What was it like

[LibertyCabbage]

You have to remember, tho, if you're the kid constantly getting "F"s and "D"s, that "C" starts looking pretty darned good to you after a while, and you start to admire the kids who can get it.

I understand why you feel that way, but I personally don't celebrate mediocrity. However, that isn't the same as hating everyone's webcomics, as you implied in your post even after admitting in the past that you had a false impression of my reviews as being overly negative. It also seems a little hostile when you criticize my reviews in a thread that doesn't really have anything to do with me or reviewing aside from Nanda mentioning that someone mentioned me.

and as long as I'm more focused on trying to improve the quality of my production rather than kill myself over quantity,

You're being overdramatic. Updating a black-and-white gag comic once a month wouldn't be "killing [yourself] over quantity."

Wouldn't pumping out more crap just make a bigger mess?

No, because the No. 1 way to get better at something is to do it a lot.

Even if I had the wherewithall to boost production, I'd want to have a marketable product first as you wrote in your review.

I feel like you have it backwards. First you need to establish a conducive environment where your potential product can thrive. This means having a positive mindset, conditioning yourself to update frequently and consistently, and having a clear sense of your goals and expectations.

Heheheheh...

Why are you laughing? I didn't intend my comment to be funny.

Although you did say that you wouldn't have bothered to review my comic unless I personally asked you...

Because it didn't seem at the time that you were taking your project seriously.

However, since I do in fact get so little feedback from people

That's just part of being a webcartoonist. Even people who really like a webcomic generally won't say anything about it.

Additionally, in response to my doubt about improvement since that bad review, instead of saying something like, "Not at all! You've improved the comic's layout considerably since then, and I can see a marked improvement in your character's personalities," you hone in again on my lack of updates. On this side of the monitor, what WASN'T said was infinitely louder than what WAS said.

Because comparing the number of updates is objective, fact-based criticism. I don't have any interest in critiquing Critters subjectively. Why would I? It's been almost a year since I reviewed Critters; it's not exactly a "hot topic" for me.

And so, my dear LibbertyCabbage, it may sound like an abnormal change from wanting to do Critters professionally to not caring about it over a bad review, but I assure you, sir - there was way more going on on this side of the monitor than you think.

I hope you've really achieved as much inner peace as you say you have.

Indeed, bad publicity is still publicity. At the very least, there weren't any haters leaving comments after your Webcomic Police review.

I'd hope that people aren't harassing anyone after reading my reviews. It's definitely not my intention.

[peterabnny]

I understand why you feel that way, but I personally don't celebrate mediocrity. However, that isn't the same as hating everyone's webcomics, as you implied in your post even after admitting in the past that you had a false impression of my reviews as being overly negative. It also seems a little hostile when you criticize my reviews in a thread that doesn't really have anything to do with me or reviewing aside from Nanda mentioning that someone mentioned me.

Ah, I see what's going on here...

LC, when I first posted that thing about creating comics that you tear to shreds I did so with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek. I singled out you because A) as far as I know, you are the only one around here who does comic reviews to the prolific extent that you do, and B) because of your infamous review of my comic. In a lot of peoples' minds, I'd argue, you're probaby more known for your reviews than you are your comic. I mean, I don't know if your site is one of the primary places on the Internet that creators go to to get their works reviewed, but if not, it should be. But I meant no offense. If I did I apologize - to you and the rest of you CGers. I didn't mean to come across as being hostile.

You're being overdramatic.

Not at all. Free time to do anything these days is hard to come by for me, least of all doing artwork. That's why I can so easily get off my schedule. I literally have to force myself to my drawing table every month otherwise it's easy to get wrapped up in all the other stuff I have going on - even if I have an idea burning in my brain. That's why I said I'm more interested in quality than quantity. Nowadays I'm far more wanting to release a good cartoon that's late than a half-assed job released on time, and I'm not going to stress myself out trying to bring something in on time. As I said, it's not like I really have to impress anyone except me. The handful of fans I do have know this and are willing to wait any delay until the next episode is released.

No, because the No. 1 way to get better at something is to do it a lot.

