So, KeenSPACE is getting a name change on Monday.

[McDuffies]

Yep. And check out how many people you'll use when WCN gets launched. Chris, tell me that you're not even a bit concearned about all this and I'll call you a liar.

[Scrubbo]

Well let's wait for a bit and see what's the response to that is first.

Honestly I don't buy the 'arrogant Spotters trampling uppity Spacers' theory one bit , but lack of communication, on the other hand...

Nate is notoriously bad at the speedy delivery of responses. He's no Mr. McFeeley. He's very busy with his actual job (remember, none of the keen four get paid a thin dime (as far as I know) and have to work day jobs themselves) and responds slowly to keenspotters as well.

Also, he's the driving force behind the keen syndication thing going on.

However, that's a seperate issue from the name change.

[Scrubbo]

Yep. And check out how many people you'll use when WCN gets launched. Chris, tell me that you're not even a bit concearned about all this and I'll call you a liar.

Honestly, I bet he isn't very concerned about it. I think WCN is a cool idea (I thought KeenPrime was too!) and I hope it finally gets off the ground. If every single keenspacer moved there, it would be sad. But as long as you guys liked it and were doing well there, who would blame you? And I'd cheer you on!

[RemusShepherd]

The point I'm trying to make is that the name change wasn't meant to be a jerk move.

I could be wrong here, but I don't see what you're doing as any kind of real problem. What I see as one of the essential problems is how you do it.

We learned of the name change by reading comments on a webblog. Our admin was informed a week before the rollout. And there seems to be no public discussion about why Space is changing its name and not Spot.

It strikes me that you four (I'm still not sure who 'The Four' are. Can you each please represent yourselves as one of the horsemen of the apocalypse? That would help me remember. Thanks.) are good business people. You make good business decisions -- do this to increase that, etc. But you're lousy at working with people...and it's the people who will determine whether your business plans succeed or fail.

I didn't think it was possible for a four-person corporation to get a reputation for being faceless and dehumanizing, but that's exactly what it seems you have done.

You need to improve your PR with the public and your communication with your employees. (We could argue about whether Keenspacers fall into either the public category or the employee category. Either way, you have to touch base with them somehow.)

All In My Humble Newbie Busybody Opinion.

[Scrubbo]

The point I'm trying to make is that the name change wasn't meant to be a jerk move.

I could be wrong here, but I don't see what you're doing as any kind of real problem. What I see as one of the essential problems is how you do it.

We learned of the name change by reading comments on a webblog. Our admin was informed a week before the rollout. And there seems to be no public discussion about why Space is changing its name and not Spot.

Um, the name change was discussed on the keenspace forum months ago. It was said that it was very likely to occure and many suggestions were given, tabulated, and passed on. It's not sudden.

Yes, Chris prolly shouldn't have mentioned that the announcement was coming soon in websnark's webblog. He was excited, I guess. Don't hate him for loving comics!

Once they finally got the keenfour to agree on changing the name and what name it would be, the when came up. I have no idea on the timeline of that, but it seems nice to do it on an 'anniversary' type date. Which is tragically close. But I bet that's why it got picked.

As to why keenspace gets changed and not keenspot, I actually talked a little about that so you guys would have a little more info. I was on keenspace and I know how I liked to hear about what was going on. That is kind of a distillation of what I saw in the conversations in the Keenspot board. It's a purely business decision. Keenspot is the major portion of the keen* business, so it keeps the already worked on brand. Keenspace gets a new brand.

It strikes me that you four (I'm still not sure who 'The Four' are. Can you each please represent yourselves as one of the horsemen of the apocalypse? That would help me remember. Thanks.) are good business people. You make good business decisions -- do this to increase that, etc. But you're lousy at working with people...and it's the people who will determine whether your business plans succeed or fail.

Chris Crosby
Teri Crosby
Nate Stone
Gav

They don't get paid. They don't have money to hire a PR guy, or an HR guy. You get to deal with humans and all their foilables. Yah, it'd be nice to have official reps to talk to, but it ain't gonna happen.

And believe you me, the keenspotters like to pound on the owners about better communication too. It's not all rainbows and puppies for the artists.

I didn't think it was possible for a four-person corporation to get a reputation for being faceless and dehumanizing, but that's exactly what it seems you have done.

No, it's more that those four people have very full schedules and since everything goes through all FOUR of them, it sometimes takes awhile for them to get stuff nailed down. It's an overfaced committee, not a faceless organization.

You need to improve your PR with the public and your communication with your employees. (We could argue about whether Keenspacers fall into either the public category or the employee category. Either way, you have to touch base with them somehow.)

