So, KeenSPACE is getting a name change on Monday.

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Ghastly
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Post by Ghastly »

Chris Crosby wrote:Ghastly:

"Space" is part of the new name.

The new name, which solves a simple brand confusion problem, will allow this service to have a larger prominence and more promotion through KeenSPOT than ever before.
Brand confusion my ass. It wasn't a problem, it was something Keen could have exploited.

You don't hear Coca Cola corporation whining about brand confusion with it's Coke Classic, Diet Coke, and Coke C2 products. They're all Coke, just different products in the line. Keen could have been the same with Space and Spot, all Keen, just products in the line. But no, a few arrogant Spotters insisted that you change OUR name (when changing Spots name would have been the simplest "solution" that would have affected the fewest people) so they could further distance themselves from the lowly rabble on Space.

Face it. This is just Keen's way of saying "you guys don't matter" to all us Spacers.

In the end it's not going to matter as far as Spot is concerned. The reason there's "confusion" isn't because of the names but because of the content. This namechange seems like an overreaction from Spot just because some artist got pissy and indignant because a person came up to the Keenspot booth at a con and expressed that their favorite comic was a Keenspace one. Instead of getting all pissy about someone daring to have a favorite comic that wasn't on Spot perhaps Keen should have examined the comic they liked to see how it could be better featured to the benefit of Keen and the artist. No instead we got a kneejerk "Quick let's change the name of those hacks on Space so people will instantly recognize Spot as the superiour collective."

Brand confusion my ass.

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Post by Netpoet »

Well, what brought me to Keenspace wasn't the name or the logo.

It was the community that I could visibly see within the forums, on the comic pages themselves, on your tag boards, and once I joined, in the chatrooms.

Changing the name isn't going to change that.

You're all a great group of people, and that's what made me want to come to Keenspace. Well, except for you. And you... and well, you're pretty much a given. But the rest of you!

>Matt

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Post by Joel Fagin »

The problem with Space/Spot is that they're both Keensp*. Same number of syllables, same word at a glance and, yes, I agree, they are very, very easily confused. Now, if Spot was called just "Keen" or even "Keen Comics", and Keenspace "Keenspace", that would be fine and would paralell the Coke analogy. As it stands, the fab four have a very good point.

I've know something of advertising, mainly because that's what I do as a graphics designer. Advertising is always part of the purpose of any graphics design work and it's an important (but oft neglected) facet in my job.

And I think the fab four are quite right. Whatever personal and emotional reason may or may not be behind it, the core point is completely valid.
Phalanx wrote:Rpin's star logo is more or less regarded as our emblem
Well, it is by us but I've never had any impression of there being any amount of logo-recognition outside of Keenspace. That could easily be because I've missed it, mind.

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Post by RPin »

Joel Fagin wrote:
Phalanx wrote:Rpin's star logo is more or less regarded as our emblem
Well, it is by us but I've never had any impression of there being any amount of logo-recognition outside of Keenspace. That could easily be because I've missed it, mind.
That may be because it hardly got any advertising outside of Keenspace. Well, let us wait and see if they are going to reuse it or what.

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Post by RPin »

Joel Fagin wrote:And I think the fab four are quite right. Whatever personal and emotional reason may or may not be behind it, the core point is completely valid.
Also, not to condemn or appraise the recent decision, there were many ways to deal with the problem of brand confusion. Personally I'd go for public conscientization upon the differences between the two. This would allow for some cross-promoting as well, since you could bring the attention from one to another.

They just voted the easy way out, which is to take away any indications that the two are run by the same company. Again, I'm not saying it's not a valid decision. It's just I'd do differently.

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Post by Komiyan »

Well, many valid points have been raised, but I'm still underlyingly irked. Maybe that'll fade with time, but there's that nagging little Ghastly at the back of my head reminding me that this feels like elitism. I've read all these posts, and you've all made good points, but the voice is still there.
*shrug*
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Post by McDuffies »

Hmmm... I would prefere that the info on the change and the actual new name was announced some time before the actual change occured. If we knew the new name and urls a month ago, we coulda use that url in cards and sampler and avoid those problems.

