So, KeenSPACE is getting a name change on Monday.

[Komiyan]

There would be elves. It would be unpleasent.

[RemusShepherd]

Keenspace has grown so much we can't fit under the Keenspot umbrella anymore.

I think this is the root of the problem.

'Space has many more comics than 'Spot does. And every 'Spacer is doing their own advertising, trying to get people to view their comic. This grassroots advertising has turned out to be more effective than the official advertising Keen does for the 'Spotters. We're more visible. Yes, they have individual comics that are more popular than anything on Space, but our effort to get out the word has been more effective and more widespread than any advertising for Spot. I can't remember the last time I saw an ad for a Spot comic outside of Space or Spot itself. But I stumble across ads for Space comics all the time.

Keen could have used this grassroot momentum to its advantage. They could have shifted to advertising Space strips outside of Keen, then heavily advertise Spot within Keen. Use Space to get the customers into the tent, then use Spot to dazzle them and make them come back.

But they chose not to use this dichotomy. ('KeenDichotomy'...I like it! Much better than 'KeenBiPolar'.) And if they're not going to use Spacers as a grassroots advertising horde, then they *have* to separate Space and Spot so that their ads for Spot can get the public's attention.

I don't blame anyone for this. I don't have any opinion on whether it is or is not the right decision, or whether they should have done things differently. I feel this is a tide I can ride out, and it'll settle eventually. But I'm new. I can understand someone who has been here awhile being a little bitter about how their potential as a Spacer has been wasted.

[Phalanx]

I blame Jackhass for this one:

[Ghastly]

Well try and look it from the other point of view, Ghastly. You're going independent soon. If some schiznit decided that this constituted as a betrayal and started accusing you of trying to disassociate yourself from the rest of the Keenspace because "we're not good enough for you" I highly doubt you'd let that stop you from doing what was good for the development of your comic.

Ghastly's Ghastly Comic will be leaving Keenspace but I did have two and even possibly three new projects in the work that I was planning to keep here on Keenspace.

Similarly, if changing the name of Keenspace benefits us, it's silly to let the opnions of a few people who don't really care influence the matter.

Because when those few people influence policy for those of us on Space it matters.

Keenspace has grown so much we can't fit under the Keenspot umbrella anymore. We need our own identity, and one that doesn't smack of "a spin-off of Keenspot".

What umbrella. I see no umbrella here. I saw family. Somewhat disfunctional family at times but family none the less. Now we're being given the boot. Now we're being marginalized.

And as much as I hate to say it, Keenspot are still the ones paying for the server, and if they stop doing that, we fold, there is no Keenspace.

The millions of adviews served from Space should more than pay for its server. I resent the insinuation that Space artists are reliant upon the charity of Spot and thus should cowtow to their gracious whims. We're not charity cases here. We pay the bills and unlike those on Spot we don't get a piece of the action. Well... you guys don't. I'm a unique entity now, not really Keenspace, definetly not Keenspot, but I still feel an affinity towards the Space community .

the in end it is the company's right to do what they want with their company

Yes but there are negative consequences to a company acting in ways that tear itself apart. There are negative consequences when one faction of a company marginalizes another. Just because a company may have the right to make do whatever its whims move it to do, that doesn't neccessarily mean it's wise to do so.

I know you mean well, Ghastly, but please at least be fair and stop twisting the facts.

Look I'm not going to get too deep into the "douchebaggery" of Keenspot. But you know that this is not something I speak of without facts to back it up. Spot artists have been saying the douchebaggery is only a fringe and not reflective of Spot as a whole. They've been saying Spot has been making strides to improve itself in this reguard but when it still comes down to it, Spot says "jump" and Spacers are supposed to wag their tails and say "how high" on the way up. There's still the "we're better than you" attitude and I can't help but feel it motivates the decision making process for Space.

[Jops]

Listen to Ghastly voice!

*ponders what a tentacle porn in Komi's interpretation would look like*

I just got an idea from this post...
i think i'll soon add a new piece to the Space-Jam

[Komiyan]

Listen to Ghastly voice!

*ponders what a tentacle porn in Komi's interpretation would look like*

I just got an idea from this post...
i think i'll soon add a new piece to the Space-Jam

I have fear.

