You might consider starting a new forum for it and running it like a jam. Toss out three ingredients that have to be in the comic and let anyone who wants to join in give it a shot in the one week time period. The next week start over with three new ingredients. It'd be our very own Iron Chef ComicGenesis!Michael K wrote: In fact leaving poser aside for a moment I'd love to do a comic where that was the "gimick" each week you get people to give you a list of things you need to include... wait. Stop. Bad Michael. Get current comic at least on net before thinking of new projects.
What do you think of Poser for comics?
Re: What do you think of Poser for comics?
Re: What do you think of Poser for comics?
That does sound like a neat exercise, actually. Hmmm...Faileas wrote:You might consider starting a new forum for it and running it like a jam. Toss out three ingredients that have to be in the comic and let anyone who wants to join in give it a shot in the one week time period. The next week start over with three new ingredients. It'd be our very own Iron Chef ComicGenesis!Michael K wrote: In fact leaving poser aside for a moment I'd love to do a comic where that was the "gimick" each week you get people to give you a list of things you need to include... wait. Stop. Bad Michael. Get current comic at least on net before thinking of new projects.
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RPin
- Gentleman Pornographer
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There is a japanese software that's supposed to work like Maya and be as cheap as Poser. I don't know much about it, never bothered to look up.
I think this image was done using it. Somewhat NSFW too.
I think this image was done using it. Somewhat NSFW too.
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MixedMyth
- Cartoon Villain
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Wow....Tifa...jiggling. You know, I'm so glad they didn't include that in Advent Children. It is well animated, though.RPin wrote: I think this image was done using it. Somewhat NSFW too.
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Kisai
- Goddess of Light
- Posts: 3276
- Joined: Fri Jan 01, 1999 4:00 pm
- Location: The Past, the Present, The future
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In the interest of preventing people from pirating Poser from the net...
There are free programs (Blender and Daz studio) that let you make 3D and pose stuff.
The problem is that people who can hand-draw may not be very good or any good at 3D. I'm ... probably not the best person to answer it, but I can tell you I've followed the "how to make a 3D anime girl" tutorial for 3DSMAX and adapted it to Blender and it does work. The problem is IK (Inverse Kinimatics) setup, uhhh I never seen a tutorial on how to do it, but that's how you do the actual 3D animation without having to move every single polygon for each frame. Poser uses IK with some set "varible points" to let you animate. DAZ lets you do the entire scene setup too.
People who use poser out of the box, tend to make stuff that looks very plastic and "the same as everyone else using poser" you need to make your own stuff , and... well it's easier to draw a new person than it is to make one in 3D.
If you actually scale down the detail, you can get away with more. ...
I always like using this animation as "anime in 3D" reference
(Look up "Shining Lore", the game seems to have never made release, but the opening animation is pretty cute) There is also a music video that has a higher resolution version of the opening "(Choco) ShinVi - Darling.avi", the actual trailer can be found at http://downloads.gamezone.com/demos/d9772.htm
According to the GUIDE, we have only 14 comics that are 3D, http://guide.comicgenesis.com/k_sty_cgi_3d.html
Also there is a program called POVRAY that you can use to create 3D stuff in... script coding, if that's your style. Usually what people do is convert meshes from one 3D program, import into POVRAY to make really nifty looking 3D stuff.
There is also a free old version of a commercial application... just let me check my spam mail box... Ah, TrueSpace, http://forms.caligari.com/forms/ts3all_free.html , this will even run on windows 3.1 I here. There was one comic that used it: http://smithstone.comicgenesis.com/ (Ended in 2003 it looks like, Made in Truespace version 1!) Caution some scenes NSFW.
So there is a lot of cool stuff you can do in 3D... just it takes a lot of patience to do it, but once you've created your stuff, you don't need to redo it constantly.
A compromise between 3D and 2D is to make 3D backgrounds with 2D foregrounds. This way the long tedious portion (backgrounds) that people hate drawing only need to be created once. It's easy enough to composite 2D ontop of 3D... it's what is called ChromaKey (or Blue-screen) inside the 3D software, or you can just paste it into your favorite paint program.
