How does this webcomic thing work, again?

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Re: How does this webcomic thing work, again?

Postby Bustertheclown on Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:12 pm

Komiyan wrote:Schedules are basically the only way to build an audience.


I disagree. That might've been true years ago, but the internet has changed, and along with it, people's habits have changed. Ten years ago, the strongest model to follow was to pick an update schedule, and stick with it religiously, lest you piss off the Old Gods of the Tubes, and they swallow your work right up, never to be seen. But in these days of Digital Enlightenment, there are so many social networking tools out there to broadcast fresh updates, depending upon old dogmas is far less crucial. The page at a time became obsolete as a model for all but the gag strip as soon as broadband surfaced, and thank goodness for that, because it's a miserable way to make someone read a comic. It's like saying, "Alright, I'll let you read my copy of The Sandman, but only page one for now. I'll give you page two next week." I'm very happy to see that the model is dying off and among some of the better comics out there, it's being replaced by the blog method, which promotes long-scrolling batch uploads of many pages at a time. (Full disclosure: I'm still not convinced that The Oatmeal is a comic, so much as it is an illustrated blog, but it calls itself a comic, it's wildly popular, it scrolls down forever, which illustrates the meat of my point.)

Even for batch uploaders, maintaining buffers and strict schedules is just not necessary. Maybe when the only real tools that cartoonists had on hand were RSS subscriptions and dedicated forums to serve their audience, update regularity was a way to ensure that people will keep coming back to look at your work. By all means, you should keep working, and produce fresh content on a fairly regular basis, but acting like every page you complete has to get posted right now, or people will forget is just unnecessary. Between Facebook and Twitter and Reddit and Digg (and the sea of other content-middleman networks out there) within the course of 160 characters and a link, everyone who is connected to your comic-- and then some, if you're doing it right-- is suddenly reminded that you exist. No fuss, no muss, no Saturday apology updates for lack of new content, because you decided to go out drinking Friday night, instead of chaining yourself to your drawing board. Graphic novels have come to the web, and people are far more prepared to treat webcomics in a more long-form fashion than in the old days.

So, no, maintaining a regular schedule is not the only way to gain an audience. I'm not convinced that it's even the best way. As far as I can see, gaining an audience is first and foremost about doing your best work, and then networking that work to eyes that will appreciate it. It's a far less insular community out there. You don't have to kiss the asses of other "more popular" cartoonists, you don't have to force shitty creative conditions upon yourself, and you sure as hell don't have to force shitty reading conditions upon your audience. What you do have to do is make interesting work of a high standard, post it when it's ready to be published and then promote your work to every link hub on the internet when it is posted. Serialize it if you want to, but don't believe for a minute that it's what you have to do.
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Re: How does this webcomic thing work, again?

Postby IVstudios on Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:04 pm

But keeping to a regular update schedule doesn't force the reader to read the pages one at a time. They can let a few entries build up and read them in chunks, just like if they were all uploaded at once. Or they can read them as they come.

One-at-a-timing it gives readers the option to do it either way. A bulk upload might be appealing to someone who has time to sit down and read a whole chapter, but some people like to just check out the latest page during a 5 minute down time at work or while they're checking their email.

You have to remember that the attention span of people on the internet is very short. It's not uncommon for someone to go "20 new pages? I don't have time to read that." leave and then forget the comic again until the next 20 page upload, where they do it again. Whereas with a few pages going up a week they get a constant reminder of "Oh yeah, I need to catch up on that comic."
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Re: How does this webcomic thing work, again?

Postby Bustertheclown on Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:52 pm

I just don't buy it. Giving readers small bites at a time is a creator-side imposition. We can go round and round debating how readers prefer to read, but the whole "they like a single page with their morning coffee" slant has always come off as disingenuous rationalizing to me. It's not how I read. It's not how I have ever read. It's not how anyone that I know reads. Either way, the build-up logic can be applied in reverse, as well. If people really only want to read a couple of pages of a comic, what's to stop them from doing so with a batch? At least when given the work all at once, readers can choose to read all, or some, or none at their own discretion. They aren't being dictated to.