I agree, but I still don't see how it really resolves a lot of the other things wrong with my project besides simply updating more. After all, I'm been doing it since the early '90s. True, there is an evolution - a very slow evolution - but still, some mechanical things can't be fixed by simply doing more of the same.

I feel like you have it backwards. First you need to establish a conducive environment where your potential product can thrive. This means having a positive mindset, conditioning yourself to update frequently and consistently, and having a clear sense of your goals and expectations.

Heh... Until the last year or so I thought I had that...

Why are you laughing? I didn't intend my comment to be funny.

The irony, dear fellow! These suck-ass creators were waiting and wanting so much for a review, and when they got it... Let's just say it was a case of be careful what you wish for. I'm surprised you didn't see that.

Because it didn't seem at the time that you were taking your project seriously.

How do you know those other creators of bad comics weren't also taking their projects seriously?

That's just part of being a webcartoonist. Even people who really like a webcomic generally won't say anything about it.

That stands in very stark contrast with my experience with FurAffinity.net. In fact, FA was one of the reasons my creative mentality was as screwed up as it was. FA is a place that nourishes the accomplished artist, but poisons the strugling one. If you have good stuff, people will definitely let you know and build you an altar, both in terms of ego and popularity numbers. If not, you languish in a black hole of obscurity and indifference.

I've been told that Deviant Art is a better place for reader feedback than FA is. I have an account; if I could ever get the time, I have plans to see if that's true. If nothing else, it's another outlet for my comics.

I hope you've really achieved as much inner peace as you say you have.

Working on it. I figure if it ever came to pass that I actually would have any kind of following, it'd be via a Toyota Motors approach: build a better comic, and the people will follow.

I'd hope that people aren't harassing anyone after reading my reviews. It's definitely not my intention.

Well, my friend, all I can say is beware the Law of Unintentional Consequences.

[McDuffies]

I'm never eating oranges again.

[LibertyCabbage]

I don't know if your site is one of the primary places on the Internet that creators go to to get their works reviewed, but if not, it should be.

Thank you.

But I meant no offense. If I did I apologize.

O.K. For the future, "just kidding" or a winky smiley are useful for that sort of thing.

Not at all.

If you can get strips done, that's great, and if not, then that's life.

After all, I'm been doing it since the early '90s.

Don't go by years, go by number of strips, because that represents the amount of time you actually spent making comics.

Heh... Until the last year or so I thought I had that...

The main thing is, if you aren't happy with how things are, then do something differently.

The irony, dear fellow! These suck-ass creators were waiting and wanting so much for a review, and when they got it... Let's just say it was a case of be careful what you wish for. I'm surprised you didn't see that.

I wasn't specific. The creators have been fine, it's the random people who jump into the discussion being all, like, "You're hurting that person's self-esteem!" It's, like, well, where were you when the review request was being ignored for months? I guess we should just look the other way and pretend that people who can't draw or write don't exist, and that's supposed to somehow make everyone feel better?

How do you know those other creators of bad comics weren't also taking their projects seriously?

I don't think I ever said that everyone who makes a bad comic isn't taking their project seriously. Some people don't try very hard and fail, and some people do try their best and still fail.

That stands in very stark contrast with my experience with FurAffinity.net. In fact, FA was one of the reasons my creative mentality was as screwed up as it was. FA is a place that nourishes the accomplished artist, but poisons the strugling one. If you have good stuff, people will definitely let you know and build you an altar, both in terms of ego and popularity numbers. If not, you languish in a black hole of obscurity and indifference.

I always felt like it's proportional. Like, if a comic has 10,000 readers and gets 100 comments, and you have 100 readers and get one comment, then it's, like, "Wow, they got 100 comments, readers really love them," when really, it's the same 100:1 ratio of readers to comments. Although, there's probably also a crowd effect, in which people are more likely to comment on stuff if they see other people are commenting on it.

I've been told that Deviant Art is a better place for reader feedback than FA is. I have an account; if I could ever get the time, I have plans to see if that's true. If nothing else, it's another outlet for my comics.

Well, I mean, it only takes, like, a minute to upload a strip and write a little explanation about it. So, there's not really any reason not to mirror your stuff on dA.