EDIT:
DAZ also lets you create cartoon shading, but I believe you need a OpenGL 2.0/DirectX9 capable card that supports vertex and pixel shaders
As for the question as to why buy any of this stuff online... Well if you are a multimillion dollar company and you want to create a mockup of something really fast, it's cheaper to download a few models and pose them than it is to have someone spend a month making a single model.
In short: 3D good, Poser not so good, Free 3D software good, 3D heavy time investment, get it got it good.
There are free programs (Blender and Daz studio) that let you make 3D and pose stuff.
The problem is that people who can hand-draw may not be very good or any good at 3D. I'm ... probably not the best person to answer it, but I can tell you I've followed the "how to make a 3D anime girl" tutorial for 3DSMAX and adapted it to Blender and it does work. The problem is IK (Inverse Kinimatics) setup, uhhh I never seen a tutorial on how to do it, but that's how you do the actual 3D animation without having to move every single polygon for each frame. Poser uses IK with some set "varible points" to let you animate. DAZ lets you do the entire scene setup too.
People who use poser out of the box, tend to make stuff that looks very plastic and "the same as everyone else using poser" you need to make your own stuff , and... well it's easier to draw a new person than it is to make one in 3D.
If you actually scale down the detail, you can get away with more. ...
I always like using this animation as "anime in 3D" reference
(Look up "Shining Lore", the game seems to have never made release, but the opening animation is pretty cute) There is also a music video that has a higher resolution version of the opening "(Choco) ShinVi - Darling.avi", the actual trailer can be found at http://downloads.gamezone.com/demos/d9772.htm
According to the GUIDE, we have only 14 comics that are 3D, http://guide.comicgenesis.com/k_sty_cgi_3d.html
Also there is a program called POVRAY that you can use to create 3D stuff in... script coding, if that's your style. Usually what people do is convert meshes from one 3D program, import into POVRAY to make really nifty looking 3D stuff.
There is also a free old version of a commercial application... just let me check my spam mail box... Ah, TrueSpace, http://forms.caligari.com/forms/ts3all_free.html , this will even run on windows 3.1 I here. There was one comic that used it: http://smithstone.comicgenesis.com/ (Ended in 2003 it looks like, Made in Truespace version 1!) Caution some scenes NSFW.
So there is a lot of cool stuff you can do in 3D... just it takes a lot of patience to do it, but once you've created your stuff, you don't need to redo it constantly.
A compromise between 3D and 2D is to make 3D backgrounds with 2D foregrounds. This way the long tedious portion (backgrounds) that people hate drawing only need to be created once. It's easy enough to composite 2D ontop of 3D... it's what is called ChromaKey (or Blue-screen) inside the 3D software, or you can just paste it into your favorite paint program.
EDIT:
DAZ also lets you create cartoon shading, but I believe you need a OpenGL 2.0/DirectX9 capable card that supports vertex and pixel shaders
As for the question as to why buy any of this stuff online... Well if you are a multimillion dollar company and you want to create a mockup of something really fast, it's cheaper to download a few models and pose them than it is to have someone spend a month making a single model.
In short: 3D good, Poser not so good, Free 3D software good, 3D heavy time investment, get it got it good.
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Resolve
- Regular Poster
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- Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:39 pm
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it's funny, i use to hate 3d animation, cause i thought it looked souless. but times change, and I'm impressed all the time by whats out currently. Computer animation is a powerfull tool.
It certainly won't replace anything that is used now.. (excpept maybe clayamation). But it really has come a long way.
It certainly won't replace anything that is used now.. (excpept maybe clayamation). But it really has come a long way.
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Black Sparrow
- Cartoon Anti-Hero
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- Location: Violating your restraining order
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I was curious, so I downloaded DAZ, the free-ish Poser shadow program.
Notice the "ish".
Yeah, it's got some pretty good capabilities, but the starter kits are rather sucky. They don't even give you clothing for the one default model. They expect you to shell out a $15 or so for a clothing set, and another $20 for a background.
In other words, it's cool to play with, but I, for one, am just too cheap to devote my meagar funds to such a hobby.