Ultimately, though, the reason why I have a great distaste for models that don't utilize some sort of batching is that it screws with the narrative. As a creator, your first duty should be toward telling a good story, and a good story tends to be something that feels complete, or at least has some sense of a plot arc. The page-at-a-time method screws with that in a big way because it always runs the risk of having someone come into the work incomplete. It's off-putting to invest a lot of time to a story, only to reach an abrupt end of material before there's any resolution. Even episodes and chapters have arcs, in order to give the audience a place to pause before continuing. A single page rarely manages that effect, and does so to any sort of satisfaction even more rarely. Allow me to be clear on this: when I reference batches, my main point is that a lot of comics posted to the web are strictly long-form. The creators mean for them to be read as one would a graphic novel. Then, they go and post a single page at a time, hobbling the narrative structure. It's lose/lose. The creator is holding to an update model that's currently outdated and doesn't best serve how their work should be seen, and the reader is forced to see incomplete work based upon assumptions that the creator has made about how they prefer to read. After ten years at pressing this issue, nobody has managed to convince me that I'm wrong. I still can't fathom why any creator of long-form work would ever even consider doing such a crippling thing to their work. Posting a bunch of gag strips all together isn't going to hurt the stand-alone quality of the gags, so batches aren't a detriment to gags the way that single-page systems are a detriment to long-form comics.

That isn't to say that keeping a regular schedule isn't a good way to go about it, or that a page at a time doesn't serve certain types of comics, and so I don't really want to get bogged down in another single-page vs batch debate. Certainly, batches can be episodic and managed via a regular schedule, as well. The real issue I take, here, is exactly what I quoted by Komiyan:

Komiyan wrote:Schedules are basically the only way to build an audience.


It's simply not true. There are too many models that can be judged successful at finding an audience without sticking to some strict schedule of updating. The caveat, I think, is that-- no matter what-- if you do want to be successful, you have to be willing to produce a lot of fresh material at a noticeable rate. That's what the people who are most successful at this game do. Whether via a schedule or not, whether uploading single pages or blocks, the thing that the success stories have in common, really, is that they don't stop working, and they don't stop providing a reason for people to keep coming back to check in. I can't stress enough that that is different from merely keeping a schedule. The folks who keep a schedule that uploads a page a day are going to be on better footing than those who can only manage a page a week or less. More material equals more opportunities to draw and keep interest, and that's a much more hard and fast rule of the internet than statements like "the internet has a short attention span," which is sometimes true, and usually only when it's convenient. More Material = More Attention is a rule that crosses over well, whether it's comics, blogs, tweets, youtube channels, podcasts, or whatever. The more you offer, the more people will come around to take.
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Alt argument "Gunnerkrigg Court: Your argument is invalid"

Postby IVstudios on Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:01 pm

Bustertheclown wrote:It's not how I read. It's not how I have ever read. It's not how anyone that I know reads.

You know me (well, sort of), and that's how I read. I generally don't like doing more than 5 pages of a comic at a time. Zebra Girl, as an example, has a very long form, intricate plot and does the one-at-at-time thing. I've never had any particular problem following it, and if I ever do I can go back through the archives.


Bustertheclown wrote:Either way, the build-up logic can be applied in reverse, as well. If people really only want to read a couple of pages of a comic, what's to stop them from doing so with a batch? At least when given the work all at once, readers can choose to read all, or some, or none at their own discretion. They aren't being dictated to.

They are being just as dictated to either way. Whether you do a page-a-day or batch uploading then theoretically the story will always be at the same point in the long run. (Does that make sense? It makes sense in my head.) If you're doing the batch method and your next batch doesn't go up until the end of the month, you're still dictating to the reader "you can't see this until it's done." Not that there's anything wrong with that, but you are still dictating how the readers receive the comic.

Bustertheclown wrote:Ultimately, though, the reason why I have a great distaste for models that don't utilize some sort of batching is that it screws with the narrative. As a creator, your first duty should be toward telling a good story, and a good story tends to be something that feels complete, or at least has some sense of a plot arc.

This is a fair point, but only if you choose to make your writing to only suit the long form. There are other ways to deal with it besides batch uploading. Even in a long form comic it's possible to make each page feel self contained. Have a joke or small cliff hanger in the last panel, or just pace out the comic so each page deals with a specific chunk of the whole, and still fits into a larger arc. Now if that's not the feel you want for your comic that's perfectly fine, but it is very much a legitimate way to do things. (And again, Zebra Girl. Not effort to make the pages feel self contained but I've never had a problem getting into the story.)


