I have a plan to save comics.

Shishio · Post by **Shishio** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:45 am

I'd wait to see what dimensions of comics you get before you start picking sizes...

I'm sure that most of what I get will be in either strip format or traditional comic page format, so I don't think it's necessary to wait until I start thinking of size.

Hey, man. This is a good idea you have here. I'm afraid I can't offer up my current comic (copyright drama, anyone?), though I wouldn't mind drawing a short children's story that can be accessed from Comicopia (who thought up that name, anyway?) For the longest time I've had an idea to make a story about a baby chick named Herbert. It would do well for the youngest of elementary students. This might be the kick in the butt I need to get it done.

When do you imagine this comic-promotion to take place? This coming school year?

I'll use your story if you decide to do it. I came up with the Comicopia name. The idea is to reference the Cornucopia, because you know, my ultimate plan is to provide kids all over the world with free comics.

As for when this will actually get off the ground, I'm hoping to have the site online by early September at the latest. And I'm hoping to have the book done sometime between September and November. But I'm still in the setup phase here, so I cannot make any promises at this point.

I'd suggest that six year olds are probably just a touch on the too young side to be aiming at for this project. Yeah, there'll be some who can read well enough to give something like this a trundle, but most of them will just not have the capability or the endurance to manage.

If this was a prose book, I could see your point, but kids love cartoons, and really, all we're doing is giving them static cartoons. I believe that if what we give them is compelling enough, they will read it.

Hell, I was dumber than a bag of shit as a kid, but my reading and comprehension skills were at University level by the time I was 14. And that's not because I'm gifted or anything, I just read a lot and developed those skills faster than most.

I really don't think reading is as hard for kids as most people seem to think it is.

Netpoet · Post by **Netpoet** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:18 am

You have my utmost respect for this project, and I'll support you in any way I can... however, none of my comics would be very appropriate for printing for kids, because they're all either violent, or they swear, etc etc...

If you need any writing power, drop me a line.

>Net

Shishio · Post by **Shishio** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:18 am

netpoet wrote:If you need any writing power, drop me a line.

If you ever decide to do a new project that is appropriate, let me know. If this proves successful, I would, like I said, love to make it more organized, and, among other things, solicit new stories, pair collaborators together, etc.

But, currently having no incentive to offer anyone, I'm not comfortable with asking anyone to make anything specifically for the site at this time.

Noir · Post by **Noir** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:53 am

Shishio wrote:But, currently having no incentive to offer anyone, I'm not comfortable with asking anyone to make anything specifically for the site at this time.

I think you should get comfortable. You have your enthusiasm and vision, and considering what people will often do for those two I don't think a comic strip is too much to ask. Especially since you are putting in your own time effort and money.

Spreading work is a good idea, not only will your end product be better as it will play to strengths, but the workload will be less. If you could pair up a writer with a 6-12 page idea, an artist and a colourist the load on any one of them would not be too onerous. If you could repeat that grouping a few times it would produce quite a bit.

I would be willing to do 6-12 pages of pencil or inks.

Shishio · Post by **Shishio** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:14 am

While I am willing to serialize short stories, I would like to have a good amount of ongoing ones. I mean, I want to hook kids on comics, and it won't do to get them into something and then cut off their supply.

Orinocou · Post by **Orinocou** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:30 am

Shishio wrote:If this was a prose book, I could see your point, but kids love cartoons, and really, all we're doing is giving them static cartoons. I believe that if what we give them is compelling enough, they will read it.
[....]

I really don't think reading is as hard for kids as most people seem to think it is.

Agreed. One of the most beautiful aspects of comics is its universality. Wordless comics do really well with this (and airlines have used this for their safety procedures). Even the youngest kids are fascinated with pictures, and will probably be that much more encouraged to read the accompanying text to find out what happens in the story. Six years seems like a fine time to introduce kids to comics.

Though I would be concerned about selling the idea of comic-reading to parents and schools. There's that stigma of comics being nothing but superheroes and violence which needs to be dispelled.

Of course, I'm sure you've already given this plenty of thought. I know I'm not saying anything new.

Shishio · Post by **Shishio** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:42 am

orinocou wrote:Though I would be concerned about selling the idea of comic-reading to parents and schools. There's that stigma of comics being nothing but superheroes and violence which needs to be dispelled.

I don't think there's a stigma about violence yet. Comics are generally regarded as children's tripe, and inferior to the book/movie/whatever else mediums. I think the "maturation" of superhero comics has happened relatively recently, but I haven't read superhero comics in years so I can't say for certain.