Notice the "ish".
Yeah, it's got some pretty good capabilities, but the starter kits are rather sucky. They don't even give you clothing for the one default model. They expect you to shell out a $15 or so for a clothing set, and another $20 for a background.
In other words, it's cool to play with, but I, for one, am just too cheap to devote my meagar funds to such a hobby.
This is going in my notebook titled "Things I Didn't Know about Surface Dwellers."
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Turnsky
- Cartoon Hero
- Posts: 1488
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- Location: Devonport, Tasmania
- Contact:
program itself is free, the stuff to make it fully functional, not so free, infact, i think it's a bit of a trap, really.Black Sparrow wrote:I was curious, so I downloaded DAZ, the free-ish Poser shadow program.
Notice the "ish".
Yeah, it's got some pretty good capabilities, but the starter kits are rather sucky. They don't even give you clothing for the one default model. They expect you to shell out a $15 or so for a clothing set, and another $20 for a background.
In other words, it's cool to play with, but I, for one, am just too cheap to devote my meagar funds to such a hobby.
"when a hero dies, he becomes a legend, that legend, with time, becomes a myth, then a fable, that fable, is then carved in stone, and when that stone crumbles, it is lost" - Takahn.
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Phact0rri
- The Establishment (Moderator)
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I'm also under the school of "where in poser or any medium would not disuade me from enjoying myself, I've yet to be impressed with any comic in this medium"
That being said, I do recall there was once (maybe still is) a gag strip done with three models, I use to read regularly.
if medium is the hardest bit you have to decide when doing a comic, then it should be a cakewalk.
That being said, I do recall there was once (maybe still is) a gag strip done with three models, I use to read regularly.
if medium is the hardest bit you have to decide when doing a comic, then it should be a cakewalk.
<KittyKatBlack> You look deranged. But I mean that in the nicest way possible. ^_^;
I agree. As mentioned in the original post: At most you need a photographic reference to create what you need. With 3D programs you're totally dependant on your expertise with the software. I use 3Ds Max for CAD drawings, but not for comics. It's not skill in drawing, it's expertise in what filter, spinner, dial do you have to know about to get the lighting to look natural. Basically, it take years of practice to be good, and it doesn't make much sense to start all over using new software that won't get you results right away.alschroeder wrote:but every one ends up looking plastic at this stage of the software, so I don't think it will rival actual drawing.
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Maxim Kovalenko
- Regular Poster
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- Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 10:03 pm
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Do you use poser for your comic?
I use it extensively running the gambit from Poser 6, 3d Studio Max, Bryce 5 and 5.5, to Daz Studio.
Do you use it for fun?
Sometimes....
Are Poser comics the new sprite comics?
No.
To those who use poser, do you draw?
Some nowadays...mainly mechanical and drafting style work.
If not, would you use poser if you could draw instead?
Quite honestly? No. The thing is, that the 3d CGI programs are the only medium that I have seen that I can actually use to get the pictures I see inside my head out. It's a tool....nothing more. If I could get what I'm seeing out with a crayon and a stick of charcoal I would use that.
Now some thoughts...
On Poser...
If you are willing to take the time and effort, you can do anything with it. Anything
The problem is, that most of the people who are using it are just using it out of the box. They aren't making their own textures, they aren't building their own models and landscapes. They aren't trying to individualize the result in any way.
Lighting is no longer a problem if you are willing to make the effort at it either...especially with Image Based Lighting and Subsurface Scatterring that is now available in Poser 6.
Poser models offer plenty of control...each Poser model can be hand edited within Notepad to custom define the parameters you are dealing with. How much control you you have is dependent on you, it isn't just moving sliders back and forth (of course a lot of people use it that way.)
As for building your own models? I do a lot of that...but then again I also mix in third party content as well. It depends on the mood and what's necessary for the piece. I'd say it runs about 50/50 for indoor work....90(my own builds)/10 (3rd party) for outdoor work, like cityscapes, woordland terrain work, and other urban settings.