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Post by RPin »

They are annoucing the name change, but new URL's will only be activated in June if I get it right. That should give you guys time to reorganize.

Also, as many said, the old URL will still be available, redirecting to the new one.

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Post by Ida »

Risky wrote:Could just fill in the rest of the star red. Or something.
I second that. The stars more or less represent the 'Space' part of the name, which we're going to keep, so if the new name does not begin with a 'K', I suggest filling in the black tips of the star and putting the new name wher 'eenspace' currently is. After all, our website is significantly different from Spot's, so I fail to see why that would have to be changed.
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Post by Phalanx »

Komiyan wrote:...but there's that nagging little Ghastly at the back of my head reminding me that this feels like elitism.
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Apologies to Ghastly and Komi, but that gave me such a mental image I had to draw it.

But speaking seriously, by definition, we're all elitists to some level.

I mean, we look down on what? Ripped sprite comics and cut-and-paste and amerimanga/aniwannabe clones, and try to disassociate ourselves with them. And while perhaps we may have what is considered a good reason to do so, it seems rather hypocritical to accuse others of doing this when we're guilty of it ourselves.

Just a thought.

Edited for grammar error fix
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Post by Rkolter »

So what's this 'Keenspot' thing I keep hearing about? Never heard of 'em. Are they some kind of bastard child of Keenspace?

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Post by Jops »

rkolter wrote:So what's this 'Keenspot' thing I keep hearing about? Never heard of 'em. Are they some kind of bastard child of Keenspace?
Heh :wink: :wink:

*hugs rkolter*
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Post by Komiyan »

Haha, that's awesome Ping :D
And you do have a point, but once a good sprite/photocomic comes to our attention, we embrace it just as much as anyone else we like. Spriteville and Legostar come to mind- Sure, we know that the majority of Sprite and photo comics are pretty damn bad, but since these are exceptional, especially in their field, we acknowledge and embrace them.
(not saying that Spriteville's sprites are ripped. I know little to nothing about making sprites, but I hope that couldn't be construed as an insult..)
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Post by Ghastly »

If motivation was really brand confustion Spot would have changed its name. Despite what they think they're never going to get the "stench of Space" off themselves, we'll always be linked in the webcomic world's mind. Changing Spots name would have also helped to divorce Keenspot from its own well earned negative reputation. Instead Keenspotter dictated that Keenspacers have to be the ones to change their name with a "you're only customers so you have to do whatever we say" attitude.

Like I said, it's not the fact that the name is changing that irks me, it's the motivations and attitudes behind the name change that piss me off. It's the underlying "we're better than you" attitude that Spot has always exhibitted towards Space that's manifesting itself in this name change. If there never was a Keenspot I wouldn't care what Space was changing its name to. But there is a Keenspot and it's the one dictating what happens on Keenspace. Instead of us all being part of the same family Spot is using this name change under misdirection of "brand confusion" to drive a wedge between us to further the distance between Space and Spot. They're using this name change to further marginalize us, to further ghettoize us and the fact that they're enforcing the name change on us is just their little way of demonstrating whose thumb we're all under.

It's not that this name change is going to change the community on Space that worries me. It's that this name change is going to change the community as ever tenuious as it is on Keen that bothers me. This name change is just Spots way of kicking us out of the family.

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Post by Komiyan »

I <3 Unca Ghastly.
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Post by Phalanx »

Well try and look it from the other point of view, Ghastly. You're going independent soon. If some schiznit decided that this constituted as a betrayal and started accusing you of trying to disassociate yourself from the rest of the Keenspace because "we're not good enough for you" I highly doubt you'd let that stop you from doing what was good for the development of your comic.

Similarly, if changing the name of Keenspace benefits us, it's silly to let the opnions of a few people who don't really care influence the matter.