I do think this is changing though. I believe manga, webcomics and the like are revolutionizing and revitalizing the industry. People's perceptions are slowly changing, people outside the small demographic that follows Marvel/DC's stuff are finding stuff they enjoy, and there are more people being inspired to make comics of their own.

Additionally, librarians across North American are realizing that kids like comics, and are working to stock appropriate titles. Educators now realize the importance of comics, so I do not anticipate any difficulty in convincing schools and libraries to believe in this project. And even if they aren't receptive to it, I will carry it on in a different manner until they are.

Dutch! · Post by **Dutch!** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:24 pm

Wordless comics would work for the youngest school kids, yes, but not many of the strips you've got in your swag already will cater for an age group that young. They'll love the pictures and so forth, no doubt, but I still reckon it won't be till they read about eight or so before they'll have the reading skills properly developed to get enough out of the comics as in comprehending what each is, understanding the humour of joke strips, etc.

Carry on though, by all means

Orinocou · Post by **Orinocou** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:28 pm

Shishio wrote: I don't think there's a stigma about violence yet. Comics are generally regarded as children's tripe, and inferior to the book/movie/whatever else mediums. I think the "maturation" of superhero comics has happened relatively recently, but I haven't read superhero comics in years so I can't say for certain.

I do think this is changing though. I believe manga, webcomics and the like are revolutionizing and revitalizing the industry. People's perceptions are slowly changing, people outside the small demographic that follows Marvel/DC's stuff are finding stuff they enjoy, and there are more people being inspired to make comics of their own.

Additionally, librarians across North American are realizing that kids like comics, and are working to stock appropriate titles. Educators now realize the importance of comics, so I do not anticipate any difficulty in convincing schools and libraries to believe in this project. And even if they aren't receptive to it, I will carry it on in a different manner until they are.

No, you're definitely right, the way people look at comics is changing, and manga seems to be playing a part in that. There are even manga titles available that are tailored to vocab building for the SAT! I recently saw in a bookstore a copy of Van Von Hunter that was being marketed to high schoolers for just that purpose. If parents and teachers can come around to the idea that comics can be used for instructional purposes, then all the better for us, eh?

NakedElf · Post by **NakedElf** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:13 am

I've got an almost completely wordless comic about... oh never mind :P

For some reason, wordless stories always confused me *more* as a kid than stories with words, even if I couldn't understand the words. I mean, I understood the basic concept of words=story, words+picture=story, etc. I'd been seeing books with words on them since I was 2 or whenever, so I had that notion down pretty well. These books I occasionally found with no words in them... WTF was up with that? Did they just forget the words?

I have no idea how easy or hard reading is for other people. I really only have myself and a very small selection of people for comparison, and I know we're not a representative sample. However, I would venture the idea that people such as ourselves who devote large amounts of their time to written media may have some amount of natural affinity or at least strong skills in it which other people may not.

Of course, being a self-interested bastard, I vote for making everything in the world oriented towards people like me :P

I like to think that people will rise to the expectations set for them. If you challenge kids, they'll meet your challenges. If you just give them 'age appropriate' crap all of the time, then you aren't challenging them...

Shishio · Post by **Shishio** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:23 am

orinocou wrote:If parents and teachers can come around to the idea that comics can be used for instructional purposes, then all the better for us, eh?

Yes, exactly.

NakedElf wrote:For some reason, wordless stories always confused me *more* as a kid than stories with words, even if I couldn't understand the words. I mean, I understood the basic concept of words=story, words+picture=story, etc. I'd been seeing books with words on them since I was 2 or whenever, so I had that notion down pretty well. These books I occasionally found with no words in them... WTF was up with that? Did they just forget the words?

It's possible that the stories you had difficulty with were illustrated by someone who did not understand sequential storytelling very well. In fact, in all comics, with words, or without, the art should impart as much of the story as possible. There's a great wordless comic which is also an excellent example of sequential storytelling in one of the Flight books. First or third one, I think. It's by Phil Craven.

NakedElf wrote:I have no idea how easy or hard reading is for other people. I really only have myself and a very small selection of people for comparison, and I know we're not a representative sample. However, I would venture the idea that people such as ourselves who devote large amounts of their time to written media may have some amount of natural affinity or at least strong skills in it which other people may not.

Well yeah, the more you do something, the better you get at it.

NakedElf wrote:I like to think that people will rise to the expectations set for them. If you challenge kids, they'll meet your challenges. If you just give them 'age appropriate' crap all of the time, then you aren't challenging them...

I believe this is true, as long as there is sufficient motivation for them to overcome the challenge. Hopefully what I give them will be visually pleasing enough to provide this motivation.