I figure if it ever came to pass that I actually would have any kind of following, it'd be via a Toyota Motors approach: build a better comic, and the people will follow.

I dunno, I feel like self-promotion's extremely important for building an audience. Although, of course, self-promotion doesn't do a whole lot without quality to back it up.

Well, my friend, all I can say is beware the Law of Unintentional Consequences.

I'm not responsible for what some chucklehead decides to posts online.

[RobboAKAscooby]

I'm never eating oranges again.

Just oranges or are you boycotting all citrus?

[peterabnny]

Thank you.

Mox nix, mein fruende! I will say, regardless of what I would think of your approach, I can't help but give you props for having the balls to stand by your reviews and stand firm in the face of blistering reaction from recipients of your poor reviews.

O.K. For the future, "just kidding" or a winky smiley are useful for that sort of thing.

Indeed. One of the things that sucks about Internet interactions like this that you're never able to actually see the person you're talking to, so you're never able to pick up their non-verbal cues. Thus the need for emocons. I know I tend to have a very dry sense of humor anyway; this time looks like my delivery was overly parched. Again, all apologies, mate.

If you can get strips done, that's great, and if not, then that's life.

Pretty much my new creative philosophy now.

Don't go by years, go by number of strips, because that represents the amount of time you actually spent making comics.

There is something to that, I think. Which is why the more you do, the better you get. Still, if there's something mechanical wrong that I'm doing, I need to know about it so I'm not just perpetuating it over and over again.

The main thing is, if you aren't happy with how things are, then do something differently.

I hear ya.

I wasn't specific. The creators have been fine, it's the random people who jump into the discussion being all, like, "You're hurting that person's self-esteem!" It's, like, well, where were you when the review request was being ignored for months? I guess we should just look the other way and pretend that people who can't draw or write don't exist, and that's supposed to somehow make everyone feel better?

Ah, I see. Seems like a creator's fans can be far worse than the creator himself/herself. Say something bad about Eric Schwartz's "Sabrina Online" and you'll likely have death threats made to you from his fans.

I always felt like it's proportional. Like, if a comic has 10,000 readers and gets 100 comments, and you have 100 readers and get one comment, then it's, like, "Wow, they got 100 comments, readers really love them," when really, it's the same 100:1 ratio of readers to comments. Although, there's probably also a crowd effect, in which people are more likely to comment on stuff if they see other people are commenting on it.

Agreed. Also, the thing about FA is that there are other ways to judge popularity besides people leaving comments. If someone faves something and adds it to their profile gallery or, even better, sees your stuff and likes it so much that he/she puts a watch on you so they can follow your new releases, I consider that the same as getting positive textual feedback.

I dunno, I feel like self-promotion's extremely important for building an audience. Although, of course, self-promotion doesn't do a whole lot without quality to back it up.

Falling back on my college advertising and marketing classes tells me that it's far more the latter than the former. Back in the days when I had the money to go to furry cons, I'd go to set out promo materials to support my strip and I'd generally be pleased with the way they'd be snatched up by the con-goers. Looking at the traffic numbers when I got home, tho, I determined that any boost I got from the practice either didn't last or was pretty small.

I'm not responsible for what some chucklehead decides to posts online.

Heh... You may not be responsible, but you may have to deal with it nevertheless!

[Terotrous]

No, because the No. 1 way to get better at something is to do it a lot.

Random cherry picking here, but even though this makes a lot of sense I do not believe it is actually accurate. From my own personal experience, whenever I was practicing something routinely (not just art, anything at all), my skill did not increase much at all. Basically all of my improvement came when I neglected some skill for a long time and then came back to it, but now that I think about it it makes some sense.


The way I see it, there's basically three stages to the learning process:

Practice
Absorb
Refine


If you just practice practice practice, you'll tend to fall into a routine where you just keep doing the same thing and don't improve because you're skipping the other two steps. No doubt you can see how this is true for comics - when drawing a comic on a regular basis, the art will tend to quickly coalesce into a consistent style where each comic looks much the same as the previous one. This ensures that the comic can be drawn in a timely manner and keeps readers from getting confused, but it also prevents your skills from advancing much at all. The way to get better is to take a break, digest the information your previous experiences taught you, and then apply the new tricks you've picked up but didn't properly incorporate because you were too set in your ways.


