How are you doing, comic-wise?

[Sortelli]

Ugh, I am feeling really burnt out right now. This was supposed to be a big week and I'm not very happy with the pages I've made, even after burning more time than usual on them... which had the side effect of making me rush to finish past my bedtime too. I may re-do those pages entirely... hopefully I'll be happy with what I come out with on Monday at least.

[McDuffies]

I feel like writing so I'm gonna join this discussion too.

In many situations, doing the former leads to the latter. The dude drawing his fetish comic with no rules develops a following from people who don't give a shit he's not following the rules, because he caters to their fetish. And I said approximate something adequate, meaning that they are trying to put up the paint and molding before the structural beams of the house are even built. They look at artists they think are "good" and copy just enough to get by to the uncaring eye.

They get joy from creating, because I think pretty much everyone does in some way, but it's fed by creating something that other people react positively to (whether those reactions are actually sincere/warranted or whatnot). You have some creators that make something purely because they can, but other people don't care about it, so instead of sharing it online they keep it to themselves. It happens. You have some creators that have grown to hate what they create, but other people ravenously consume it, so they force themselves to continue. Those two groups I would say aren't the people we're usually talking about here. What I'm talking about is the people who revel in being "self-taught" and never taking criticism, or are just not open to the idea, who nevertheless develop a following. They get joy from both- from feeling like they're good artists because their art looks surfacely like the work of Actual Seasoned Professional Creator A, and from feeling like they're good artists because they're getting a decent amount of views and readers online. They go hand in hand as opposed to being opposite ends of a binary.

Art is fun in its own right, but some people get the idea that having to do any sort of study/research/work towards it would take away from the fun they might be having, feeling like it takes away from their ability to express themselves "fully." I really don't feel that the two feelings- drawing for oneself and drawing for others- are actually at odds. Drawing is therapeutic and fun for me, and I enjoy getting feedback from readers who enjoy my work. If one of those ceased to be true, my output would decrease considerably, especially if it was the first clause. Either way I'm sure I'm not alone in that- I don't draw just for me or just for everyone else. There are many contributing factors to why I work on comics.


edit:Because I think I got a little carried away- I DO understand, though, the hypocrisy of people who seem to care awfully a lot about what people on the internet think, until someone else actually says something negative, and then they spin right around and claim "Oh I don't care what they think, I'm just doing this for fun, it's just a hobby, I'm not a professional, I don't care what anyone thinks."

I think that, for the same of simplifying things, people are making a duality where there isn't one.
It's like how people often categorize personalities to "intellectual" and "emotional" as if those are two mutually exclusive extremes, when they aren't even on the same scale.
I don't think that creativity exists without joy in creating, nor joy in sharing what you've created. Every creative personality feels desire for both, and I'm kinda starting to feel like leaning towards either of those is an artificial thing. I mean attitude towards it is often created by circumstances, like if you don't get good feedback with your current state of art, you adjust your expectations based on how much you feel like working on your art. And key word is that you adjust expectations, not desires. I mean we have a lot of examples on this very forum of people who stopped caring about this or that when circumstances showed that a certain kind of recognition is or isn't coming. I mean I may look like I stopped caring for readership, but that would mean that, if I became popular tomorrow, I will say "yeah, whatever". Which won't happen. I'd be happy like a puppy in an elevator.
But anyways I think, part of creativity is pride. It's pride in a produced work, because when you finish a nice page and you look at it, you're all like: "wow, this is something that I created with my own hands. It didn't exist, and then I worked, and now it does exist!" And a natural part of that pride is pride in sharing it with people. Sometimes because you enjoy making people laugh and generally entertaining them (it's certainly a reason why I make a lot of comics which I share only with friends), other times just because. And pride is, I think, nothing to be ashamed of.
That's the part where I always argue with people who aren't involved in creative stuff. There seems to be an opinion floating around that all creativity stems from narcissism. The line of thought is, if you're creating and sharing something, that means that you revel in being a center of attention et cetera. And I just know that my creative impulse comes from different place. I know that I used to make comics back before internet, before I was living in a big city, back when a chance of ever publishing any comic seemed miniscule. I know that for years I was making comics for an audience of one, and I didn't have a reason to think that it would ever be different. Even with a band, I like taking the stage and all, but the real joy comes from being a part of the group, part of the process. Heck, if a band has five members, and there's only one frontman and thus center of attention, what are the other four doing there? (I know quite a few people who are in bands for attention, and you usually recognize them for insisting on being a singer despite their limitations and never getting around to learning an instrument, or otherwise if they're guitarists, always stepping over other people's parts, covering other people's playing, unable to be in the background. But most of musicians I know are more at ease in the background, because it allows you to play without pressure of frontman's position.)
I oughta read some books on psychology of creativity, I bought some here and there but didn't have time to read them. It's interesting topic and one where I can't get around to any satisfying conclusions.