Bustertheclown wrote:Posting a bunch of gag strips all together isn't going to hurt the stand-alone quality of the gags, so batches aren't a detriment to gags the way that single-page systems are a detriment to long-form comics.

I'm going to (partially) disagree with you there. It is very easy to burn out on a gag-a-day type thing if you get too many at once. One chocolate covered cherry is delicious, 500 chocolate covered cherries will make you throw up. Now like you said, if they only want a few they can only read (eat?) a few, but that puts an (albeit minor) inconvenience on the reader of having to remember where they left off when they come back. Or maybe they just say "God damn, that's way to many cherries." and leave.

Bustertheclown wrote:
Komiyan wrote:Schedules are basically the only way to build an audience.


It's simply not true. There are too many models that can be judged successful at finding an audience without sticking to some strict schedule of updating.

I'm going to (again partially) disagree. People like to know when they can expect more of a thing they like. Now, that doesn't mean you have to one-at-at-time it, you can do batches too, but do them regularly. Or say "Hey, new comics on the 15th!" and make damn sure when the 15th rolls around there are some new comics. Either way people want to be able to anticipate when the thing they like is going to be there. People like habits, and if they can't predict when your stuff is going to be up it IS going to hurt your readership. It may not be the only factor, but it is a factor. A fairly large one. (In fairness: My Zebra Girl argument totally breaks down here. That updates wheneverthehellitwants and I still love it.)

If you want to do batches, and weave you're carefully crafted high-art narrative and if the audience doesn't like it it's because they're too dumb to appreciate good art, go for it. But don't act like it's automatically superior to other methods just because it's the one you prefer. Presenting a story as a whole has it's merits. Presenting it a piece at a time has it's merits.
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Re: Alt argument "Gunnerkrigg Court: Your argument is invali

Postby robotthepirate on Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:47 am

IVstudios wrote:Zebra Girl, Zebra Girl, Zebra Girl...


I'm glad that's still going. It looked like he might quit at one point but I'm glad he didn't.


Also, batch updates are fine if you can do them, I personally like the obligation to have the next comic done by a certain date (without rushing) as it makes me put the time in even when I don't feel like it. My work even seems to stumble when I try to make buffers. I feel the need to be living the story with the readers only ever one comic ahead of what they are so that I'm telling the story for myself as well as them. Otherwise by the time I release the comic I don't care about it any more, it's old news.

IVstudios wrote:
Bustertheclown wrote:Posting a bunch of gag strips all together isn't going to hurt the stand-alone quality of the gags, so batches aren't a detriment to gags the way that single-page systems are a detriment to long-form comics.

I'm going to (partially) disagree with you there. It is very easy to burn out on a gag-a-day type thing if you get too many at once. One chocolate covered cherry is delicious, 500 chocolate covered cherries will make you throw up. Now like you said, if they only want a few they can only read (eat?) a few, but that puts an (albeit minor) inconvenience on the reader of having to remember where they left off when they come back. Or maybe they just say "God damn, that's way to many cherries." and leave.


I used to read Count Your Sheep. It was one of my favourites for being so cute and because it updated 5 days a week. Then my computer broke and I went quite a few months before I could catch up on all the comics I read. When I came to CYS the prospect of having to dig through all those months of mon-fri updates meant I just gave up and never went back. It's a point that's neither for or against batch comics, more just a point that a lot of updates can sometimes put people off. Like trying to read through 9 years of Mansion of E (8 to go). At least with story comics you remember what was happening in the story and hopefully there's a useful archive with chapters and stuff.


I'm sure all this will have been covered somewhere else. We debate these things often.
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Re: How does this webcomic thing work, again?

Postby Komiyan on Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:26 am

All I'm saying is, having worked to a schedule and worked without one, you get a far bigger audience with than without. People like the regularity.
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Re: How does this webcomic thing work, again?

Postby robotthepirate on Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:14 pm

Komiyan wrote:People like the regularity.


You can even get tablets for it.

