4th of July!

[Fadedflame]

I spent the fourth once again not lighting fireowkrs, though darn it one of these years I will get to light fireworks on the fourth of July.

As for the Pledge, in my school, every morning we were forced to say that, and I would stay seated, after the first couple of days my teacher gave up because I told him flat out I refuse to say anything that endorses any religion in regards to our nation. This was back when people actually thought I believed in a god, silly monotheists at my high school.

Personally I could care less what you believe as long as it doesn't interfer with my life. Don't try to force your religion on me, I'm a great debater and I'll gladly run you in circles, and I'll happily leave you alone about mine. I have a problem with my countries pledge, anthem, money ect. talking about one god, in fact I'd have a problem with any religion is expressed, even if it was my own.

This nation was orignially about religious freedom, yet our own legalities go against that. It doesn't seem right to me.

~Faded

[YarpsDat]

Let the sophistry begin!!

Who will got to heaven? The person who believed in God because he was told to, or the person who believed in God because he seriously believes in God of his own free will and mind? If you think they both go, you should do yourself a favor and re-read your bible.

Read it every day, thank you, and in case anyone didn't notice, neither will get into heaven. The only way into heaven from a Christian perspective is through Jesus Christ; I support this idea wholeheartedly.

I'm curious, are you just quoting the book, or could you explain "through Jesus Christ" in some more detail?
Anyways, the way I see it, if there is heaven, and it is anywhere like the catolics say, the both will get in because the god is all mercifull and forgiving.
If it's set up some other way, I'd say it's 50/50 in all cases. ie. if the real god is the one that required blood sacrifices, perhaps only serial killers get in.

But where do you draw the line between educating them that the choice is there, and making the choice for them? The entire anabaptist movement was based on the idea that you could not choose Jesus Christ as your own personal Lord and savior until you were an adult. I feel I personally was a Christian the moment I made that conscious decision at the age of six, and do not regret it one bit.

I chose agnosticism ("I don't care"), at the age of twelve or something. And I think everybody should be given that chance.
The way you look at it, most religions worship some god or gods, which is a pure waste of time IMHO. And then there is the whole "believing" thing that basically makes you _believe_ what the elders say without thinking about it on your own.

Sure, it's usefull for controlling people: "do this and don't do that, or you'll go to hell", "don't drink the dirty water, or the god will curse you for beeing unclean", "kill 10 non believers and you're guaranteed to go to heaven", "do _NOT_ kill people, or you'll go to hell", "don't steal, or you'll go to hell", "be nice to people, and you'll go to heaven" ect. but I think in the current age of science, law and technology the religion has reached the end of it's usefulness.

Aaaaaand what if my religion were about expecting you to follow my god?

Sorry sir, I'll have to ask you to leave your religion outside the door.

Finally, the US Constitution (as well as any government system period) can only work well with the majority of people being good. Unless you're one of those types that thinks a society that works well is one where things are way outta hand, in which case I can't say much.

So what you are saying is that the only people capable of being 'good' are those who believe in God?

Check please.

Nope. Maybe I implied that, but I sure didn't say it. Everyone has the potential to be 'good'. But no matter what, that's not gonna cut it because "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." But that's just what I believe. Excuse me for forcing my worldviews on others, when my worldviews involve forcing my worldviews on others. >)

Wah?
So...
Actually, what did you meant by that?

So, even if they have sinned (which BTW is ridiculous), there was the Jesus fellow so it doesn't matter.

Looks to me like you just wanted to quote another piece of your favourite daily lecture. Because is sure doesn't seem like and argument in the discussion.

EDIT: oh wait, I see, you say, "all people have the potential to be good, but they have also all sinned by default, fortunately there is the Jesus that negates that sin, but it's only for believers. In the end result non believers are: good potential+bad sin, and believers are: good potential, so it's believers all the way!"
If you're saying that, I think you're horribly wrong. If you're not saying that, I think you're horribly unclear.


Anyways, I think people are good by default. There is the stuff like conscience, sense of justice, and stuff. I sure as hell ; ) don't need to be afraid of some God to prevent me from stealing, killing and doing other nasty stuff.
Some don't do that because they are afraid of beeing caught, others don't because of the conscience and stuff, and finally some people do it, but teaching them about gods is not gonna change that.

[Taiwanimation]

Finally got around to scanning it this morning.



drawn with colored pencils, original dimensions 13"x21"

[MixedMyth]

Schweeeet! Great job, Tiwanimation! Did you use Prismacolors, out of curiosity? It must have taken forever to do, too. Especially at such large dimentions.

[Taiwanimation]

My Prismas are at school so at home I got a Prang 36-box (well, actually 34 since the gold and silver pencils are useless- they don't scan well). Total time was approximately 8-10 hours over 3 days. The planning goes back much further though, and is a melding of sketches from a month ago. There's one of the woman holding the earth, there's another of the spiral of figures (the fourth figure was originally an artist), and numerous ones of the buildings at the right.