As for the uncanny valley and plasticness? What mitigates a lot of that is a simple little thing called postwork. I've seen a lot of CGI work out there where the creator was just to damn lazy to do it...and it shows....It's one of the things that cause what my wife calls "Plastic People Syndrome" The other thing that mitigates the unnaturalness that people notice a lot is another simple thing:
Movement. Every frame something moves...whether it is a slight shift in water waves in a background, to a slight turn of a characters head or eyes. People only stand completely still when they are dead. Poser figures must never, ever be totally stationary from frame to frame.
But it takes time and effort...a lot of effort. On average, a three panel comic takes me about 4-6 hours (including post production) now also take into account that I am currently running a daily schedule, it doesn't leave me a lot of time for things like breathing
The one thing that does help is that I am in the business. I train people on CADCAM software as my day gig, which gives me a lot of practice.
In the end, though it's just a tool like any other. It's what you do with it that counts...not the tool itself. Anybody who thinks that hand drawn is automatically better (and I've ran into a number of people who lokk at it that way) should go take a look at some of the pending submissions to Keenspace some time.
On the high end Poser/CGI field you can accomplish things like this
http://uqconnect.net/wasteland/galleryg2_n.html
On the low end, there are any number of examples of things out there that you can point to
Just me thoughts of course...your mileage may vary.
I use it extensively running the gambit from Poser 6, 3d Studio Max, Bryce 5 and 5.5, to Daz Studio.
Do you use it for fun?
Sometimes....
Are Poser comics the new sprite comics?
No.
To those who use poser, do you draw?
Some nowadays...mainly mechanical and drafting style work.
If not, would you use poser if you could draw instead?
Quite honestly? No. The thing is, that the 3d CGI programs are the only medium that I have seen that I can actually use to get the pictures I see inside my head out. It's a tool....nothing more. If I could get what I'm seeing out with a crayon and a stick of charcoal I would use that.
Now some thoughts...
On Poser...
If you are willing to take the time and effort, you can do anything with it. Anything
The problem is, that most of the people who are using it are just using it out of the box. They aren't making their own textures, they aren't building their own models and landscapes. They aren't trying to individualize the result in any way.
Lighting is no longer a problem if you are willing to make the effort at it either...especially with Image Based Lighting and Subsurface Scatterring that is now available in Poser 6.
Poser models offer plenty of control...each Poser model can be hand edited within Notepad to custom define the parameters you are dealing with. How much control you you have is dependent on you, it isn't just moving sliders back and forth (of course a lot of people use it that way.)
As for building your own models? I do a lot of that...but then again I also mix in third party content as well. It depends on the mood and what's necessary for the piece. I'd say it runs about 50/50 for indoor work....90(my own builds)/10 (3rd party) for outdoor work, like cityscapes, woordland terrain work, and other urban settings.
As for the uncanny valley and plasticness? What mitigates a lot of that is a simple little thing called postwork. I've seen a lot of CGI work out there where the creator was just to damn lazy to do it...and it shows....It's one of the things that cause what my wife calls "Plastic People Syndrome" The other thing that mitigates the unnaturalness that people notice a lot is another simple thing:
Movement. Every frame something moves...whether it is a slight shift in water waves in a background, to a slight turn of a characters head or eyes. People only stand completely still when they are dead. Poser figures must never, ever be totally stationary from frame to frame.
But it takes time and effort...a lot of effort. On average, a three panel comic takes me about 4-6 hours (including post production) now also take into account that I am currently running a daily schedule, it doesn't leave me a lot of time for things like breathing
The one thing that does help is that I am in the business. I train people on CADCAM software as my day gig, which gives me a lot of practice.
In the end, though it's just a tool like any other. It's what you do with it that counts...not the tool itself. Anybody who thinks that hand drawn is automatically better (and I've ran into a number of people who lokk at it that way) should go take a look at some of the pending submissions to Keenspace some time.
On the high end Poser/CGI field you can accomplish things like this
http://uqconnect.net/wasteland/galleryg2_n.html
On the low end, there are any number of examples of things out there that you can point to
Just me thoughts of course...your mileage may vary.
