Death Panels for All! The health care thread

[McDuffies]

Sorry Dave, but religion may have a part to play in all this.

I mean, this is from an outsider's point of view, but the states seems to be rather obsessed about religion in the upper spheres of the government. Just look at the troubles you guys make about what church Obama goes to. Seriously, don't you guys have, you know, an economy to rebuild? Lowering your level of comsumption of the world's ressources to a reasonnable level? (Seriously guys, try to plant a tree, alright?)A reputation to bring back to life? A level of analphabetism to lower below the 40% ? Stop worrying about your leader's personnal belief and actually help him work on making your country better.

And it's not even that others are atheists or something. Noone can convince me that in USA religion plays more important part than in, say, Spain or Italy. But somehow they always let religion affect their everyday life more, in that medieval, backward, "clock mechanism is work of the devil" way... I dunno, does it have something with being Protestant? I'm led to believe that most of protestant fractions are more fundamental than Catholics, but I'm not sure about actual numbers.

[Ahaugen]

You're all a bunch of damn commies! 30 years ago you'd all get the chair!

I go out to the woods for 5 days, only to come back and find I've missed delicious delicious flame bait.

[Guildmaster Van]

And it's not even that others are atheists or something. Noone can convince me that in USA religion plays more important part than in, say, Spain or Italy.

Sure, pick the countries from the Vatican's doorstep

But no, I still say USA has it the worst when it comes to religious influence. Yes, the Catholics dominate Spain and Italy, but the countries aren't littered with little loudmouth evangelist cults here and there. America and Protestantism is the worst thing to happen to Christianity in 1700 years. I haven't been following theology around in recent years as I once did, but it seems to me that the States still tops the charts on the number of Christian denominations, especially on the number that are completely intolerable douchebags (Ironic, I know, coming from me).

Mormons, African tribal magic inspired Baptists, snake handlers, and every variation of Branch Davidian ideologies you could think of - America is a cesspool of self-righteous heretics, but that's just me pissing on Christianity. What about how malicious cults like Scientology influence municipal office, taking over entire towns? What about the auto-defensive mode of Jewish zealots who consider any shot at Israel a shot at Semites? No, religion in America plays a more important role than Spain or Italy because Theists in America are considerably more whiny so they bitch and moan and cause shitstorms until they get what they want.

And then there's the Westboro Baptist Church.

I personally believe "freedom of religion" actually means "freedom from religion".

[Kevin R Brown]

As an employee of the federal government, you may want to watch just WHO you call a "damn commie" you treasonous pinko sympathizing dirty hippie lowlife!!!

You want to talk strange healthcare? I get virtually everything free, a la Uncle Sam. Every deploying Soldier is issued goggles, what with there apparently being sand in Iraq and wind which doth blow it around into storms. Well, I need prescription inserts for mine.

Optometry at Landstuhl clinic insists that my brand of goggles are exactly like another company's brand. As a student of capitalism, and someone who's not a complete moron, I beg to differ. Lo and behold, wrong pair of inserts are delivered to me. I decide to try optometry right here in Iraq seeing as they make them on the spot. They make them, I'm happy, and am informed that the attachment for the goggles is not something they carry. I've got to get it through my unit supply sergeant, who'd have to order somewhere in the vicinity of 25 of the bastards. Ain't happening.

So Optometry doesn't carry eyewear related parts that I need. Is that not just delightful? This is what happens when shit gets contracted out!!!!

Govt health care = good. Contractors = bad. True story.

While we're on this subject, we could also talk about Blackwater.

[Killbert-Robby]

And it's not even that others are atheists or something. Noone can convince me that in USA religion plays more important part than in, say, Spain or Italy.