Also, you keep ignoring that it was not only "a few arrogant Keenspot members" that wanted the change. You know perfectly well I and a few others from Keenspace supported that decision too, and I'm not ashamed to say I did that because I felt it made good sense and would help Keenspace in the long run.

Keenspace has grown so much we can't fit under the Keenspot umbrella anymore. We need our own identity, and one that doesn't smack of "a spin-off of Keenspot".

And as much as I hate to say it, Keenspot are still the ones paying for the server, and if they stop doing that, we fold, there is no Keenspace. Plain and simple. And while I really do think Kisai and Kelly should get a say in the executive decision because they're the admins and they do the hard work, the in end it is the company's right to do what they want with their company, just as it is your call and not your readers call to do what you want with Ghastly Ghastly Comic.

I know you mean well, Ghastly, but please at least be fair and stop twisting the facts. Remember that awesomely insightful post on feminism you made a month or two ago?

Here's a reminder:
Ghastly wrote:Oh don't get me started on the whole misspelling for empowerment thing. I remember getting into it once with one of the perpetual victim type of feminists once when she started ranting about why she spells history "hystory" and woman/women as "womyn/wimyn" and "femme" instead of female.

She clamed that the word "woman" meant "not a man" and that female meant "less than male" and that the word history meant "his story" as if to suggest that women had no contribution to the past.

I pointed out to her she was dead wrong on all three counts. The "man" in "woman" is not man as in male but as in person, the word woman is an from the old english wifmon meaning "wife person". The "male" in female is likewise not related at all to the word "male" as the word "female" is based on the latin femella whereas the word "male" is based on the old french "mascle" which has it's root in the latin masculus. So female definetly does not mean "less than male". And as for history, the word does not mean "his story", it's derived from the word ancient greek "historia" which simply means "story".

Her response was the words were still sexist and that it's perfectly okay for her to continue to claim they mean what she said they meant because she's lieing for a higher purpose and is thus justified to spread misinformation for a good cause.

Man she used to drive me nuts. Everything was some big penis driven conspiracy to keep her down. Fortunately she was far too nutty for even most radical feminists to take seriously. Her definition of rape was particularily amusing. In her mind men could never be raped because all men want any kind of sex they can get thus are conscenting to the act even if they don't consciously realize it. Women on the other hand... well... rape was pretty much any sex they didn't like or later regretted. So it turned out every boyfriend she ever had raped her since after they broke up she regretted ever having slept with them, doesn't matter that she willfully and soberly conscented to have sex with them, she regretted it after they broke up therefore it was rape. She even tried to claim that she was raped by one of her boyfriends she admitted she never had sex with on the basis that if she had had sex with him she would regret it now therefore he was guilty of rape. Like I said, totally freaking nuts.

Man... I haven't seen her in years. I wonder what she's up to now. Wouldn't be surprised if she's running a conspiracy theory website. Maybe she's the secret force behind the Time Cube.

Anyways, if you want to misspell words for empowerment reasons or simply because it looks cool, be my guest but for the love of Rod people, please don't spread lies and misinformation to justify it.
Whether it's women or Keenspace, Men or Keenspot, same thing applies. Disagreeing is fine, but let's stick to the verifiable stuff, please.

ps: If you want examples of brand confusion of Keenspot and Keenspace, there are too many examples I can dig up if you need convincing. I think it's a valid point.
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Post by Cope »

I have nothing useful to say at this juncture, only that the Keenspace Star can always live on as a symbol of the Baronhood...
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Post by Komiyan »

Heh, I love McDuffies too.

Anyway, I've said my piece on this, and until the nagging voice goes away, I'll feel the same. It'll go with time, I'm sure, I'm pretty damn fickle.

I don't anything especially new to say, so I won't bother this thread anymore :)
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Post by McDuffies »

Listen to Ghastly voice!

*ponders what a tentacle porn in Komi's interpretation would look like*

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