Dutch! · Post by **Dutch!** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:33 pm

Age appropriate also means high enough to challenge them, not just set at exactly the same age as the kid. They're not separate.

Ripps818 · Post by **Ripps818** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:47 pm

I think my comic would be appropriate for all ages. I'm not sure about the appeal though. It's not very mature and it's mostly just weird. So If you think it'll work, just tell me.

Shishio · Post by **Shishio** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:58 am

I'll take a look when I have a more stable connection. In the meantime, anyone know of a easy-to-use CMS that will serialize multiple comics on one site?

The Neko · Post by **The Neko** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:40 am

I really like this idea, and if done correctly, I think it could be a wonderful thing.

The one thing I remember as a kid that used to drive me nuts is that a lot of the content produced for children was very condescending. I think this is why the old WB cartoons were re-fashioned on TV to be for children, even when their original context were to precede the main reel at the cinema. It was content that could both appeal to children and adult sensibilities without either being too lowbrow for one or condescending to the other.

I think the main thing is that people often don't give children enough credit. While this doesn't mean you should fill a comic with mature material that they can't possibly handle by any means, it's more that one shouldn't underestimate what kids can and can't understand in humor. I think this might also have something to do with the success of series like Spongebob Squarepants not only amongst children but of college-age kids as well.

Shishio · Post by **Shishio** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:56 pm

The Neko wrote:I really like this idea, and if done correctly, I think it could be a wonderful thing.

I appreciate your saying so. I am fully aware that this is a huge undertaking, and I will do my utmost to live up to everyone's expectations.

But hey, worst case scenario is I fail miserably, but am able to use what I learned to help others who I may have inspired. At least, I am hoping I will inspire people. I've seen a lot of doom and gloom attitudes from people in comics, which really bugs me, because there are so many smart, capable people in comics, and if they just all worked together and apply the same intelligence and skill they use to create great stories, to solving the problems facing the industry, I believe they could solve those problems quite easily.

And Neko, I know you're dedicated to improving yourself as an artist, so maybe you should work towards that goal by creating something for the site. Just saying.

NakedElf · Post by **NakedElf** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:33 pm

I actually thought of a comic I have/been working on somewhat which could be kid-friendly.

Here's the first chapter:
<a href="http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/22873990/">Page one</a>
<a href="http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/22873959/">Page two</a>
<a href="http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/22873943/">Page three</a>
<a href="http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/22873923/">page four</a>
<a href="http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/22873906/">page five</a>
<a href="http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/22873888/">page six</a>
<a href="http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/22873863/">page seven</a>
<a href="http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/22873847/">page eight</a>
<a href="http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/22873834/">page nine</a>

I'd want to redraw it, given that it's A. massively old and so kind of artistically sucky and B. the art style isn't ideal for these purposes, C. I think there's a 'dammit' in there, and D. I do my text on the computer now, so it's much more readable... (see old and sucky.)

The basic idea is that in a fantasy world of dragons and knights and warrior princesses, one chibi-princess has decided to be a lawyer princess. In this particular case, the Evil King's dragons accidentally burned down a forest which was home to a rare species of talking squirrel, so now the squirrels are suing him for damages.

Shishio · Post by **Shishio** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:39 pm

Sounds good.

Cici · Post by **Cici** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:55 am

very good idea. you know ~~~
i think i need to thinking about it as well

Shishio · Post by **Shishio** » Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:36 am

Time for an update.

Sorry I've been so quiet about this as of late, I'm busy with life, I'm sure you guys know how it is.

Anyway, I had a flash of inspiration awhile ago, and I would like to hear your thoughts on it.

When I first came up with this, I also wanted to create a non-profit organization for Comicopia and my other comics/literacy/whatever-promotion plans to be a part of. You know, to provide some semblance of legitimacy to the educators/librarians/etc I should eventually be working with, because I imagine they're the types that will look for that sort of thing.

But until a couple weeks ago, I could not, for the life of me, come up with a name. Then it came to me in the aforementioned flash of inspiration: Comics For Communities. I really like it, but I am wiling to consider other suggestions if anyone has any.

Whatever the name ends up being, I intend to use this template for the site, unless, again, someone provides something better.

As for how things are progressing, right now I'm going to work on the NPO site, and on getting some business cards and flyers designed. I'm hoping Joel will have finished the Comicopia site design by the time I'm done, if not, I'll throw up a simple, temporary template.

I'm still hoping to receive the assistance of a web developer, if not, I'll have to forego a number of features for the site, and run the comics of multiple installs of Comicspress, which I'm sure is a terrible idea that will put a lot of strain on my server, but that's what happens when technologically illiterate people undertake projects such as this.

Edit: I would also appreciate suggestions for a logo.