Sure, pick the countries from the Vatican's doorstep

But no, I still say USA has it the worst when it comes to religious influence. Yes, the Catholics dominate Spain and Italy, but the countries aren't littered with little loudmouth evangelist cults here and there. America and Protestantism is the worst thing to happen to Christianity in 1700 years. I haven't been following theology around in recent years as I once did, but it seems to me that the States still tops the charts on the number of Christian denominations, especially on the number that are completely intolerable douchebags (Ironic, I know, coming from me).

Mormons, African tribal magic inspired Baptists, snake handlers, and every variation of Branch Davidian ideologies you could think of - America is a cesspool of self-righteous heretics, but that's just me pissing on Christianity. What about how malicious cults like Scientology influence municipal office, taking over entire towns? What about the auto-defensive mode of Jewish zealots who consider any shot at Israel a shot at Semites? No, religion in America plays a more important role than Spain or Italy because Theists in America are considerably more whiny so they bitch and moan and cause shitstorms until they get what they want.

And then there's the Westboro Baptist Church.

I personally believe "freedom of religion" actually means "freedom from religion".

You know, that always makes me think. Places like Italy, well, Italy was the birthplace of modern catholicism. People in Italy and Spain put pictures of Jesus around their house, but you wont find one Jesus-bobblehead, they have such a deep knowledge of Christianity that they don't even pray to God directly, but know which Saints to ask for what and when. Its more of an actual deeply ingrained knowledge of the religion, I mean like a lifetime of studying the Bible and reading all it has to say, and they seem so much... calmer. They have the same beliefs, but they're more passive and reserved about them. Whereas in places like the States, it seems they only memorize the passages they can use to put other people down and just go around yelling JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSs a lot. And yet if you asked an American Christian if he though Christianity was more important in Italy or America, I don't think I even need to tell you what he'd say.

[Lisket]

I think the praying to Saints is less a deeper understanding of Christianity, and more a retention of Pagan habits.

[Killbert-Robby]

I think the praying to Saints is less a deeper understanding of Christianity, and more a retention of Pagan habits.

What do you call all of Christianity? Ok *all* is a stretch, but a lot of paganism rubbed off on Christianity. And considering that paganism had an impact on Christianity from the get-go, surely Christianity with a pagan aftertaste is Christianity "classic", and Christianity with "God bless a country that didn't even exist in the time this religion was founded" is a later mutation that doesn't resemble the real original much, leaving a terrible taste in your mouth, just like comparing Fanta and Fanta Cream Soda

[Lisket]

I think the praying to Saints is less a deeper understanding of Christianity, and more a retention of Pagan habits.

What do you call all of Christianity? Ok *all* is a stretch, but a lot of paganism rubbed off on Christianity. And considering that paganism had an impact on Christianity from the get-go, surely Christianity with a pagan aftertaste is Christianity "classic", and Christianity with "God bless a country that didn't even exist in the time this religion was founded" is a later mutation that doesn't resemble the real original much, leaving a terrible taste in your mouth, just like comparing Fanta and Fanta Cream Soda

So there's a couple different ways of looking at it I suppose. The reality of what Christianity is, versus the ideals behind what it's supposed to be. I'm not trying to say one is better than the other.

[McDuffies]

But no, I still say USA has it the worst when it comes to religious influence. Yes, the Catholics dominate Spain and Italy, but the countries aren't littered with little loudmouth evangelist cults here and there. America and Protestantism is the worst thing to happen to Christianity in 1700 years. I haven't been following theology around in recent years as I once did, but it seems to me that the States still tops the charts on the number of Christian denominations, especially on the number that are completely intolerable douchebags (Ironic, I know, coming from me).

I dunno, I've seen quite religious nutcases and cults over here. For a while my friends and I used to go to their meetings and "seminars" so that we could ask "taboo" questions and provoke them, until we started running into real violent nutcases eventually... they certainly could give run for their money to any American nutcases I've heard. But for some reason, USA lets church get more involved into government business, while over here they respectfully ignore most of it.

I think the praying to Saints is less a deeper understanding of Christianity, and more a retention of Pagan habits.