[Kris X]

The thing is, and I think I hit on Ghastly's point, is how many Spotters aren't even bothering to come to the Spacer forum and offer help with their found knowledge? Honestly, I haven't heard from a single Spotter, except Sortelli. The way I see it, Keens should keep together and help the community, but since Spot has been on their high horse, they don't realize they have other siblings. Now they want separate from us, isn't that like disowning your sibling? "I like you, well...Not really...So get off my last name!"

Personally, I look forward for a new name and chance to develope from there. However, I dread all the stuff we've done being lost because we're no longer Keenspace. That and the HTMLing.

[Phalanx]

Well try and look it from the other point of view, Ghastly. You're going independent soon. If some schiznit decided that this constituted as a betrayal and started accusing you of trying to disassociate yourself from the rest of the Keenspace because "we're not good enough for you" I highly doubt you'd let that stop you from doing what was good for the development of your comic.

Ghastly's Ghastly Comic will be leaving Keenspace but I did have two and even possibly three new projects in the work that I was planning to keep here on Keenspace.

No no no. That wasn't my point. What I meant is, would you do what was best for the project you cared for, even if some other people didn't approve of it?

Actually, come to think of it, that's not a very good comparison. I think I should have said: Would you do what was best for the project you care for, even if some people who didn't like you happened to approve of it and wanted you to do it?

Because when those few people influence policy for those of us on Space it matters.

Ok, I'm intrigued. Why does it matter? Some of those few people who influenced policy were people from Space as well.

What umbrella. I see no umbrella here. I saw family. Somewhat disfunctional family at times but family none the less. Now we're being given the boot. Now we're being marginalized.

Actually... If we had been given the boot, we'd have been cut funding and closed down.

We're being renamed, which allows use to finally stop being 'marginalised' because we'd be allowed to use the new name freely, and even promised additional promotion now that they have no fear of being confused (although I'll wait and see if that really happens first).

I don't see how that becomes accross as being marginalized.

And if there is no umbrella, why are we still standing under it?

And as much as I hate to say it, Keenspot are still the ones paying for the server, and if they stop doing that, we fold, there is no Keenspace.

The millions of adviews served from Space should more than pay for its server. I resent the insinuation that Space artists are reliant upon the charity of Spot and thus should cowtow to their gracious whims. We're not charity cases here. We pay the bills and unlike those on Spot we don't get a piece of the action. Well... you guys don't. I'm a unique entity now, not really Keenspace, definetly not Keenspot, but I still feel an affinity towards the Space community .

So am I. But I'm still here.

As for the millions of adviews, if it were that easy there would be dozens of Keenspace competitors out there. There's still a contract to negotiate with Burstnet. (Although with the advent of Google Ads, it might be easier now). You have to invest the <b>Capital</b> of running the service, which if I recall correctly from a post by faub, is no trivial sum. You have to have admins to upkeep and run the thing (and we are very very very lucky to have Kisai and Kelly). Should the server melt you have to pay for the cost of a new one.

Last of all, remember the TOS everyone on Keenspace agreed to when we signed up? The deal might have been different in the past, but now I'm pretty sure it is "unlmited space, unlimited bandwidth in exchange for an ad banner". Nothing about 'getting a piece of the action'. The same deal and most other free hosts like tripod or geocities or blogspot out there. I see non of their users demand a share of advertising revenue from them.

We all knew what we were getting into when we signed up. And by most standards, it's a pretty good deal.

Besides, If we were to argue by that other logic, the readers of a comic might say: "We're the ones looking at your ads and clicking on them and earning you revenue. We should have a share." Does that make sense?

Yes but there are negative consequences to a company acting in ways that tear itself apart. There are negative consequences when one faction of a company marginalizes another. Just because a company may have the right to make do whatever its whims move it to do, that doesn't neccessarily mean it's wise to do so.

But what ARE the negative consequences of renaming keenspace? So far the only arguments I've heard against it are "it's elitism" and "Keenspot are marginalising us". That's a cause, not a consequence.

As far as I can tell, here are the Pros and Cons. Feel free to add to them.

Pros:
1. No longer confused with Keenspot, gain independent identity
2. Allowed promotion with new name

Cons:
1. Difficulty in changing urls and names.