Of course, you may think that I'm full of crap. It's possible that this is only true for me and that other people don't work this way. But from my own experience this has proven true time and time again (and I think this will be particularly evident when I release my secret project later this year).

[RobboAKAscooby]

No, because the No. 1 way to get better at something is to do it a lot.

Random cherry picking here, but even though this makes a lot of sense I do not believe it is actually accurate. From my own personal experience, whenever I was practicing something routinely (not just art, anything at all), my skill did not increase much at all. Basically all of my improvement came when I neglected some skill for a long time and then came back to it, but now that I think about it it makes some sense.


The way I see it, there's basically three stages to the learning process:

Practice
Absorb
Refine


If you just practice practice practice, you'll tend to fall into a routine where you just keep doing the same thing and don't improve because you're skipping the other two steps. No doubt you can see how this is true for comics - when drawing a comic on a regular basis, the art will tend to quickly coalesce into a consistent style where each comic looks much the same as the previous one. This ensures that the comic can be drawn in a timely manner and keeps readers from getting confused, but it also prevents your skills from advancing much at all. The way to get better is to take a break, digest the information your previous experiences taught you, and then apply the new tricks you've picked up but didn't properly incorporate because you were too set in your ways.


Of course, you may think that I'm full of crap. It's possible that this is only true for me and that other people don't work this way. But from my own experience this has proven true time and time again (and I think this will be particularly evident when I release my secret project later this year).

I think there's at least some sense in what you say, it's very easy to plateau when you get into that rhythm of turning out pages.

[VeryCuddlyCornpone]

Yeah Tero, I think there's something to that. I've found bizarrely that sometimes if I haven't been able to work on my comic for a while, I'll return to it and find I've "leveled up" as it were during the downtime. Kinda like when you're liftin weights and you gotta give your muscles a day off to rebuild and actually make themselves stronger.

[IVstudios]

Well, you need to take breaks from everything once in a while or you'll burn out. But there's a big difference between taking a break every now and then and saying "I'm not going to draw a lot until I get better at drawing." You get better at drawing by drawing, not by sitting around thinking about drawing.

[LibertyCabbage]

I can't help but give you props for having the balls to stand by your reviews and stand firm in the face of blistering reaction from recipients of your poor reviews.

Thanks.

Indeed. One of the things that sucks about Internet interactions like this that you're never able to actually see the person you're talking to, so you're never able to pick up their non-verbal cues. Thus the need for emocons. I know I tend to have a very dry sense of humor anyway; this time looks like my delivery was overly parched. Again, all apologies, mate.

It's alright.

Pretty much my new creative philosophy now.

Yeah, I mean, everyone here's had problems updating their comic/s.

Still, if there's something mechanical wrong that I'm doing, I need to know about it so I'm not just perpetuating it over and over again.

Right, and like I'll address in my response to Terotrous' post below, practice is important but it isn't the only part of improvement.

Say something bad about Eric Schwartz's "Sabrina Online" and you'll likely have death threats made to you from his fans.

I've heard a little about Sabrina Online. It might be interesting to review it sometime and see what happens. Although, I think I'd like to review TwoKinds first.

If someone faves something and adds it to their profile gallery or, even better, sees your stuff and likes it so much that he/she puts a watch on you so they can follow your new releases, I consider that the same as getting positive textual feedback.

Definitely, and you really just have to cherish any kind of positive response you get.

Falling back on my college advertising and marketing classes tells me that it's far more the latter than the former.

I agree that quality's No. 1.

Heh... You may not be responsible, but you may have to deal with it nevertheless!

I still don't really get why you're bringing this subject up. Are you referring to something specific that happened?

Random cherry picking here...

I both agree and disagree. You're right that "practice practice practice" won't make you a great cartoonist by itself, but that's not what I meant. What I meant's that it's the most important part of a learning process that includes, for example, peer-review and reading as other important parts. Sorry if I wasn't more clear about that.