[Superlance]

...Am I the only one who doesn't mind the "under God" bit?

It must remain.
The nation was founded under God by a bunch of mostly Christian people 300 years ago, and no atheists (but was there really such a thing then?) had any objections to it; so these whiney people (have you noticed how many incredinly whiney people there are thse days? It's unbelievable) have no right to march across the counrty waving flags thinking they can change it.
All they do is block traffic.

And anyway, why should people complain so much about the 10 Commandments in schools and such?
It may be Christian, but they are obviously pertinent laws-
Though shall not kill?
That sounds like a fairly reasonable law to present to people in courthouses and schools, right?
Or am I just crazy?

[TheGoobla]

And anyway, why should people complain so much about the 10 Commandments in schools and such?
It may be Christian, but they are obviously pertinent laws-
Though shall not kill?
That sounds like a fairly reasonable law to present to people in courthouses and schools, right?
Or am I just crazy?

1. Thou shalt have no other Gods before me.

Well, gee. That seems to fly right in the face of the first ammendment.

2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

This Yahweh character needs to calm down with the jealousy. And I don't really like the idea of holding grudges, especially against a person's third and fourth generation just because their ancestor broke some religious law.

3. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain

Ah! Just like plastering his name everywhere until it losing all of it's spiritual significance? Good suggestion.

4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Not too relevent to the non-Christians/Jews though. And it truly is a shame that people have changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday superfically because of an ancient sun-worshipper's commands. Ah well. I'm sure the Lord understands that when you honour Sunday, you really mean the Sabbath.

5. Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee

Translation: Honour your parents - or I'll kill you. I'll have to disagree with this though. I tend to believe respect has to be earned.

6. Thou shalt not kill.

Ah, what a wonderful common sense sentiment. Not terribly unique or original, but I think we're starting to get to the nice stuff! Let's just ignore the blood sacrifices the Lord demands, and all of those nasty religious incursions that happened by Yahweh's commands. That would take things out of context, of course.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery

Good idea. Though, that's a private matter and not really up to the state to punish. Good stuff though! Unless you and your partner(s) happen to be into polygamy or swinging.

8. Thou shalt not steal

Well, that's good too. Too bad it only applied to other jews at the time it was written.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour

Again, only applied to the other jews at the time. But still a nice sentiment

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's

Well crap. There goes our wonderful capitalism. Damn. ( Imagine the nerve of God! I think he could very well be a communist! )

So, there you have it. Why you shouldn't go posting ancient religious laws on government buildings that are meant to be secular.

[Psiogen]

whiney people

Yeah...they're everywhere. Like when the "under God" line was added to the pledge in 1954 by whiny Christians who couldn't handle the idea of a non-Christian-themed Pledge.

And anyway, why should people complain so much about the 10 Commandments in schools and such?
It may be Christian, but they are obviously pertinent laws-
Though shall not kill?
That sounds like a fairly reasonable law to present to people in courthouses and schools, right?
Or am I just crazy?

What about the first one? You know, the one that commands us all to worship the Judeo-Christian God before all other Gods?

What about the second commandment--to never draw, paint, sculpt, or in any way depict anything in the world? (Whoops, I guess that puts us all out of a job.)

Yeah, those are highly reasonable things to have in our courthouses and schools.

But really, the point of people protesting little things like that is not that these things matter so much in and of themselves. It's symbolic. It's about getting to a point where all Americans truly have equal rights. It's about a day when we don't all have to bow to the wishes of a bunch of so-called Christians whining about how gay people are destroying the world, or whatever their latest ignorance crusade is.

[Spirat]

6. Thou shalt not kill.

hey, remember the crusades? Thou shalt not kill {other christians}

besides...the "Under god" was placed during uh...a war by....fdr? truman? blast i don't remember, but it was done to better unite the us, and wasn't there as far i as i remember originally...

[Psiogen]

besides...the "Under god" was placed during uh...a war by....fdr? truman? blast i don't remember, but it was done to better unite the us, and wasn't there as far i as i remember originally...

It was Eisenhower. A side-effect of McCarthyism...

[MixedMyth]

hey, remember the crusades? Thou shalt not kill {other christians}

Random fact of the day: One of the first towns invaded by the crusaders (although I forget which Crusade it was) was actually a Christian settlment. I found that sadly ironic. Ah PBS, you teach me so much...when I'm not watching Red Dwarf.

But yes, the "In God" bit doesn't go back to the founding of the U.S. or even the Constitution. It goes back 'bout fifty years. To McCarthyism...which I would have to nominate as one of the worst things to come out of Wisconsin.

[Grabmygoblin]

5. Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee

Translation: Honour your parents - or I'll kill you. I'll have to disagree with this though. I tend to believe respect has to be earned.