I know you mean well, Ghastly, but please at least be fair and stop twisting the facts.

Look I'm not going to get too deep into the "douchebaggery" of Keenspot. But you know that this is not something I speak of without facts to back it up. Spot artists have been saying the douchebaggery is only a fringe and not reflective of Spot as a whole. They've been saying Spot has been making strides to improve itself in this reguard but when it still comes down to it, Spot says "jump" and Spacers are supposed to wag their tails and say "how high" on the way up. There's still the "we're better than you" attitude and I can't help but feel it motivates the decision making process for Space.

That's the thing, Ghastly. But you've been saying Keenspot has been going "Spot says "jump" and Spacers are supposed to wag their tails and say "how high" on the way up" but you've yet to back those up with facts. I know you say it's not said without facts to back it up, and fair enough, I'm sure you do have facts to back it up. But please don't be insulted if I'd like to see the facts for myself before I take it seriously.

Also, you still keep ignoring the fact that a number of Spacers were receptive and pushing for the change too (Incidentally, enough to consider petitioning for the name change if they hadn't put it through already).

[Spriteville, USA]

Anyone else happy we're going to be seperated from KeenSpot?

Now we can be judged based on our own merit, we're going to have a fresh start. We have a chance to make a different impression on the internet as a whole, sure the Space stereotype of crappy comics will remain, but consider this a first step in proving ourselves.

In fact it's Spot that is going to keep the bad part of the impression. But Space now has the unique chance to start showing ourselves off more effectively.

We can showcase our best and brightest and prove to the internet that we have quality, we have talent, we have comics worth seeing. Being hosted on Keenspace could (for some close minded people) be seen as a reason to not bother. Our new name will give a chance to chance to change the perceptrion from "All those peopel suck" to "A bunch of people there suck, but there are a lot of really really good ones on there too."

I say we take advantage of this chance, do the PR we didn't have the oppourtunity to do.

[Phalanx]

The thing is, and I think I hit on Ghastly's point, is how many Spotters aren't even bothering to come to the Spacer forum and offer help with their found knowledge? Honestly, I haven't heard from a single Spotter, except Sortelli. The way I see it, Keens should keep together and help the community, but since Spot has been on their high horse, they don't realize they have other siblings. Now they want separate from us, isn't that like disowning your sibling? "I like you, well...Not really...So get off my last name!"

Maybe it's just me, but other than a few exceptions, we were never really part of the family anyway. Why do we even want the last name?

Instead of trying to force ourselves upon them, maybe we should be striking out on our own instead.

And yes, the HTMLing is going to be the pain. I wonder if it's possible to do a database-wide find-and-replace with mySQL?

*ponders*

[Melonpool]

But no, a few arrogant Spotters insisted that you change OUR name (when changing Spots name would have been the simplest "solution" that would have affected the fewest people) so they could further distance themselves from the lowly rabble on Space.

Well, speaking as an arrogant almost ex-Spotter, I've been insisting that Keenspot be the one to make its own name change but there was a lot of talk internally about that we'd be leaving you guys with all of our dirty laundry.

Pick up the pieces and grow.

Steve

[Subhuman]

We're being renamed, which allows use to finally stop being 'marginalised' because we'd be allowed to use the new name freely, and even promised additional promotion now that they have no fear of being confused

See, this is why I'm not upset over the namechange. Yes, it's a pain to update your links and fix your HTML, and it'll suck redoing all of those KeenCards and samplers, but having our own identity and not being Keenspot's red-headed cousin from the Ozarks outweighs those temporary headaches, in my opinion. I really don't see what the big deal is.

[Ghastly]

That's the thing, Ghastly. But you've been saying Keenspot has been going "Spot says "jump" and Spacers are supposed to wag their tails and say "how high" on the way up" but you've yet to back those up with facts. I know you say it's not said without facts to back it up, and fair enough, I'm sure you do have facts to back it up. But please don't be insulted if I'd like to see the facts for myself before I take it seriously.

Yeah, and we all saw how well that worked last time I posted the facts to back up my argument.

There's enough in the open on the Spot forums that you don't have look too far to see a lack of respect for the people on Space as artists.

In anycase, all I'm saying is sure, maybe the most confortable seats are back there, but that doesn't mean I have to like someone saying "get your ass to the back of the bus".