Personally i forget when people are suppost to update and check most of my comics every day, even at the weekends. So if most days you get at least one visit from the same part of the UK it means I follow your comic. Even comics that are suppost to update on a specific day, if they're based on the US's west coast and they update late then chances are I'll be on the next day by then. I guess the Aussies amongst us have that even moreso. Goblins updates about 20:00 my time on Tuesdays and Fridays so I usually read it on Wednesdays and Saturdays.

I follow some comics on Facebook (not sure how many of you have comics on there actually) but if all I was relying on to tell me the next chapter of a comic was out was facebook I'd probably miss the updates amid all the pictures of puppies and sentimental rubbish people repost on there. If (WHEN!) I finally get back on with RTP I'm planning on using the Event thingumy to tell people the latest chapters been completed, I did that last time and got a fair boost in readership for a few days.
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Re: How does this webcomic thing work, again?

Postby Mo on Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:00 pm

Komiyan wrote:Basically just knock out a rudimentary site and draw and worry about the rest later, honestly.

Yeah, well, if you're going to be all sensible about it... :)

Mostly I want to do it to force myself to regularly draw again and improve my drawing / illustration and tablet skills, but I would lie if I didn't say it would be nice to pick up the odd reader as well.

By the way I have just started reading Widdershins and now feel very fangirly all of a sudden. Also, intimidated.
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Re: How does this webcomic thing work, again?

Postby Ti-Phil on Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:00 pm

Komiyan wrote:All I'm saying is, having worked to a schedule and worked without one, you get a far bigger audience with than without. People like the regularity.


That is true, and it is a good reason to actually work on the comic (other than wanting to see the end of the story if you have a big plot in mind).
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Re: How does this webcomic thing work, again?

Postby Yeahduff on Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:08 pm

People like regularity but you have to decide what's best for your work. For one thing, I know damn well I'm never going to be on schedule, so stressing out about it is worthless at this point. But for another, I did have a particular vision for my work, and I was trying to fit it into a model that just didn't make any sense. And the work suffered for it.

People have tablets now where they can read twenty or thirty pages while sitting on the bus on the way to school/work. Looking at an 8:1 page with your morning coffee just isn't gonna do it for you the way Sin City or Zits will (actually, nobody read Zits). Putting yourself on schedule is the quickest path to popularity, but it's not like fewer people read Blankets because it wasn't put out in smaller increments daily (the book a day model has worked remarkably well for Nicholas Sparks, on the other hand).

Point is, you have a choice. Chances are your audience will find you if you're doing it right.

To our dear Spacer these thoughts are supposed to be addressed to, I'll say it sound like you want a scheduled excuse for drawing more than to satisfy a particular vision. So page-atta-time seems a good bet.
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Re: How does this webcomic thing work, again?

Postby Komiyan on Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:24 pm

Yeahduff wrote:People like regularity but you have to decide what's best for your work. For one thing, I know damn well I'm never going to be on schedule, so stressing out about it is worthless at this point. But for another, I did have a particular vision for my work, and I was trying to fit it into a model that just didn't make any sense. And the work suffered for it.

Oh yeah, work at your own pace. I was just talking in terms of 'audience building', in pure numbers terms, regular is the way to go, but like I said before, just draw it and see how you end up.

Mo wrote:By the way I have just started reading Widdershins and now feel very fangirly all of a sudden. Also, intimidated.

Aw, thanks :) I have fun with it and it pays the bills, which is what I wanted, so woo
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Re: How does this webcomic thing work, again?

Postby Phact0rri on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:01 am

A schedule also assists people to find your comic. The more an index page changes helps a pages google ranking. The more pages you have tied to your hierarchy the better google rank. The more times you post of Facebook, twitter, blogspot, G+, etc about having a new page up... helps your google rank. The sort of SEO that doesn't make you feel like a scumbag.
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Re: How does this webcomic thing work, again?

Postby Mo on Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:52 am

Phact0rri wrote:A schedule also assists people to find your comic. The more an index page changes helps a pages google ranking. The more pages you have tied to your hierarchy the better google rank. The more times you post of Facebook, twitter, blogspot, G+, etc about having a new page up... helps your google rank. The sort of SEO that doesn't make you feel like a scumbag.