On the other hand I do believe only in religion that is flexible, ready to adapt into different cultures and modernize with times. Sticking strictly, fundamentally to the Bible isn't particularly practical... or rational...

[Dracomax]

I don't think that the US is more influenced by religion; I think that the US is just louder about religion.

This is probably because we have so many contradictory and contrary viewpoints, such that the religious issues never have a chance to settle down. In addition, We have a doctrine of seperation of church and state. The problems with that are twofold: First, since people make up the government, and those people are supposed to accurately reflect their constituents desires in creating laws, it is impossible to ignore religious considerations in the creation of laws. Second, No two people In the US seem able to agree on what exactly seperation of church and state means. The Atheists maintain that no religious viewpoint should be considered and that god should not even be mentioned. the theists maintain that as long as government isn't interfering in religion, or makin laws against religion, then it's okay. the Scientologists want to use the government to get whatever they can.

What these things mean is that any time anyone remotely connected to government interacts with religion, both sides get really, really loud, and the rhetoric flies faster and deeper than any other kind of political bullshit.

As for the president's religion, in gewneral it should not matter. However, if the president has been attending a church where the preacher gives hateful, rascist, and/or anti-american speeches, I think it is only reasonable for US citizens to be cautious. Of course, I would say that if I found that a presideential candidate had been attending any group where the leaders spoke out with similar messages. As this applies to Barrack Obama, I have to admit that HE hasn't shown any signs of beleiving the things his former pastor said, and has distanced himself from said pastor. Therefore, I am caustiously optimistic. as for the accusations that he might be Muslim, I've always said, "so what?"

I like to think that most US citizens judge people by their actions more than their religion. I know it may not be true, but I'd like to beleive it.

[Tellurider]

I really didn't mean to start this whole religious discussion. I only brought it up because, for example, let's say you have a 16-year-old daughter, and you want to put her on birth control. Most private American insurance companies will let you do that, but if we have a nationalized health care thing going on, will there be some thing where birth control isn't covered if you're under 18, because people under 18 shouldn't be having sex? This is a bit of a tricky question since legally there's the whole statutory rape thing, but considering the abstinence-only sex ed that we have, I could see people getting upset that birth control for minors was covered by the government. They'd see it as the government condoning underage sex, rather than accepting the reality that teenagers are horny.

This might not come into play since there are other reasons to take birth control besides pregnancy prevention, but since the uber-religious generally have a "no sex before marriage" policy, I worry that the government covering birth control will cause them to riot against the horrible "amorality" of the health care system. Or something.

Same thing with abortion, really. It's a really hot topic in this country, so for the government health care plan to cover ANY kind of abortion whatsoever, even if it's to save the mother's life, seems nearly impossible to accomplish.

I just think that sexual health is really important and should be part of any universal health care system, just as much for pregnancy and STD prevention as for planned parenting and pre-natal health. And the people who are most against the idea of being able to bone whoever you want with no health-related consequences are for the most part basing their views off of their religion - a religion the people who want to bone whoever they want obviously don't share, at least not to such a degree.

[MixedMyth]

we do tend to be a very loud people. I think our volume setting is broken.

Mostly, a lot of what the news covers is sensationalized... the people who are most active tend to be strongly leaning one way or another. And because we have a Democratic president right now, most of the protests are from strongly right-wing people who have been allied with religious fundamentalism here in the US for about 40 years now, maybe a little less. but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are in the majority, either. Honestly, most people are pretty apathetic... or feel differently about different issues, and cannot be easily put into one camp or the other. Which is natural, really. It's why I prefer to look at things on the issue basis rather than simply looking at Republicans versus Democrats.at the same time, however, the Republican party has become much, much more conservative within the last few decades.