All In My Humble Newbie Busybody Opinion.

It's been said to them before, and it will be said to them again. Chris usually takes the flack because he's the most prominant poster of news. So make sure to give him a pat on the head before biting his ass. He needs love too!

[Phalanx]

Erm, Remus... We had all that discussion already since last year, but that was before you joined so you missed it. The original thread is somewhere here and the other half is somewhere in the Keenspot boards ("If you could rename Keenspace, what would you rename it as?")

And there was also a report on the impending name change on the newsletter (and Comixpedia) a month or two ago.

It wasn't exactly out of the blue, but we thought they had forgotten all about it.

I just wish I had remembered to submit "Space Comics" to the list of names we suggested though.

I think that's one of the reasons they asked for suggestions from you guys.

Actually, it was "allowed us to submit suggestions", but I appreciate the gesture all the same.

[RPin]

Yep. And check out how many people you'll use when WCN gets launched. Chris, tell me that you're not even a bit concearned about all this and I'll call you a liar.

Honestly, I bet he isn't very concerned about it. I think WCN is a cool idea (I thought KeenPrime was too!) and I hope it finally gets off the ground. If every single keenspacer moved there, it would be sad. But as long as you guys liked it and were doing well there, who would blame you? And I'd cheer you on!

Well, Manley said several times it wasn't his goal to drive other comic companies out of business. WCN will sure shake things a bit for Space, but that is going to be a good thing, since no other company holds a real threat to the Space monopoly. Maybe it'll provoke changes just like this leaving of Spotters is doing now.

Also, post this fabulous pic I keep hearing about. It's quite the internet legend already.

[McDuffies]

Yep. And check out how many people you'll use when WCN gets launched. Chris, tell me that you're not even a bit concearned about all this and I'll call you a liar.

Honestly, I bet he isn't very concerned about it. I think WCN is a cool idea (I thought KeenPrime was too!) and I hope it finally gets off the ground. If every single keenspacer moved there, it would be sad. But as long as you guys liked it and were doing well there, who would blame you? And I'd cheer you on!

Meh, I just think that leaving of some Spotters, combined with leaving of one 'Space admin and leaving of who-knows-how-many popular 'Spacers for WCN, is a reason for concern. It's an obvious sign that they are doing something wrong and, even if consequences aren't disastrous (which is hard to believe - after all, it's hard to believe that one admin can maintain the entire 'Space, and even that admin is on the edge of her nerves - if 'Space becames as unstable as it was three years ago, that will be a start of disaster) there will be consequences.
Sadly, really. You probably know that I'm saying all this because I'd be sorry if Keenspot flunked or something.

[Rkolter]

I'm willing to accept that the Fab Four do not draw a salary from Keenspot Entertainment. Maybe. But even if that is true, please do not be fooled into thinking that they are poor, destitute workers who just love comics so much that they put all their money into a company that loses money every year.

Keenspot Entertainment makes money. It's owned by the Fab Four. Whether that money goes into their wallets or into new servers, the effect is the same - Keenspot Entertainment raises the net worth of each of the Fab Four.

There's no shame in making money, and the name change is a reasonable business decision. In the long run, the question becomes - will they lose more money via defecting spotters (and thus eyeballs for the ads they sell) than they gain by splitting their brand into two distinct brands?

[Phalanx]

Nate is notoriously bad at the speedy delivery of responses. He's no Mr. McFeeley. He's very busy with his actual job (remember, none of the keen four get paid a thin dime (as far as I know) and have to work day jobs themselves) and responds slowly to keenspotters as well.

Oh, I'm quite aware of that. Hell, even I respond slowly to things myself. But there are limits to how much a person can take, which was probably what happened in this case.

Naturally it's important to remember it's in 'Space's interest for Keenspot to do well as well.

[Scrubbo]

I'm willing to accept that the Fab Four do not draw a salary from Keenspot Entertainment. Maybe. But even if that is true, please do not be fooled into thinking that they are poor, destitute workers who just love comics so much that they put all their money into a company that loses money every year.

Keenspot Entertainment makes money. It's owned by the Fab Four. Whether that money goes into their wallets or into new servers, the effect is the same - Keenspot Entertainment raises the net worth of each of the Fab Four.

The point I was making is that Keenspot isn't their means of support. I'm sure it's something they'd all love to be able to have as a 'full time job' just as most of us would love to have comicing as a full time job. Because of that, there are large tracts of time taken up by Gav and Nate doing regular jobs. Add Keenspot and that's two jobs. Add a comic, and Gav is doing three jobs!