And unless Keen is being horribly mismanaged there's no way Space couldn't be turning a profit considering it's bulk bandwidth prices. People have gone indie from Space too, used Burst, payed for more expensive bandwidth (because they don't enjoy the benefit of buying it in bulk) and still turned profit, I seriously doubt Space is the charity case so many people make it out to be. I do not believe that is justification to deny Spacers the respect they've earned as artiststs and peers. Space has done just as much for Keen as Spot has, more in many ways too. Spotters get everything Spacers get and then some. Nobody dismisses them as charity cases so saying Spacers should shut up and accept their lot graciously doesn't cut it with me.

[Ghastly]

We're being renamed, which allows use to finally stop being 'marginalised' because we'd be allowed to use the new name freely, and even promised additional promotion now that they have no fear of being confused

See, this is why I'm not upset over the namechange.

Where are people getting this "we'll be allowed to use the new name freely" stuff from. I seem to recall Chris Crosby saying that even if (as the issue was still and "if" back then) the name changed Spacers would still not be allowed to use it in the promotion of their comics and Keen would still control all its use just as it does with Keenspace.

[Sam_Charette]

Where are people getting this "we'll be allowed to use the new name freely" stuff from. I seem to recall Chris Crosby saying that even if (as the issue was still and "if" back then) the name changed Spacers would still not be allowed to use it in the promotion of their comics and Keen would still control all its use just as it does with Keenspace.

It was my understanding from a previous discussion on brand name promotion that the only reason why we couldn't promote ourselves was because of the potential for brand confusion. Changing the name solves that, and then we would be able to grow as an entity ourselves, promoting ourselves, having our own booths, etc.

If this is not the case, I'm 100% behind Ghastly.

If it IS the case, however, I'm thrilled about it! No more do you have to tweak your samplers so that no one knows who you are. Now you can do that, you can have your own booths, etc. Who cares WHY it's being done, take advantage of it!

Ultimately we won't know which it is until the name has changed, and we try to promote ourselves, but if it works out, then I think that this is, without a doubt, a very good thing to happen.

Slave: "Man, it sucks being a slave."
Owner: "Get the hell out of here, you're free."
Slave: "But why?"
Owner: "I don't like you any more. I'll still make sure you get fed, and have a house, but I'm better than you, so don't want you near me any more."
Slave: "Well that's no good! I don't want to live on my own and be my own person!"

Yeah, doesn't that sound silly? Even if it's because they don't like us, it's still a great opportunity. Look to the positive, and use the opportunity to prove to the world just how good you can be.

Ultimately, if you want to get away from someone else telling you what to do, start your own server. Until then, you're going to have to deal with things like this.

[Ghastly]

I'd say it's more of a segregationist thing than a master/slave thing.

It's more a matter of "get out of our school" and a few spacers going "yeah, we should get out of their school" than slaves rebelling for freedom.

You have to realize that the reason I argue this so passionately is because I really want great things for Keen and I think our chances are much improved if both parts of Keen work together than it is if we divide. I'd like to see the walls between Spot and Space torn down and have us become a stronger whole than I would see it set into camps of Us vs Them.

What has always pissed me off is seeing so much potential wasted because egos on Spot don't want any resources spent on Space. They want Space kept small, weak, and unthreatening. That's not going to change with the name change. You're not going to suddenly see Keen turn around and start working Space like it does Spot. All that's going to happen is Spotters won't have to worry about a weak and sullied Space looking bad for them because we won't be part of their family anymore.

[Sam_Charette]

You're quite right, Ghastly, a name change won't affect how many spotters see space, but that's really nothing we can do anything about.

The problem is that we're sort of winning a battle here, and you're concentrating on a different battle that no one's really fighting. For a while now people have wanted to promote space, but were not allowed to because of these individuals.

Now, though, that we are removing the reason why they were pissy there's a chance that we can promote space as much as we like. Given that as the case, we've won a great victory, even if it means that we have to change the name, because ultimately we can build an identity.