As for "taking a break," I'm gonna subvert that into "taking a break from what you normally do." If you normally draw cartoony, try drawing realistically. If you only draw people, try drawing animals. If you normally color digitally, try doing it traditionally. If you normally write action stories, try writing a romance story. If you normally draw comics, try writing prose or poetry. Yes, "taking a break" can help you get a fresh perspective, and it may work for some of you, but I don't think it's good advice in general. I'd hate to think of some struggling newbie lurker reading that, putting away his art supplies and logging into World of Warcraft because he read that it's the way to get better at making comics. "Taking a break" sounds a hell of a lot easier than "practice a lot," and "easy" solutions tend to be way more appealing to people than they should be.

I think there's at least some sense in what you say, it's very easy to plateau when you get into that rhythm of turning out pages.

Absolutely, and that's where discipline comes in, where you need to tell yourself, "I'm too comfortable with what I'm doing. I need to be challenging myself more." Your back-up plan's to get that push from your peers via formal or informal critiques. Stagnation only really happens when you aren't pushing yourself and aren't taking what other people think into consideration.

Yeah Tero, I think there's something to that. I've found bizarrely that sometimes if I haven't been able to work on my comic for a while, I'll return to it and find I've "leveled up" as it were during the downtime. Kinda like when you're liftin weights and you gotta give your muscles a day off to rebuild and actually make themselves stronger.

And that's the dreaded burn-out part of making comics, where doing it too much can be a bad thing. Although, ideally, taking breaks should be offset by some amount of buffer, or be during a transitory part of the comic, like in-between chapters.

Well, you need to take breaks from everything once in a while or you'll burn out. But there's a big difference between taking a break every now and then and saying "I'm not going to draw a lot until I get better at drawing." You get better at drawing by drawing, not by sitting around thinking about drawing.

I agree with this attitude the most. As Ben Fleuter (of Derelict) bluntly puts it, "just fucking do it."

[peterabnny]

I still don't really get why you're bringing this subject up. Are you referring to something specific that happened?

No, no... Just thinking in general. I live such a yin-yang, cause and effect life anyway, and always remind myself that actions have consequences. I think we've all found out at one time or other that we may think something we're doing doesn't matter or won't have repercussions, only to later discover that it did...BIG time, and now have to pay the price. I try to think ahead to avoid being in those situations.

[LibertyCabbage]

No, no... Just thinking in general. I live such a yin-yang, cause and effect life anyway, and always remind myself that actions have consequences. I think we've all found out at one time or other that we may think something we're doing doesn't matter or won't have repercussions, only to later discover that it did...BIG time, and now have to pay the price. I try to think ahead to avoid being in those situations.

Can you elaborate more? How would posting my reviews have "repercussions [...] BIG time"? What "price" could I have to "pay" for posting my opinions online? What "situations" should I be trying to "avoid"?

[peterabnny]

Can you elaborate more? How would posting my reviews have "repercussions [...] BIG time"? What "price" could I have to "pay" for posting my opinions online? What "situations" should I be trying to "avoid"?

Relax, LC - you're being oversensitive! Again - I said "in general," not you specifically. You needn't personalize that last comment; I intended that to be a general comment for everyone, much more than to you or your reviews. Another way of looking at it, the First Amendment guarantees you (again, "you" as in the general population, not you, LC, specifically) the right to say what you want. It doesn't guarantee you the right to be free from the consequences of your speech. Some people - not you, specifically, LC - can have a blog (a general one) and trash someone to great abandon. And then they wonder why nobody likes them or wants to settle the score as a result. Others don't care. Where you fall into the mix, only you can definitively say. Me, personally, I just try not to spend my life being an asshole. Does that help?

Sheesh, I feel like we're in that "What, you think I'm funny?!" scene from Goodfellas...

[LibertyCabbage]

O.K. I just felt like you were being really, really vague, and instead of me guessing what you're talking about or just ignoring you, I thought I'd ask you to explain what you mean.

[peterabnny]

O.K. I just felt like you were being really, really vague, and instead of me guessing what you're talking about or just ignoring you, I thought I'd ask you to explain what you mean.