That shows a lot of dedication.

Also, it's common knowledge that Keenspot wasn't paying artists anything for quite awhile after the bubble burst. And it wasn't because the keenspot four were rolling around in piles of money and squealing like pigs. The dot com bubble burst was hard on online entertainment. Ad rates dropped through the floor. They're coming back up, and Keenspot is once again able to pay its artists. I would expect to see Keenspot doing more for itself in the near future now that things are looking less grim for the online entertainment industry.

There's no shame in making money, and the name change is a reasonable business decision. In the long run, the question becomes - will they lose more money via defecting spotters (and thus eyeballs for the ads they sell) than they gain by splitting their brand into two distinct brands?

This name change is unlikely to result in any spotters leaving. It's quite likely a few keenspacers will leave because of this. I know it was discussed as a concern. A lot of times you have to do things that hurt in the short term in order to make things better in the long run.

[RemusShepherd]

And there seems to be no public discussion about why Space is changing its name and not Spot.

Um, the name change was discussed on the keenspace forum months ago. It was said that it was very likely to occure and many suggestions were given, tabulated, and passed on. It's not sudden.

I saw just the tail end of that discussion, but it seemed to be asking the question, 'What should Keenspace change its name to?', not 'Which one should change, Space or Spot?' Was there public discussion about which one should change, and why? If so, I completely missed that, sorry. That one would be my fault.

Yes, Chris prolly shouldn't have mentioned that the announcement was coming soon in websnark's webblog. He was excited, I guess. Don't hate him for loving comics!

I don't hate anyone, Scrubbo. Well, except for all those dirty motherfrs out there with the gall to have more talent than I do.

This was a bad PR screwup. It is causing repercussions. Don't hate Spacers for getting uppity when -- by accident -- you have pushed our buttons in just the wrong ways.

As to why keenspace gets changed and not keenspot, I actually talked a little about that so you guys would have a little more info. I was on keenspace and I know how I liked to hear about what was going on. That is kind of a distillation of what I saw in the conversations in the Keenspot board.

I've poked around the Keenspot boards, and from what I can tell that unless you're a premium member there's only a General Forum. And it isn't used very much. (Only 11 active threads in the past week.) Is there another forum I don't know about that I should be reading in order to keep track of what's happening to my site on Keenspace? *Should* Keenspacers be required to read Keenspot forums to stay up with current events?

Chris Crosby
Teri Crosby
Nate Stone
Gav

Those are not names I can associate with the horsemen of the apocalypse. Therefore I will remember you all as 'Scarecrow', 'Dorothy', 'Tin Man', and 'The Cowardly Lion'. Just in my head, as a mnemonic device, you understand.

And believe you me, the keenspotters like to pound on the owners about better communication too. It's not all rainbows and puppies for the artists.

Oh, I know. I'm sure they've been having a bad time these last few weeks. I don't want to cause them any more problems. It's just that I don't know what's going on but I can tell it isn't good because I just lost one of my admins. Like a scared puppy, I whine until I'm soothed with scraps of information. The thing is, this is the internet, and my 'whine' here is known as 'word of mouth', and it can damage the reputation and business of Keen-*. This, incidentally, is why you need to have good communications with every puppy in your employ.

It's been said to them before, and it will be said to them again. Chris usually takes the flack because he's the most prominant poster of news. So make sure to give him a pat on the head before biting his ass. He needs love too!

I'm sure he does. Now let me ask you something. You said he was the most prominant poster. Where, exactly, is he posting?

I never *heard* of any of you before. Until this flap hit you haven't posted here, in the Spacer forums, for at least the last four months that I've been here. I'm also reminded about someone else's post in this thread, who claims that no Spotter has ever offered any advice in the Tips or Review forums. I'm not saying anyone should be obligated to do so...but day-am, it looks like Spotters want *nothing* to do with us. To the point that you're reportedly making announcements involving the future of my site in places that I don't know where to look. And you're keeping my admins just as much in the dark.

("There's no use complaining, Mr Dent. The plans have been on display in the local planning office for the last nine months."

"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."

"That's the display department."

"With a torch."

"Ah, well the lights had probably gone."

"So had the stairs."

"But look, you found the notice didn't you?"

"Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying Beware of the Leopard." )

You can't communicate with people if they don't know you exist. Just a suggestion.

All that said, I'm away from the internet until Sunday. Going to Minneapolis to see Star Wars with my girlfriend. Thanks for your efforts, Scrubbo. I'm sure you'll all have this sorted out by the time I'm back.

[Scrubbo]

And there seems to be no public discussion about why Space is changing its name and not Spot.