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Kisai
- Goddess of Light
- Posts: 3276
- Joined: Fri Jan 01, 1999 4:00 pm
- Location: The Past, the Present, The future
- Contact:
wrote this hours ago, but then the net dropped...
The stock stuff that comes with poser I can spot instantly. Nothing wrong with that except when the person doesn't know how to use it.
Unless someone physically owns a license to use the program (Wether it's poser or somerthing else), they should not be distributing anything they make with it, otherwise they may be called on it. Moreso with 3D programs because there are only a handful of 3D programs, and they all have their own formats, so youcan't say "Uhhh I did this in Blender" when it was done in 3D studio Max, even if you convert a mesh from one program to another, something is lost.
A Photographic reference is a good thing for 3D.
For example...
http://www.daz3d.com/3d_art_resource/in ... _aiko3.php
compare with DIY
http://www.comet-cartoons.com/3dhelp.php
er looks like he zipped the tutorial
http://www.comet-cartoons.com/3ddocs/fa ... eling.html I belive is the one I wanted...
Anyways, one of the tutorials is for face, the other is for body, for 3DS MAX, but I was able to adapt it to Blender no problem. Point being that if you roll your own stuff, it looks unique (even if you used the same tutorial or photographic reference as someone else), but when you use stock stuff from poser and don't do any post-processing... then all 3D comics would look the same.
There was one 3D comic (Don't know if it's still on CG) that was clearly and obviously made in poser (version 3 or 4 at the time), it looked very plastic and the faces never moved.
I seriously doubt most people on CG would plonk down 500$+ for any 3D program considering that the free stuff does work just as well, just requires more effort (Blender+POVRAY ~= Poser+Bryce ~= Maya ~=3D Studio Max ~= Lightwave 3D)
I attended a convention where the local animation school (and then marketed to days later) featuring 3D animation. One was for games and one was for Movies. The guy doing the one for the movies did scenes from the Muppets in Oz which came out recently, showed how real life characters are composited against 3D backgrounds and stuff. Then the other one (which was a bit more entertaining) was a guy who worked for the company that released Bubble Bobble (he had a beta NES cartridge to demo) and explained how to get into games.
What was in common:
"Be prepared to work long hours and lots of overtime"
What was different:
3D in movies guy - Maya
3D in games guy -3D Studio Max
So that's what they teach at the Art school here. Oh, and apparently the game engine taught is some derivative of the UnReal engine IIRC.
Again my point is that I'd like people not to use Poser (a lot of people just pirate anything they damn well please) to make comics if they are doing it only because they are too lazy to draw or make their own stuff. 3D comics are the new sprite comics if that is the case. The thing is the amount of effort required to do a 3D comic is a lot more than that MS Paint trash that sprite-rip comic authors put out.Maxim Kovalenko wrote:Do you use poser for your comic?
I use it extensively running the gambit from Poser 6, 3d Studio Max, Bryce 5 and 5.5, to Daz Studio.
Do you use it for fun?
Sometimes....:)
Are Poser comics the new sprite comics?
No.
The stock stuff that comes with poser I can spot instantly. Nothing wrong with that except when the person doesn't know how to use it.
Unless someone physically owns a license to use the program (Wether it's poser or somerthing else), they should not be distributing anything they make with it, otherwise they may be called on it. Moreso with 3D programs because there are only a handful of 3D programs, and they all have their own formats, so youcan't say "Uhhh I did this in Blender" when it was done in 3D studio Max, even if you convert a mesh from one program to another, something is lost.
A Photographic reference is a good thing for 3D.
For example...
http://www.daz3d.com/3d_art_resource/in ... _aiko3.php
compare with DIY
http://www.comet-cartoons.com/3dhelp.php
er looks like he zipped the tutorial
http://www.comet-cartoons.com/3ddocs/fa ... eling.html I belive is the one I wanted...
Anyways, one of the tutorials is for face, the other is for body, for 3DS MAX, but I was able to adapt it to Blender no problem. Point being that if you roll your own stuff, it looks unique (even if you used the same tutorial or photographic reference as someone else), but when you use stock stuff from poser and don't do any post-processing... then all 3D comics would look the same.