No worries, mate! Everybody likes to be understood.

[VeryCuddlyCornpone]

Everybody!!

[McDuffies]

Yeah Tero, I think there's something to that. I've found bizarrely that sometimes if I haven't been able to work on my comic for a while, I'll return to it and find I've "leveled up" as it were during the downtime. Kinda like when you're liftin weights and you gotta give your muscles a day off to rebuild and actually make themselves stronger.

I had such experience for many things, but not for drawing. With drawing, I always find I need time to bet back into shape after long hiatus.
I think that drawing a lot helps in steadying your hand and giving you self-confidence, which reflects in your inking. But if you want to progress on other necessary fields, you have to couple that with studying (anatomy and such), constantly going out of your comfort zone, live models drawing if possible... It would be silly to expect to learn anything without actually putting active, systematic effort in learning, but drawing a lot certainly helps. If you draw talking heads comic, you'll get really good at drawing talking heads. You certainly won't learn to draw legs. You probably won't learn to draw shoulders, for that matter. It's implied that when you're drawing an actual comic, you're running into challenges that you handle along the way, and you're getting the exact kind of skill that's necessary for drawing comics. It's not so if your comic always features the same few kind of images, as is often the case.
If you're a musician and you only practice one song for several years, you'll know that one piece really good. You won't be somehow able to play other songs. It doesn't mean that you won't learn to play those other songs quicker and better than you would have if you hadn't been practicing at all.

[VeryCuddlyCornpone]

Yeah Tero, I think there's something to that. I've found bizarrely that sometimes if I haven't been able to work on my comic for a while, I'll return to it and find I've "leveled up" as it were during the downtime. Kinda like when you're liftin weights and you gotta give your muscles a day off to rebuild and actually make themselves stronger.

I had such experience for many things, but not for drawing. With drawing, I always find I need time to bet back into shape after long hiatus.
I think that drawing a lot helps in steadying your hand and giving you self-confidence, which reflects in your inking. But if you want to progress on other necessary fields, you have to couple that with studying (anatomy and such), constantly going out of your comfort zone, live models drawing if possible... It would be silly to expect to learn anything without actually putting active, systematic effort in learning, but drawing a lot certainly helps. If you draw talking heads comic, you'll get really good at drawing talking heads. You certainly won't learn to draw legs. You probably won't learn to draw shoulders, for that matter. It's implied that when you're drawing an actual comic, you're running into challenges that you handle along the way, and you're getting the exact kind of skill that's necessary for drawing comics. It's not so if your comic always features the same few kind of images, as is often the case.
If you're a musician and you only practice one song for several years, you'll know that one piece really good. You won't be somehow able to play other songs. It doesn't mean that you won't learn to play those other songs quicker and better than you would have if you hadn't been practicing at all.

That makes sense, and I don't recommend people just stop drawing for long periods of time if they have areas they want to improve on technically. I just mean that for me it's like "you never forget how to ride a bike"- I just pick up the pencil and it's like I just drew yesterday, except it's been so long since I last drew that I'm really galvanized and able to do things i wasn't able to before. There's like a minute or two of trying to find my balance again but then I just go flying off.

Usually if I stop working on my comic for an unintended period of hiatus it's because my brain has ceased being able to see, parse, and restructure the way I want my pages to look. It's like the river that carries the pages through those three sectors of creation is backed up and I need to give it some time to find a new path. It's kind of almost a spiritual thing for me, as fruity as hell as that sounds. It would surely be different if I hadn't drawn for a year or even like three months, but it's usually just a few weeks, maybe a month and a half in between working.

[McDuffies]

I have that approach with writing, when I leave an unfinished script laying for a while, after that I tend to come up with ideas I was missing... perspective helps because when you're working on a thing, you tend to be stuck with a certain direction and can't think wide enough to look at others... it's similar to how you can get stuck with a math problem, always looking at one place, but further thinking only gets you back to that same place, so you need to step back, give it a rest, separate yourself from the problem for a while. Similarly sometimes you need to let some knowledge settle down in order to use it better. It's just that for me in particular, this never had that kind of effect for drawing.