Um, the name change was discussed on the keenspace forum months ago. It was said that it was very likely to occure and many suggestions were given, tabulated, and passed on. It's not sudden.

I saw just the tail end of that discussion, but it seemed to be asking the question, 'What should Keenspace change its name to?', not 'Which one should change, Space or Spot?' Was there public discussion about which one should change, and why? If so, I completely missed that, sorry. That one would be my fault.

There was no discussion with the keenspacers about if keenspot or keenspace names should be changed. That would have been wildly inappropriate. Walmart does not ask it's employees, customers, and minority stockholders to participate in its overall strategy. Business decisions that affect the whole company must be made at the top level. Keenspot didn't have to discuss with any of us keenspot artists about anything, really. And we'd be free to take our comic elsewhere. They try to let us know about things and talk some of them over before THEY make the decision because they are generally nice people and also know that we are likelier to be happy with the decisions if we've had a chance to make our voices known.

Given that Keenspot is the majority of keen business and the main focus of their business, it's really obvious that Spot had to keep the branding that existed and Space needed the rebranding. Deciding they needed the rebranding as part of the 'professionalism' makeover was their decision, and one that was supported by a lot of keenspot artists. Including me. (And I originally didn't like the idea because I WAS a keenspacer and wouldn't have liked it being done to me, even if I understood why it was done.)

Yes, Chris prolly shouldn't have mentioned that the announcement was coming soon in websnark's webblog. He was excited, I guess. Don't hate him for loving comics!

I don't hate anyone, Scrubbo. Well, except for all those dirty motherfrs out there with the gall to have more talent than I do.

This was a bad PR screwup. It is causing repercussions. Don't hate Spacers for getting uppity when -- by accident -- you have pushed our buttons in just the wrong ways.

I know it was a PR screwup. Chris even told US not to mention it until the announcement was officially made. That's one of the reasons I came over to the thread to post in it. I didn't want you guys to think Keenspot artists were crapping on you. Having been the recipient of four years of keenspace crapping on by the web in general, I know how it feels.

(Incidentally, I was on keenspace BEFORE it was cool to crap on it! Ah, the heady days of yore!)

As to why keenspace gets changed and not keenspot, I actually talked a little about that so you guys would have a little more info. I was on keenspace and I know how I liked to hear about what was going on. That is kind of a distillation of what I saw in the conversations in the Keenspot board.

I've poked around the Keenspot boards, and from what I can tell that unless you're a premium member there's only a General Forum. And it isn't used very much. (Only 11 active threads in the past week.) Is there another forum I don't know about that I should be reading in order to keep track of what's happening to my site on Keenspace? *Should* Keenspacers be required to read Keenspot forums to stay up with current events?

It was discussed in a private forum where only current keenspot members can read and post. Business decisions should never be carried out in a public forum. Occasionally those things get leaked, which is never a good thing for anybody involved. Me TALKING to you about what was discussed could be considered a leak, I suppose, but I'm not reporting exactly who said what, but rather trying to give you guys an overall view of what the business decision was and why it was made because it affects you all. It would have been MUCH better for it all to come out at once in an official announcement from Crosby and Co. Anything _I_ say is unofficial opinion of one guy who draws a crummy comic. But I hope it at least helps you guys a little to have an insider view on the why and the how.

Chris Crosby
Teri Crosby
Nate Stone
Gav

Those are not names I can associate with the horsemen of the apocalypse. Therefore I will remember you all as 'Scarecrow', 'Dorothy', 'Tin Man', and 'The Cowardly Lion'. Just in my head, as a mnemonic device, you understand.

I vote Nate for Tin Man, Chris for Cowardly Lion, Teri for Scarecrow, and Gav for Dorothy. He's the only one who could pull of the pigtails.

And believe you me, the keenspotters like to pound on the owners about better communication too. It's not all rainbows and puppies for the artists.

Oh, I know. I'm sure they've been having a bad time these last few weeks. I don't want to cause them any more problems. It's just that I don't know what's going on but I can tell it isn't good because I just lost one of my admins. Like a scared puppy, I whine until I'm soothed with scraps of information. The thing is, this is the internet, and my 'whine' here is known as 'word of mouth', and it can damage the reputation and business of Keen-*. This, incidentally, is why you need to have good communications with every puppy in your employ.

I be TRYING to sooth, yo! Accept your strokes!

It's been said to them before, and it will be said to them again. Chris usually takes the flack because he's the most prominant poster of news. So make sure to give him a pat on the head before biting his ass. He needs love too!

I'm sure he does. Now let me ask you something. You said he was the most prominant poster. Where, exactly, is he posting?