Also, one of reasons why I always tried to improve was simply to be able to draw more different things. Like if I want a moderately erotic scene, I gotta be a fuckin' good artist because otherwise it will look ridiculous and I won't be satisfied myself, audience opinion be damned. Similar to many other things, the better you draw, the more complicated things you're able to draw, so mostly you can't wait to get better for the simple reason of being able to draw that ambitious project that you always wanted to do but didn't feel adequate.

Right. Even if the Internet's accessibility leads to 100 crappy webcomics, one great comic that's able to be shared online because of it makes the open system worthwhile.

Also there is a certain kind of comics that can be created only in certain environment. I honestly believe that for Gunnerkrieg Court to exist, one RPG World had to exist, one Elf Life had to exist, and maybe even one Dominic Deegan had to exist, because that's an environment conductive for creation of one Gunnerkrieg Court and it is unlikely that the same comic could be created in, say, environment of printed comic books.

I read it as that he's disinterested in high-brow, literary fiction in general. It's a pedestrian viewpoint, yeah, but the question is, is there merit in pedestrian criticism? I don't know, but I think it's worth considering. After all, as you mentioned, webcomics are "the most socialist medium out there" (well, "populist" would be more accurate); so, is it appropriate for webcomic reviews to take a more populist approach as well compared to, say, prose reviews? I can't really say, but that this particular review challenges the traditional idea of criticism makes it worthwhile to me even if El Santo's wrong.

From my reviewers, I expect no less than being versatile and able to enjoy all kinds of comics, a variety of qualities that a comic can posses.
The point is though, his critical opinion devalued for me. He's probably a great guy, even intelligent. Those are all characteristics that I would care a lot for, if I was to hang with this guy. But if I'm to simply read his reviews, his critical opinion and his taste account for much more.

[LibertyCabbage]

Also there is a certain kind of comics that can be created only in certain environment. I honestly believe that for Gunnerkrieg Court to exist, one RPG World had to exist, one Elf Life had to exist, and maybe even one Dominic Deegan had to exist, because that's an environment conductive for creation of one Gunnerkrieg Court and it is unlikely that the same comic could be created in, say, environment of printed comic books.

For sure. As you're aware, American print comics are superheroes, superheroes, superheroes, more superheroes, and occasionally some indie stuff here and there if you look for it. Webcomics provide an alternative to that.

The point is though, his critical opinion devalued for me. He's probably a great guy, even intelligent. Those are all characteristics that I would care a lot for, if I was to hang with this guy. But if I'm to simply read his reviews, his critical opinion and his taste account for much more.

That's actually a really good point I hadn't thought about. While readers might be able to relate to an "Average Joe," being unbiased enough to be a good reviewer isn't a quality an "Average Joe" has. Even if El Santo dislikes high-brow fiction in general, it doesn't mean there can't be exceptions, which is something he doesn't really consider. Another problem is that he suggests that since he doesn't like Ulysses the novel, he can't like Ulysses the graphic novel, which isn't automatically true. In that sense, he misses the mark by focusing on the novel, which he didn't read, while neglecting to thoroughly cover the webcomic, which he did read.

[Cope]

Also there is a certain kind of comics that can be created only in certain environment. I honestly believe that for Gunnerkrieg Court to exist, one RPG World had to exist, one Elf Life had to exist, and maybe even one Dominic Deegan had to exist, because that's an environment conductive for creation of one Gunnerkrieg Court and it is unlikely that the same comic could be created in, say, environment of printed comic books.

For sure. As you're aware, American print comics are superheroes, superheroes, superheroes, more superheroes, and occasionally some indie stuff here and there if you look for it.

...and also newspaper strips!

[Sortelli]

...and also newspaper strips!

marmaduke stop misbehaving this instant marmaduke nooo you are such a large and bothersome dog

[K-Dawg]

I'm just here to say No Scrying makes my pants tight!

So good gurl!

[Sortelli]

MAN am I glad your computer is working again, the internet has been miserable without you!

[K-Dawg]

I was dying. I can only do so much on my smartphone.

But now I'm back and I can resume comics and returns of monkeys and frogs!