As for Protestantism, I don't think that I would say that it is any better or any worse than any other flavor of Christianity. Again, you mostly see the bad side of it on the news because that is what attracts attention. I mean, it's not like Catholicism doesn't have a checkered past either. The fact is religion, no matter what religion it is, can be used for both good and ill and that it experiences surges in one way or another. There are fundamentalists in all religions. Ours just seem to be extremely vocal right now and have disproportional sway on some of our politicians. There are certainly plenty of churches that aren't anal and annoyingly evangelistic. But because they aren't, you don't really hear much about them.

[Randyraven]

[Guildmaster Van]

Most private American insurance companies will let you do that, but if we have a nationalized health care thing going on, will there be some thing where birth control isn't covered if you're under 18, because people under 18 shouldn't be having sex?

I'd imagine that something like that would actually fall under the option of the parent's health plan rather than the child's, so the parent can make the decision in the matter. Democracy rules (Actually Democracy sucks most of the time)

Same thing with abortion, really. It's a really hot topic in this country, so for the government health care plan to cover ANY kind of abortion whatsoever, even if it's to save the mother's life, seems nearly impossible to accomplish.

Even I disagree with government funding for abortion, in the same way I disagree with the government funding sex-change operations (IE - It's not really life threatening, but a personal choice). If someone if stupid and irresponsible enough to get pregnant then it's their own goddamn problem. The government, here at least, gives out free condoms. That's your abortion funding right there. Anything else would be to reward people for their own stupidity, and quite frankly I'd rather see stupid people punished for their stupidity because otherwise they learn nothing. The only thing abortion related that a government should cover is for rape victims and women in health so poor they wouldn't not even be able to safely Cezarian-section the kid out.

the Republican party has become much, much more conservative within the last few decades.

More Religious = More Conservative
Christianity, or at least what Jesus said, has more in common with Left-wing ideologies than anything else - love thy neighbor, share what little you have, and bankers are cocksuckers. Right-wingers are Right-winged not because of their views towards homosexuals and other faith-based debates, but because their policies towards governing a country are Right-winged. The fact they became the bedfellows of the faithful in America is actually pretty irrelevant to their ideological inclination, as evidenced by the fact in your last election the religious "right" started weighing their options in the Democrats.

No, what I think you really mean is that the Republican party has become more Right-winged. What choice do they have? Democrats have become the new Right-wing, so the Republicans have to be even more Right-winged than usual. Sad coming from Abe Lincoln's party.

[A COMIC]

Ha ha ha, <3 Panel 6

[Tellurider]

Same thing with abortion, really. It's a really hot topic in this country, so for the government health care plan to cover ANY kind of abortion whatsoever, even if it's to save the mother's life, seems nearly impossible to accomplish.

Even I disagree with government funding for abortion, in the same way I disagree with the government funding sex-change operations (IE - It's not really life threatening, but a personal choice). If someone if stupid and irresponsible enough to get pregnant then it's their own goddamn problem. The government, here at least, gives out free condoms. That's your abortion funding right there. Anything else would be to reward people for their own stupidity, and quite frankly I'd rather see stupid people punished for their stupidity because otherwise they learn nothing. The only thing abortion related that a government should cover is for rape victims and women in health so poor they wouldn't not even be able to safely Cezarian-section the kid out.

That was kind of my point. Would the government cover abortions for women who would die (along with the baby) if they didn't have an abortion? Would they cover it for rape victims? The former seems like they could probably work it in, but in the latter case people would say that the baby itself is an innocent person so how could you murder it even if it was forced on the woman.

I agree that the government shouldn't cover abortions for anyone who just didn't want the baby, and got pregnant through improper contraception, and I don't expect them to. But despite the Roe v. Wade decision, it's one thing for abortion (of any kind - for rape victims, to save lives, whatever) to be legal, and another for the government to actually pay for it.

[Komiyan]

Even I disagree with government funding for abortion, in the same way I disagree with the government funding sex-change operations (IE - It's not really life threatening, but a personal choice). If someone if stupid and irresponsible enough to get pregnant then it's their own goddamn problem. The government, here at least, gives out free condoms. That's your abortion funding right there. Anything else would be to reward people for their own stupidity, and quite frankly I'd rather see stupid people punished for their stupidity because otherwise they learn nothing. The only thing abortion related that a government should cover is for rape victims and women in health so poor they wouldn't not even be able to safely Cezarian-section the kid out.