There was one 3D comic (Don't know if it's still on CG) that was clearly and obviously made in poser (version 3 or 4 at the time), it looked very plastic and the faces never moved.
I seriously doubt most people on CG would plonk down 500$+ for any 3D program considering that the free stuff does work just as well, just requires more effort (Blender+POVRAY ~= Poser+Bryce ~= Maya ~=3D Studio Max ~= Lightwave 3D)
I attended a convention where the local animation school (and then marketed to days later) featuring 3D animation. One was for games and one was for Movies. The guy doing the one for the movies did scenes from the Muppets in Oz which came out recently, showed how real life characters are composited against 3D backgrounds and stuff. Then the other one (which was a bit more entertaining) was a guy who worked for the company that released Bubble Bobble (he had a beta NES cartridge to demo) and explained how to get into games.
What was in common:
"Be prepared to work long hours and lots of overtime"
What was different:
3D in movies guy - Maya
3D in games guy -3D Studio Max
So that's what they teach at the Art school here. Oh, and apparently the game engine taught is some derivative of the UnReal engine IIRC.
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Maxim Kovalenko
- Regular Poster
- Posts: 70
- Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 10:03 pm
- Contact:
Again my point is that I'd like people not to use Poser (a lot of people just pirate anything they damn well please) to make comics if they are doing it only because they are too lazy to draw or make their own stuff. 3D comics are the new sprite comics if that is the case. The thing is the amount of effort required to do a 3D comic is a lot more than that MS Paint trash that sprite-rip comic authors put out.
Agreed. Piracy urks the heck out of me, honestly. The amount of money I have spent on this stuff is rather painful to contemplate for me. Prices have went down on some things since I initially purchased them. (Bryce especially, I bought it when it was still under the Corel imprint at around $300...now it is about $80
).
Unless someone physically owns a license to use the program (Wether it's poser or somerthing else), they should not be distributing anything they make with it, otherwise they may be called on it. Moreso with 3D programs because there are only a handful of 3D programs, and they all have their own formats, so youcan't say "Uhhh I did this in Blender" when it was done in 3D studio Max, even if you convert a mesh from one program to another, something is lost.
Exactly, in addition to there being a handful of 3D programs, the customer base is limited as well. People tend to notice when you cop things.
A Photographic reference is a good thing for 3D.
Heck yes...my job has me travelling on a pretty regular basis, I'm always running around with a digital camera when I'm on the road scouting out locations and the like.
Oh, and apparently the game engine taught is some derivative of the UnReal engine IIRC.[/quote]
Very sweet...one of the things that I have been looking into has been the HL2 engine, and trying to figure out a way to somehow adapt it for 3d Rendering work.
Agreed. Piracy urks the heck out of me, honestly. The amount of money I have spent on this stuff is rather painful to contemplate for me. Prices have went down on some things since I initially purchased them. (Bryce especially, I bought it when it was still under the Corel imprint at around $300...now it is about $80
).Unless someone physically owns a license to use the program (Wether it's poser or somerthing else), they should not be distributing anything they make with it, otherwise they may be called on it. Moreso with 3D programs because there are only a handful of 3D programs, and they all have their own formats, so youcan't say "Uhhh I did this in Blender" when it was done in 3D studio Max, even if you convert a mesh from one program to another, something is lost.
Exactly, in addition to there being a handful of 3D programs, the customer base is limited as well. People tend to notice when you cop things.
A Photographic reference is a good thing for 3D.
Heck yes...my job has me travelling on a pretty regular basis, I'm always running around with a digital camera when I'm on the road scouting out locations and the like.
Oh, and apparently the game engine taught is some derivative of the UnReal engine IIRC.[/quote]
Very sweet...one of the things that I have been looking into has been the HL2 engine, and trying to figure out a way to somehow adapt it for 3d Rendering work.
I use poser on my comic, basicly because I can not draw to a standard that I am happy with. I've been wanting to do a comic ever since I was a child and today's technology finaly alows me to do so. I'm still rather new at the program and haven't mastered making my own textures as of yet much less my own models but I think it's really only matter of time and practice.