[Sortelli]

The world does not deserve such good tidings, and it better say "Thank You, K-Dawg. Thank You." Or else it is getting no supper!

[IVstudios]

But now I'm back and I can resume comics and returns of monkeys and frogs!

Finally, the nature documentary comic I've been waiting for!

[K-Dawg]

It just feels soooo good to be back.

[Humbug]

I finished the tavern scene, whoot! Which puts me at page 43 (well, 41 if you disregard the 2-page spreads.) Next up is the Parliament House scene.

[Sortelli]

I'm hoping I'll have a strip done today but I'm having a hell of a time balancing schedule with quality. Finished flats on Monday's comic but realized I needed more backgrounds. Dunno if I'm going to be able to keep a schedule going at all, maybe I should just hit once a week and try for awesome pages, but the pace of the story will crawl to a halt that way.

[Humbug]

That's pretty much what I'm doing, for me quality is more important than uploading more pages a week. Especially since I want to actually print the comic in the future, it has to look good. :3

[VeryCuddlyCornpone]

I'm hoping I'll have a strip done today but I'm having a hell of a time balancing schedule with quality. Finished flats on Monday's comic but realized I needed more backgrounds. Dunno if I'm going to be able to keep a schedule going at all, maybe I should just hit once a week and try for awesome pages, but the pace of the story will crawl to a halt that way.

I have a similar paroblem. I never really "rush" art so it's not like it would look bad that way (if I try to "just go faster" i invariably slow back to my normal pace), but if I wanted to update more frequently (beyond what I'm currently capable of if pushed) it would require skipping steps entirely. I recently had a one-step-forward, one-step-back thing- the painting is sooooo much faster than trying to add decent looking backgrounds in digitally, BUT the speed I gained there is cancelled out by changes I've made during the sketching process.
The nice thing is that eventually I will get faster at the sketching thing, so hopefully it will be a net gain. But will I then become more adept with the paint and start using more of it, balancing the equilibrium again??? YOHHO

That's pretty much what I'm doing, for me quality is more important than uploading more pages a week. Especially since I want to actually print the comic in the future, it has to look good. :3

THIS ISN'T EVEN YOUR FINAL FORM

[K-Dawg]

I'm hoping I'll have a strip done today but I'm having a hell of a time balancing schedule with quality. Finished flats on Monday's comic but realized I needed more backgrounds. Dunno if I'm going to be able to keep a schedule going at all, maybe I should just hit once a week and try for awesome pages, but the pace of the story will crawl to a halt that way.

As always do what you feel is best for you, us the fans will understand. Only difference now is you'll only hear the complaining from your friends who you can tell to go suck a lemon and not those weird fans that seem to come out of the deepest darkest areas of the internet to torment us all.

I could also say maybe take a break in between chapters and do what Komi does by taking guest art or doing whatever and give yourself a chance to build up a buffer.

[McDuffies]

For sure. As you're aware, American print comics are superheroes, superheroes, superheroes, more superheroes, and occasionally some indie stuff here and there if you look for it. Webcomics provide an alternative to that.

There's less strictly speaking superhero comics than it appears, I think. That's because the remaining part of mainstream is filled with action comics which act very similar if not identical to superhero comics. Even though they're nominally spy comics, crime comics, sf, horror, or even dramas, they're all about huge musculatures, big showdowns, clever quips exchanged inbetween punches...
I'm glad that there's much, much more indie comics, today it's reasonable to assume that there's always at least a few great comics ongoing, whereas in eighties, I imagine, if brothers Hernandez haven't published anything, then likely there wasn't anything good at all.

That's actually a really good point I hadn't thought about. While readers might be able to relate to an "Average Joe," being unbiased enough to be a good reviewer isn't a quality an "Average Joe" has. Even if El Santo dislikes high-brow fiction in general, it doesn't mean there can't be exceptions, which is something he doesn't really consider. Another problem is that he suggests that since he doesn't like Ulysses the novel, he can't like Ulysses the graphic novel, which isn't automatically true. In that sense, he misses the mark by focusing on the novel, which he didn't read, while neglecting to thoroughly cover the webcomic, which he did read.