That is another excellent point to consider, thanks :)

The setting and story is starting to take shape and I'm excited to (hopefully) get back into the world of cartooning. Let's see how long it lasts.

How many pages would you guys reckon makes a good buffer when starting to actually post pages online? In my previous comics I never had buffers to start with really, or only a few pages. It didn't work out very well. How do you stay focused and motivated even when you have no or hardly any readers to begin with?
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Re: How does this webcomic thing work, again?

Postby Bustertheclown on Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:56 am

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Re: How does this webcomic thing work, again?

Postby Shucking Oysters on Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:58 am

Mo wrote:How many pages would you guys reckon makes a good buffer when starting to actually post pages online? In my previous comics I never had buffers to start with really, or only a few pages. It didn't work out very well. How do you stay focused and motivated even when you have no or hardly any readers to begin with?


Oooh! Oooh! Finally a question I can answer! The second one anyway... truth be told, I had a buffer for a while, but as I started really focusing on improving the art, that quickly dried up.

For as for motivation: honestly (and this might just be my personality quirk) I'm doing this for myself. It's a hobby, it's something I enjoy doing, but one I don't mind throwing out for the rest of the world to see. At the moment, I have zero regular readers including my roommate (bless you Google Analytics), but as long as it's fun, I doubt motivation will be much of a problem.

On the converse, for something like this, if you're not having fun doing it, why do it at all?
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Re: How does this webcomic thing work, again?

Postby LibertyCabbage on Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:49 am

Shucking Oysters wrote:Oooh! Oooh! Finally a question I can answer! The second one anyway... truth be told, I had a buffer for a while, but as I started really focusing on improving the art, that quickly dried up.

And starting off burning through your buffer at 5x a week was kinda-maybe not such a great idea. =P

As for how much buffer to start with, how about, say, three months' worth? It kinda seems like a lot, but I've seen so many instances over the years of "no comic today 'cause sick/holidays/finals/computer/WoW" that it's pretty much the norm. Or, even worse, "no comic today, so here's an animated .gif I made of my cat dancing," which, five years later, is still lingering in the comic's archives, right in the middle of a climactic death scene that was supposed to be a tearjerker.

That said, I'm kinda in the same boat as Mo, currently doing concept art and practice drawing for my next project, and I've basically settled on avoiding trying to follow any sort of schedule at all as a compromise to keep myself from getting overly stressed out about doing the comic. I'm hoping that once I get comfortable drawing and start on the actual pages, that drawing them will feel natural enough that having a schedule won't seem so intimidating, but I've managed to convince myself that if that I'm unable to stick to a schedule, that I'd be okay with it.

Shucking Oysters wrote:For as for motivation: honestly (and this might just be my personality quirk) I'm doing this for myself. It's a hobby, it's something I enjoy doing, but one I don't mind throwing out for the rest of the world to see. At the moment, I have zero regular readers including my roommate (bless you Google Analytics), but as long as it's fun, I doubt motivation will be much of a problem.

On the converse, for something like this, if you're not having fun doing it, why do it at all?

It's not just a "personality quirk"; that's totally the right attitude to have with webcomics.
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Re: How does this webcomic thing work, again?

Postby Phact0rri on Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:49 am

How I keep motivated on projects is setting time aside and knowing this hour is to work on this thing, or what not.
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Re: How does this webcomic thing work, again?

Postby chainmailbikini on Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:24 pm

Not that I'm an experienced webcomicker or anything, but I decided to start off slow with the intent of posting more often once I feel comfortable with the pace. I've been doing once a week so far and it's been going well. I've always been a fan of the genre I'm working in and I'm actually excited to see where my own story will go, so that's been helping me to keep advancing the plot.
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Re: How does this webcomic thing work, again?

Postby spoonyliger on Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:37 pm

Phact0rri wrote:How I keep motivated on projects is setting time aside and knowing this hour is to work on this thing, or what not.

chainmailbikini wrote:I've always been a fan of the genre I'm working in and I'm actually excited to see where my own story will go, so that's been helping me to keep advancing the plot.


Hm. Glad to know I'm not the only one.
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Postby Mo on Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:07 am

This sounds an awful lot like planning... :(
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