every shading tutorial I've found is basically the same thing. I should just set up my own light source, curtain-draped chair and have myself my own Art-102 class
Image
User avatar
djracodex
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 179
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Art issues: What have you struggled with and why?

Postby LibertyCabbage on Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:45 am

McDuffies wrote:If I had a nickel for every person who tried to convince me that he's absolutely completely unable to learn how to draw, despite never actually drawing... proof of which is, apparently that the first time they tried to draw something, it didn't look very good. And I'm still convinced that each one of them (bar one, perhaps) would have caught himself surprised how some things have smoothed out, if he had stuck with drawing for a couple of years.
Yeah. When I hear "I can't draw," it's easy to interpret that as, "I lack the diligence and patience to learn how to draw." Well, okay, but those qualities can be developed. And any non-drawing creative endeavor, whether it's sprites, Poser, script-writing, or something else, is gonna require those qualities to excel.

djracodex wrote:Cohesive color and shading (I guess they almost go together). I find myself getting really bored when I start the coloring phase, and don't really focus on how background and the focus fit together. Sooo, I just mess with the Hue/Saturation til everything looks about right, and not learn a damn thing.
Coloring's a weak area of mine as well, but at the point I'm at, I'd consider further specializing in black-and-white art to be a higher priority. Every artist has strengths and weaknesses, and I don't consider it necessary to try to be great at everything.
ImageImage
"Seems like the only comics that would be good to this person are super action crazy lines, mega poses!"
User avatar
LibertyCabbage
Cartoon Hero
 
Posts: 4663
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:08 pm
Location: bat country

Re: Art issues: What have you struggled with and why?

Postby VeryCuddlyCornpone on Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:53 am

LibertyCabbage wrote:Coloring's a weak area of mine as well, but at the point I'm at, I'd consider further specializing in black-and-white art to be a higher priority. Every artist has strengths and weaknesses, and I don't consider it necessary to try to be great at everything.

This is an important thing to keep in mind. Improvements are of course always welcome, but it's not like you need to be a master of every single thing, since it's not possible time wise for the majority of us. One thing about becoming a better artist (or comics creator in this specific case) is learning what skills you should expand on now in order to better your current work, and what skills (while good to learn) can be neglected for now or indefinitely.

I'm trying to think of a good example because I realize what I wrote kind of sounds like "Be lazy and only do the bare minimum of study" which isn't what I'm saying at all. Basically for those of us who do this in our spare time as opposed to devoting our lives to the craft, you have to pick and choose what to focus your efforts on. It never hurts to learn more about something even if it's tangentially related at best, but from a realistic standpoint sometimes there just isn't time.
Image
Don't kid yourself, friend. I still know how.
"I'd much rather dream about my co-written Meth Beatdown script tonight." -JSConner800000000
User avatar
VeryCuddlyCornpone
Cartoon Hero
 
Posts: 3237
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:02 pm
Location: the spoonited plates of Americup

Re: Art issues: What have you struggled with and why?

Postby LibertyCabbage on Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:38 am

VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:I'm trying to think of a good example because I realize what I wrote kind of sounds like "Be lazy and only do the bare minimum of study" which isn't what I'm saying at all. Basically for those of us who do this in our spare time as opposed to devoting our lives to the craft, you have to pick and choose what to focus your efforts on. It never hurts to learn more about something even if it's tangentially related at best, but from a realistic standpoint sometimes there just isn't time.
Yeah, and I think the main thing's that everyone has their preferred genre/s, and each genre has different artistic focuses. As amateurs, we have more than enough on our plates already just trying to be good enough at our favored genre/s, so trying to also be good at additional genres is wishful thinking.

Aside from that, though, there are still common elements that every genre requires, like anatomy and perspective. But if you can get that stuff down and get your genre-specific stuff down, then you're doing pretty damn good.
ImageImage
"Seems like the only comics that would be good to this person are super action crazy lines, mega poses!"
User avatar
LibertyCabbage
Cartoon Hero
 
Posts: 4663
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:08 pm
Location: bat country

Re: Art issues: What have you struggled with and why?

Postby McDuffies on Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:45 pm

VeryCuddlyCornpone wrote:I'm trying to think of a good example because I realize what I wrote kind of sounds like "Be lazy and only do the bare minimum of study" which isn't what I'm saying at all.

I learned to play guitar but I only learned the way it's played in genres of music I listen to. I have little motivation to learn to play, say, funk guitar, since that's the music genre that interests me very little. Of course it's nice know as much as possible and if I was a professional guitarist there's be a little excuse to have as narrow scope as I have now. But I'm not.
User avatar
McDuffies
Bob was here (Moderator)
Bob was here (Moderator)
 
Posts: 29959
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 1999 4:00 pm
Location: Serbia

Re: Art issues: What have you struggled with and why?