Well I think maybe his major mistake was that he assumed he knows what the book was like based on the comic.
Regardless of him, I guess I'm expecting a lot from critics I really appreciate. I want them to be smarter and more knowledgeable than I am. Like how David A. Cook's History of Narrative Film changed my outlook on many subjects - for instance, that's the book that convinced me to like Hitchcock. He simply shed a different lite on it than the prosaic ones I used to see, and this lite was actually convincing, connected with me. Then there's Rudolph Arnheim who isn't a critic in strict sense of the world, but you know when he's analyzing a painting, he's gonna dig deep into why people see something in that painting, what is it that is appealing to them on subconscious level. And then there's how I catch myself quoting Pauline Kael because sometimes she's so good at hitting the nail on the head.
I guess there's appeal in reading someone you generally agree with and seeing your opinions validated by someone who (hopefully) can articulate them into writing. Also I would totally read such online critic for reccomendations, god knows it's not always easy to dig out a good webcomic. The ones that I appreciate the most, though, are the ones that I feel I can learn from.

[RobboAKAscooby]

Not really comic related.
I'm working hard on my Flying Tigers character redesigns, I am also taking my time with it as I want to do it properly with a guide of expressions and such as opposed to just a basic character turnaround as I've done in the past.
And if I pull my finger out and get this pile of art coloured this week I'll be able to start uploading the story - plan is to upload a chapter a week on Sundays, three to four pics per chapter. Since I'm taking my time with the redesign the first few chapters will still be in the old/current style.

Kind of comic related.
I was looking through some old art before work last night and found a bunch of stuff from the Sh!t Happens days and damn do I miss those characters, sure the comics were crap but I liked the cast. Very tempted to do something with them but since my time is already taxed enough I won't let myself until I can answer yes to these questions:
* Can I avoid common webcomic cliches unlike the old versions?
* Can I avoid using character archetypes prominent in my other works?
* Can I come up with a compelling/entertaining story?
* Can I make the characters worthwhile?
* Can I maintain an update schedule of at least once a week?
For the time being there's too many no's in my answers but gosh do I miss webcomics (I blame the W.A.Y. for this).

[VeryCuddlyCornpone]

I liked your Shit Happens cast, too. I think that was considerably the strongest part of that comic.

[McDuffies]

#rambling mode#
Dunno my comics always start from the plot. If I try to put existing characters into some kinda plot that usually comes all forced, though others are better than that. But I think that if you wanna revive characters, first thing you have to do is come up with a good reason from the standpoint of reader - that means you have to come up with something that happens to those characters that is sufficiently interesting.

The other thing is, theoretically, I think, you can make rounded characters from archetypes... archetypes, well some of them, are simplifications of kinds of people that exist in real life, but you gotta go to depth, see what differentiates this particular example from others, what does he like, how does he act in various situations, what is it like talking to him... don't make him too consistent to character, don't make all of his likes/dislikes the first thing that comes up to your mind when you think of that archetypes, but then still leave enough recognizable. Cause everyone's some archetypes, but then also noone really is one because if you get to know them at least a bit.

The story is where I'd try to keep away from cliches. It's said that you can't come up with a completely new story, but I sure don't like to read variations of standard storylines that I've seen in dozen of movies and cliches. I detest stories for which I know how they'll play out and where I can guess most of plot points far ahead. I guess it's hard to say how much variation it takes for a story to really be considered original, but I guess it simply has to have something that I haven't seen before. The reason I read or watch most of things is to see something I haven't seen before.
Like, um, I dunno, your comic didn't get too far ahead, but supposedly it was a finished comic and it played out in a similar way how those teenage summer romance movies play out. I wouldn't care much that the setting is essentially sf and that they're surfers and all, it'd be a local colour, but it wouldn't make up for unoriginal story. But if, say, surfing played an important role in the plot in such way that it wouldn't be possible to rewrite it to have, say, traditional surfers or skaters instead - then you could say you had something there. Like, you've invented a sport, and you integrated it into a story in such way that you can't just add wheels on them and replace an important match scene with an important race scene, and end up with one of those 80' skater movies.
The other important thing would be to avoid well-worn out beats of those stories. Like if you have a romance, you avoid that part where lovers have a falling out because of a misunderstanding, or that part where they hate each other, then he saves her from danger so she sees his good side (cause you sure as hell won't write that better than George Bernard Shaw did) and so on and so on.

One thing that is particularly good advice for webcomics, I think, is to think long term but to also think short term. Many people are drawn to writing long-winding, overarching stories, but then that often seems like something that, from reader's perspective, doesn't get anywhere, or doesn't get anywhere fast enough. The idea of interweaving plots which all develop in different paces, so that you hold reader's attention with shorter plots while slowly developing the overarching one, that is the idea that seems particularly suitable to webcomics, specially to those who want to develop these big stories.