If our options are:

1) Stay spot's little sibling who has to be brought along to the party, but who's always treated like shit and is never allowed to talk to spot's friends or
2) Grow up, go to parties without spot and get friends of our own

Well I'll take choice number 2, thanks! There will always be pissy little spotters who can't take the success of space, and they're going to work hard at keeping is from being part of the keen family. That's a bigger issue that should be dealt with for sure, but since it's not we at least have a solution to a part of the problem, and will now be able to talk to people about us.

Sometimes you have to learn to pick your battles.

(of course, once again, if we're still not allowed to do that then all of that is void and I join the Ghastly army )

[MariaAndMichelle]

Our two cents:
A new name doesn't mean a new start. It's not like they're putting us in the Witness Protection Program or anything... people will still know we used to be KeenSpace. So now instead of "Oh, yeah, that's a KeenSpace comic. KeenSpace comics suck" it'll be "Oh, yeah, that's a <so-and-so> comic. They used to be KeenSpace. KeenSpace comics suck."

[Phalanx]

That's the thing, Ghastly. But you've been saying Keenspot has been going "Spot says "jump" and Spacers are supposed to wag their tails and say "how high" on the way up" but you've yet to back those up with facts. I know you say it's not said without facts to back it up, and fair enough, I'm sure you do have facts to back it up. But please don't be insulted if I'd like to see the facts for myself before I take it seriously.

Yeah, and we all saw how well that worked last time I posted the facts to back up my argument.

If I'm not mistaken, you're referring to the "Customers" comment, right?

To be honest, to this day, I still don't see how Gav saying:

"The difference, of course, is that Keenspacers are customers and Keenspotters are employees. "

is a convincing 'fact' backing the arguement:

"Space artists are openly insulted and slighted not only by Spot artists but by the execs themselves and they feel justified in doing so because as Spacers we are inherently inferior to the Spotters."

There's enough in the open on the Spot forums that you don't have look too far to see a lack of respect for the people on Space as artists.

That's because most of what they see is the bad stuff, and we weren't allowed to promote the good stuff under the name of Space. Is it any wonder?

I'd say it's more of a segregationist thing than a master/slave thing.

It's more a matter of "get out of our school" and a few spacers going "yeah, we should get out of their school" than slaves rebelling for freedom.

Acutally, it's those few spacers saying "Let get out of their school and form our own school".

You have to realize that the reason I argue this so passionately is because I really want great things for Keen and I think our chances are much improved if both parts of Keen work together than it is if we divide. I'd like to see the walls between Spot and Space torn down and have us become a stronger whole than I would see it set into camps of Us vs Them.

I think it's obvious you were well-intentioned. And that is a very sweet dream you have, Ghastly. And once upon a time, it might have been possible.

But as long as they don't want us (which they don't) you and I will both know it will never come true. Forcing ourselves upon them will not make them like us any better, and yelling at them to change isn't going to do anything except enforce the negative impressions they have of us. You can't make other people change their minds by screaming at them to change.

The second best thing, and the only realistic thing we can do now, is disassociate and make it on our own. It's wasted potential, maybe, but far better getting over it and getting your own cow instead of sitting around crying over spilled milk.

That's not going to change with the name change. You're not going to suddenly see Keen turn around and start working Space like it does Spot.

Dude, we know that. For the last 2-3 years we've been working on organising Keen. Faub and the sampler. The newsletter. The various activities and meetups. Not to mention the all the work Kisai and Kelly have been doing like the Guide and Newsbox.

The thing is, Keenspace has a far bigger community and volunteer base than Keenspot. Instead of waiting around for Spot to do something, we've shown we can do it ourselves, and we can do it far better because we as users know what we need.

It's come to the stage we no longer need Keenspot to 'work on us'. What we really need is freedom to work for ourselves. The name was one of the restrictions that kept us down. That was the main reason I supported the changing of it.

A new name isn't a 100% new start. But for starters, it's going to allow us to promote ourself under a brand. The *Space Sampler can be called the *Space Sampler instead of Deadly Bears.

That alone is a good enough reason for me.

(of course, once again, if we're still not allowed to do that then all of that is void and I join the Ghastly army )

Heck, if that happens, I'm coming with you too, Sam.

[Ghastly]

If I'm not mistaken, you're referring to the "Customers" comment, right?

No I'm refering to the last time I went public with the inside information fed to me by some Spotters. The incident that made the customers incident seem small.