I got into a huge fight with my parents over that came down to this (translation- we actually had a fight for once) we were visiting my conservative grandparents and were going to church at their parish, and my mom felt one of my regular baby tees was too liberal for them. so my mom insisted I wear a shirt borrowed from my older sister. I was not pleased with this, because I felt my mom was calling me a slut. so my mom actually used the 5th commandment to argue her case. I was flabbergasted. I eventually gave in- because I did not want her to know I had broken almost all the other rules she had set down the second I reached college.

[JexKerome]

It's about getting to a point where all Americans truly have equal rights. It's about a day when we don't all have to bow to the wishes of a bunch of so-called Christians whining about how gay people are destroying the world, or whatever their latest ignorance crusade is.

Odd, I tought it was only the catholics that persecute gays. And just the fundamentalist catholics, at that.

Odder still if you consider that America was founded by Puritans, which were not only Protestant, but also unpopular enough to be persecuted in Protestant England.

[JPSloan]

In point of fact, folks, the founding fathers were predominantly Theists or Universalizing Unitarians... both of which value the Creation over the Creator.

And most importantly, they strove to reverse the Puritanical mindset, for the purposes of the Puritans' flight... persecution by the State Church.

And yet another reminder, the "under God" phrase wasn't traditional. It was added in the '50's as a jab at Communism.

And even furthermore, when America was founded, women had no voting rights, Africans and Caribbeans were treated as property, and the Catholics (mostly outside of Maryland) were openly persecuted for their beliefs.

Do we really want to turn back the clock???

[LAGtheNoggin]

so these whiney people (have you noticed how many incredinly whiney people there are thse days? It's unbelievable) have no right to march across the counrty waving flags thinking they can change it.
All they do is block traffic.

Hahaha! ^.^ I hope to God the irony there was intended.

[Skylark King]

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's

By the way, is it just me or does TheGoobla have a really nice ass? I wish I had theGoobla's ass.

One of the biggest problems I had with christianity was that if I believed everything that was being told to me then it is clear to me that the only purpose we have on earth is to worship God, and to make other people worship God, too. If this was the case (which is something I'd have to accept if I was Christian) then the only conclusion I could come to is that God is a dick with nothing better to do than to create people whose sole purpose is to kiss his ass.

I would also have to believe that God would create someone knowing full well that that person was going to hell. (because, after all, he is all-knowing, and all goes according to his plan and will) I can't believe in a God that would create someone whose ultimate destiny involves a great gnashing of teeth.

I'm not saying there isn't a God, I have an equally tough time believing that "about a zillion years ago, some star sneezed now they're paging you in reception" The details of life are too intricate to be chance. There is, in all likelyhood, a creator... and it might be that it's the God of Christianity. I just know that through the teachings of Christinaity and the Bible that if that is the case he's a total dick.

[JPSloan]

I'm not saying there isn't a God, I have an equally tough time believing that "about a zillion years ago, some star sneezed now they're paging you in reception"

I love that quote. Four marks.

Well, you could always ascribe to the Gnostic view, wherein all deities emanate from the Divine Source, but each "iteration" of deity suffers from generation decay... because the more specifically you define a god the more limited it is. The desert god of the Christians, Jews, and Muslims is often referred to as the Demiurge, or the God of Creation. His problem is that he doesn't believe in the existence of other gods, and believes that he existed in the eternal past. Thus his mother (the aeon of Wisdom) planted a seed of the Divine Source into his creations, so that one day, by questioning the omnipotence of the Demiurge, they might ascend beyond him.

May sound dull, but it's a large part of what the Wachowski's based the first Matrix movie on.

[Skylark King]

I love that quote. Four marks.

I should only get half points when I quote XTC, it's perpetual.

[Psiogen]

Buddhism is a much better religion than Christianity anyhow. Look at Avalokitesvara, for example (sort of the Buddhist equivalent of Jesus.) The right-wing Jesus only saves a handful of arbitrary gullible people and then says, "Fuck it...the rest of you can go to Hell"--Avalokitesvara is sworn to save every being in the universe before he/she gets to go off to Nirvana.

Plus, the Buddhists are sensible enough to not try to pretend that Avalokitesvara literally exists in any ordinary sense--he/she is just a manifestation of the force of compassion.

[JPSloan]

Buddhism is a much better religion than Christianity anyhow. Look at Avalokitesvara, for example (sort of the Buddhist equivalent of Jesus.) The right-wing Jesus only saves a handful of arbitrary gullible people and then says, "Fuck it...the rest of you can go to Hell"--Avalokitesvara is sworn to save every being in the universe before he/she gets to go off to Nirvana.

Plus, the Buddhists are sensible enough to not try to pretend that Avalokitesvara literally exists in any ordinary sense--he/she is just a manifestation of the force of compassion.

Though I'd love to see a battle royale between Jesuits and Shaolin monks!