I never *heard* of any of you before. Until this flap hit you haven't posted here, in the Spacer forums, for at least the last four months that I've been here. I'm also reminded about someone else's post in this thread, who claims that no Spotter has ever offered any advice in the Tips or Review forums. I'm not saying anyone should be obligated to do so...but day-am, it looks like Spotters want *nothing* to do with us. To the point that you're reportedly making announcements involving the future of my site in places that I don't know where to look. And you're keeping my admins just as much in the dark.

I'm not doing anything! I'm just a lowly artist! As for Chris, he posted in this thread. He posts announcements to Comixpedia. He posts announcements in the Keenspot General forum. I WOULD suggest looking at the keenspot general forum and check the announcements from time to time, really.

As for keenspotters reading the keenspace forums : I quit reading them while I was on keenspace. I couldn't keep up with them. The post rate is staggering! But often when something like THIS thread comes up, keenspotters will definately come in and at least comment on the situation.

Generally, requests for critiques and reviews on the keenspot boards get at least SOME response from keenspotters.

If you want to know how _I_ made it on to keenspot I will tell you :
I drew a comic for almost 5 years, updating daily for 3 years, and updating 3-5 days a week for the rest of it with usually only one break a year. I made friends with other cartoonists and we cheered eachother on! Then I quit caring if I got on Keenspot and started planning on moving to my own hosting server. THen out of the blue (of Gav's hair) I got invited. I didn't tell keenspot I was leaving keenspace. I hadn't submitted an application in YEARS. I was suprised. I thought about NOT accepting after I'd just geared myself up to go completely indy, but decided in the end that the convienance, comradary, and ugly red and yellow logo was too much to resist. Sadly the logo went.

All that said, I'm away from the internet until Sunday. Going to Minneapolis to see Star Wars with my girlfriend. Thanks for your efforts, Scrubbo. I'm sure you'll all have this sorted out by the time I'm back.

The only thing that will be sorted out IS MY MOTHER!

Wait, I think I said that wrong.

[Scrubbo]

As for keenspotters reading the keenspace forums : I quit reading them while I was on keenspace. I couldn't keep up with them. The post rate is staggering! But often when something like THIS thread comes up, keenspotters will definately come in and at least comment on the situation.

Whoa, it HAS been awhile since I've been here. My sig had no current comics in it, and I don't recognize ANY of the labels for post counts anymore! I used to know them! I'M SO CONFUSED! AHHHHHH! Infamous Senior Forum Denizen? WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?

[Warren]

It means you're old, dude. Old as the hills.

[Col]

Oy.

While I think it's wrong the way they've treated Kelly and Kisai in all this, since they're getting stuck with the work, and not even getting a say in the matter, I gotta say that these other arguments aren't worth it.

They're changing the f-ing name. Big whoop. I'll complain about it all being unfair when they limit our bandwidth, or drop our forums, or just close down Keenspace completely. A month to two months from now, and especially a year from now, no one's going to care that this place is no longer called Keenspace. Hell, I hope the name is shorter. I always thought keenspace was kind of a long-winded name to throw in between my comic title and ".com".

[STrRedWolf]

Nate is notoriously bad at the speedy delivery of responses. He's no Mr. McFeeley. He's very busy with his actual job (remember, none of the keen four get paid a thin dime (as far as I know) and have to work day jobs themselves) and responds slowly to keenspotters as well.

Also, he's the driving force behind the keen syndication thing going on.

However, that's a seperate issue from the name change.

You've hit the problem on the head.

[Scrubbo]

It means you're old, dude. Old as the hills.

Damn whippersnappers!

Actually, I think you're older than me, physically, aren't you? I'm only 30! ONLY! QUIT LAUGHING! DAMN WHIPPERSNAPPERS!

(Is the thread derailed? Can we all go back to playing with puppies and eating cookies?)

[TheSuburbanLetdown]

Whoa, it HAS been awhile since I've been here. My sig had no current comics in it, and I don't recognize ANY of the labels for post counts anymore! I used to know them! I'M SO CONFUSED! AHHHHHH! Infamous Senior Forum Denizen? WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?

The titles for post counts just changed recently. I don't know what they were when you were here, but they were the military rankings a few months ago, like commander and such.

[Warren]

Actually, I think you're older than me, physically, aren't you? I'm only 30! ONLY! QUIT LAUGHING! DAMN WHIPPERSNAPPERS!

(Is the thread derailed? Can we all go back to playing with puppies and eating cookies?)

Maybe I am older.

*goes back to eating puppies and playing with cookies*