Bollocks to that. It's a medical procedure, and one that affects society, and as such should be covered just like contraception should be. And fuck you for assuming everyone who has to get an abortion is 'stupid and irresponsible', there's about a million exceptions to this.

It's covered by the NHS here, I'll point out.

[McDuffies]

IIn addition, We have a doctrine of seperation of church and state. The problems with that are twofold: First, since people make up the government, and those people are supposed to accurately reflect their constituents desires in creating laws, it is impossible to ignore religious considerations in the creation of laws. Second, No two people In the US seem able to agree on what exactly seperation of church and state means. The Atheists maintain that no religious viewpoint should be considered and that god should not even be mentioned. the theists maintain that as long as government isn't interfering in religion, or makin laws against religion, then it's okay. the Scientologists want to use the government to get whatever they can.

You are saying it as if USA is the only country that has secular state, but what you're describing is pretty much the norm for western world. Except that when others ssay secular that really means state separated from church, while in USA it doesn't seem so. Which is a reason why it's so complicated over there, but in any multicultural country, maintaining a secular government shouldn't be more complicated than, say, a government that doesn't support racial segregation.

As for Protestantism, I don't think that I would say that it is any better or any worse than any other flavor of Christianity. Again, you mostly see the bad side of it on the news because that is what attracts attention. I mean, it's not like Catholicism doesn't have a checkered past either.

I guess it depends on a particular church, most of them were founded to try to fix Catholicism's mistakes in the past by returning to Christian principles from before Catholicism messed up all the doctrines... but while for some that means returning to more immaterial and judgemental church, for others that means sticking stubbornly to the most backward teachings you can find in Bible.

There are fundamentalists in all religions. Ours just seem to be extremely vocal right now and have disproportional sway on some of our politicians.

But it's a circular process, government that is swayed by church uses institutions of education and media to probuce more mind-numbed people who will listen to their local priest no matter what he says.

[Rkolter]

I would have a problem with my tax dollars paying for medical treatment that was not deemed necessary by medical professionals (who should know, as opposed to insurance adjusters who often do not know). That would include abortion - outside for the safety of the mother's health, rape, or a very limited number of other case by case situations that would take abortion from "choice" to "need".

As others mentioned - there is a difference between recognizing that abortion should be legal (I'm very pro-choice) and PAYING for someone else's abortion when that person could safely carry their child to term (and who willingly had the sex to have the child in the first place).

[Alias Pseudonym]

As for Protestantism, I don't think that I would say that it is any better or any worse than any other flavor of Christianity. Again, you mostly see the bad side of it on the news because that is what attracts attention. I mean, it's not like Catholicism doesn't have a checkered past either.

I guess it depends on a particular church, most of them were founded to try to fix Catholicism's mistakes in the past by returning to Christian principles from before Catholicism messed up all the doctrines... but while for some that means returning to more immaterial and judgemental church, for others that means sticking stubbornly to the most backward teachings you can find in Bible.

Yeah, the Catholics at that point had come up with the brilliant doctrine of getting into heaven by giving piles of money to the Catholic Church, so some people got pissed off and went off to start their own church. Without blackjack. Or hookers.

[Komiyan]

I would have a problem with my tax dollars paying for medical treatment that was not deemed necessary by medical professionals (who should know, as opposed to insurance adjusters who often do not know). That would include abortion - outside for the safety of the mother's health, rape, or a very limited number of other case by case situations that would take abortion from "choice" to "need".

What of contraception, then? It's not medically "necessary", but it would make a marked improvement on a lot of social problems.

I have zero problems with my taxes going towards these things, personally, but I get that that's a personal choice.