Postby Peripheral Descent on Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:03 pm

RobboAKAscooby wrote:I just posted this on my dA journal:
Poorly drawn boobies.


Actually, it makes perfect sense, when you think of it. Who spends more time dreaming, thinking, and looking at boobs? People who like them, of course. Heterosexual males make up a huge percentage of that, so it stands to reason guys learn to draw breasts much better than girls. My best friend, a guy, learned to draw an amazing set of cleavage while I was still struggling to put them on the same plane of existence.

I struggled with drawing men. I kept giving them lady curves, because I learned to draw women before men. That was always awkward.

I struggled with a lot. I still do, but at least I have clever ways of disguising my boo-boos, so they're not as obvious. My lineart is crap, and I have a horrible time shading things to look 3-dimensional. When I shade someone's head, I shade it like a ball, rather than a complex set of features. What I tend to do, is colour the shit out of my drawings, so your eyes are drawn away from my mistakes. It works nicely. :D
User avatar
Peripheral Descent
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:07 pm

Re: Art issues: What have you struggled with and why?

Postby Terotrous on Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:08 pm

Action poses always gave me a lot of trouble. I think some of this was because my characters weren't anywhere near anatomically correct to start with, so it wasn't always clear how real actions would map to their unusual proportions. However, over time I've gotten a little better at it and my designs have slightly more in common with real anatomy now.


Perspective always used to baffle me, but I've now reached the point where I can at least tell if the perspective is incorrect. I don't always know how to fix it, but at least I can identify that something is wrong and keep fiddling with it until it looks correct.


I still have trouble with anything that comes out towards the viewpoint, though. For example, a pose where someone reaches out towards the camera pretty much always looks weird when I try to draw it. This is probably partially because I use flat colours, I think shading might make this a bit easier to indicate.
What Lies Beyond - A Psychological Fantasy Novel
Image
Stuff that updates sometimes:
ImageImage
I also did phbites.comicgenesis.com and hntrac.comicgenesis.com way back when.
User avatar
Terotrous
Cartoon Hero
 
Posts: 1975
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2003 6:23 pm
Location: Canada, eh?

Re: Art issues: What have you struggled with and why?

Postby McDuffies on Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:07 am

Terotrous wrote:I still have trouble with anything that comes out towards the viewpoint, though. For example, a pose where someone reaches out towards the camera pretty much always looks weird when I try to draw it. This is probably partially because I use flat colours, I think shading might make this a bit easier to indicate.

I don't think that anyone is good at this. I see it bungled up so often in professional comics, I tend to think the only way anyone ever gets it right is by accident.
User avatar
McDuffies
Bob was here (Moderator)
Bob was here (Moderator)
 
Posts: 29959
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 1999 4:00 pm
Location: Serbia

Re: Art issues: What have you struggled with and why?

Postby djracodex on Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:40 pm

McDuffies wrote:
Terotrous wrote:I still have trouble with anything that comes out towards the viewpoint, though. For example, a pose where someone reaches out towards the camera pretty much always looks weird when I try to draw it. This is probably partially because I use flat colours, I think shading might make this a bit easier to indicate.

I don't think that anyone is good at this. I see it bungled up so often in professional comics, I tend to think the only way anyone ever gets it right is by accident.


I actually found a pretty good app. It take a little getting used to, but you can pose your model however you want, and view it from any perspective. It's also got different body types and gender, you can view your pose as a person, lines, boxes, and muscles. It's got 3 different lighting options, and you can save your pose. I can't remember how much I paid for it (couldn't have been too much), but it was totally worth it. I no longer have to rake through google for the right pose at the right angle.
Image
User avatar
djracodex
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 179
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Art issues: What have you struggled with and why?

Postby McDuffies on Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:38 am

I've seen those kind of things... I'm a bit of a purist myself you cheater.
User avatar
McDuffies
Bob was here (Moderator)
Bob was here (Moderator)
 
Posts: 29959
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 1999 4:00 pm
Location: Serbia

Re: Art issues: What have you struggled with and why?

Postby VinnieD on Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:01 pm

Right now. Going on three solid months of art block. The plans are already there, I even have some rough storyboards scribbled up. It's all planned, I just can't seem to make it happen when pencil meets paper.
User avatar
VinnieD
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 795
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 12:01 am

Next

 

Return to General Discussion



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron