Death Panels for All! The health care thread

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Killbert-Robby
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Re: Death Panels for All! The health care thread

Post by Killbert-Robby »

VinnieD wrote:Enforce the same laws regarding fraud and breach of contract that exist for every other business. And a hole is not so imaginary.
I never once said imaginary, I said abstract. If laws were worded plainly, and written in stone, there would be no reason to have lawyers. Not to mention PLENTY of companies get away with fraud and breach of contract.
Not to mention that bringing big business and the government that close together (Because something on this scale would involve the government looking into every insurance claim that's filed) is SERIOUS corruption-bait, so I don't see how its favorable to national healthcare.
I mean, if you're scared of government involvement in health care, how the hell can you not be afraid of government involvement in insurance? It just seems like a real gap in logic.
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Re: Death Panels for All! The health care thread

Post by McDuffies »

VinnieD wrote: My main opposition to the Obama proposed method isn't that I think people shouldn't be able to get medical treatment, it's that I don't want to see the government in control of healthcare. You can't go on "Give us control and we promise not to abuse it." Because even if the founders hold to their word, (a rarity), the next administration and the ones to follow would be increasingly less likely to.
Why do you assume that following administrations would do increasingly worse job? Isn't idea of democratic government actually the oposite, expecting that every next government would do a better job, being aware that it's easily replaceable? The "Give us control and we promise not to abuse it" is the basis for every government's involvement pretty much anywhere, but with addendum that if they do abuse it, we punish them in elections by not voting for them. Not that it always turns out like that, but I don't see reason in instantly assuming that every next government would do increasingly worse job. If anything it's more erratic than declining trend.
A more reasonable solution for everyone is to close the existing gaps in the insurance industry, and in medicare, and enforce that insurance policies are carried out properly like any other business contract with criminal penalties aplenty if the contract is breached.
I wouldn't trust law too much on that. For one, courts aren't very... efficient. Rulling over some business matter involving sums of money is one thing, but when the issue is health, then the control should be much more efficient and fast than courts are.

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Re: Death Panels for All! The health care thread

Post by VinnieD »

Nothing.
Last edited by VinnieD on Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Death Panels for All! The health care thread

Post by Killbert-Robby »

Yeah Canadians went to the US for health care. You know. The ones with money. The ones who can afford it. The ones who have money to burn to such a degree they say "Meh, this is non-vital surgery, I'm willing to pay out the nose to get it done ASAP so I can get on with my life" Those who can't? They die horrible deaths or lose their jobs and are unable to support their family a-... oh wait shit, no, thats not right. Canadians who can't afford non-vital surgery just kinda wait. And get it. For free.
Canadians with diseases that require urgent attention or they'll die? CONTRARY TO POPULAR BELIEF :O They are in fact not left to die in the waiting room, but, GET THIS, GIVEN MEDICAL TREATMENT.

As for
Now what I've said is that the existing rule of law should be enforced properly. Now you go making the ridiculous claim that it would require courts involved in every single insurance claim made. How do you arrive at that notion?
I never said the courts would need to be involved in every claim made. OMGPUTTINGWORDSINMYMOUTHOMFG
but please do not put words in my mouth
I could, very honestly, go on about this for hours, but Jesus Christ you quoted REAGAN at the end, so I'll save myself the headache. Like, this won't even be fun as a debate. It'll just be painful.
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Re: Death Panels for All! The health care thread

Post by Komiyan »

VinnieD wrote: Government controlled healthcare really would bring government bureaucracy into every single claim, vastly delaying treatment for everyone. There is a reason Canadians come down to the US for medical needs. There's an old saying of "you get what you pay for."
Again, speaking as someone with a family who has consistently received excellent healthcare in a speedy fashion from the NHS, I have to say it doesn't sound like you know how it works over here. I could not be happier with the treatment any of us has been given, so to suggest that it takes a 'vast' amount of time for every treatment is simply false. I know full well that I could call my GP right now and have an appointment, for free, within the week, possibly within the day.
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Re: Death Panels for All! The health care thread

Post by Killbert-Robby »

Komiyan wrote:
VinnieD wrote: Government controlled healthcare really would bring government bureaucracy into every single claim, vastly delaying treatment for everyone. There is a reason Canadians come down to the US for medical needs. There's an old saying of "you get what you pay for."
Again, speaking as someone with a family who has consistently received excellent healthcare in a speedy fashion from the NHS, I have to say it doesn't sound like you know how it works over here. I could not be happier with the treatment any of us has been given, so to suggest that it takes a 'vast' amount of time for every treatment is simply false. I know full well that I could call my GP right now and have an appointment, for free, within the week, possibly within the day.
Not to mention I don't see where this beurocracy thing comes in.
"I'd like to see the doctor"
"Do you have an insurance number?"
*Flash health card, fill out name, address, insurance number*
"Yes I do"
"He'll see you in around half an hour"
"Thank you"

So far, universal healthcare hasn't exactly avalanched me under paperwork
It might be just me, but I've found that there's a lot more beurocratic BS in third party insurance than in government run healthcare
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Re: Death Panels for All! The health care thread

Post by Komiyan »

Yeah, making an appointment means registering at your local GP, which is one, maybe two forms, and that's it. Past that point you just call up and give your name, and in you go!
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Re: Death Panels for All! The health care thread

Post by McDuffies »

Big business may be corrupt, but it's mitigated by market factors. I'll take big business over big government any day.
Big government is mitigated by election factors.
I on the other hand don't have that kind of trust in capitalism, as they say, money sticks to money, and big companies aren't always big because they provide good service. Yeah, I'm all for liberal market, but health should not be considered a commodity to be bought and sold, so it should not be a matter of liberal market.
A government's job is to maintain law and order, provide for national defense, and maintain infrastructure.
It seems like kind of arbitrary choice of duties. I mean you could as well say "A government's job is to maintain law and order and maintain infrastructure" and then advocate the private army, but there's no arguements for any of that other than maintaining a status quo. If healthcare actually is a government issue in other countries (and with good results), why shouldn't be in USA?
If your insurance provider isn't doing that, then yes criminal, not civil charges should be pressed. It only takes one or two high profile cases to destroy a company's reputation, bottom out its stock and cause it to fold if their corruption is revealed to the public. By enforcing law, you keep the rest honest. That's the very nature of law in its self.
But wait, if the company goes down because of a few high-profile cases, doesn't that mean that everyone who was insured with the company loses their insurance?

And then, winning a court case against a company doesn't exactly help a man whose health was damaged. "You may be crippled for life, but if it's any consolation, health care works a bit better now thanks to you."

And then, you're depicting a scenario that doesn't happen very often in reality. Big companies are regularly getting away with cheating and corruption.
Government controlled healthcare really would bring government bureaucracy into every single claim, vastly delaying treatment for everyone.
No, it wouldn't. You would simply go to a hospital and get a treatment. I don't know how you imagine health care functions in other countries, but it's not exactly how you describe it. Ask around, maybe you'll change your mind.
Now I'm very well aware the absolute gang beating I'm inviting by coming out as an economic conservative here...or really anywhere on the internet, and yes you can sit there and make jokes at my expense, insult me, and pat yourself on the back for denouncing me as backward and ignorant if you like...
That's a preemptive strike against everyone who disagrees with you to portray them as flamers. Remember folks: mutual respect!!!

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Re: Death Panels for All! The health care thread

Post by VinnieD »

Nothing.
Last edited by VinnieD on Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Death Panels for All! The health care thread

Post by Ti-Phil »

Alright Vinnie,then tell us, how does it work in the states? Let's say you break your hand in an incident involving you, a questionnable dairy product and a huge steel door.

Now here is how it would work in Canada :

Step 1 : Put ice on hand
Step 2 : Go to the hospital, show your sun card (medical card)
Step 3 : Wait a little, read or play a game or so.
Step 4 : Meet doctor, take picture. If the doctor sees something wrong, he puts a cast right away. (now the human factor of the doctor's competence may vary from hospital to hospital and the number of hours they had to work in the day).

Now, let's say there is a complication due to the human factor said above and that, for some reason, nothing was detected and there is now complication.

Step 5 : Go back to the hospital where another doctor check the picture.
Step 6 : Give a date for a small operation (usually minor operations can be given the next day!)
Step 7 : Get operation and a cast.

Cost for all this : 0$

Now how would that work in the states?
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Re: Death Panels for All! The health care thread

Post by Jim North »

I can field that one. It's about the same, except that last part. The cost is a little bit more than $0 . . . and even if you have insurance, they might not pay the whole thing . . . and they probably won't want to pay for any of it, so you'll have to spend time haggling with the insurance company . . . and since you might be unable to work with a broken hand depending on what kind of work you do, you'll have less money to pay for the hospital bills or the insurance unless you can wrangle disability, which can take some time and hassle on its own . . .
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Killbert-Robby wrote:Yes! So is Canadian health care! It is also awesome!
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Komiyan and Killbert-Robby wrote:Hooray for universal health care!
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Re: Death Panels for All! The health care thread

Post by Komiyan »

*breaks both of her legs just to get them fixed for free to spite Jim*
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Re: Death Panels for All! The health care thread

Post by Jim North »

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Re: Death Panels for All! The health care thread

Post by Killbert-Robby »

I'd damage myself to purposefully rub it in, but I've already used just SOOOO much theoretical-money that it wouldn't be fair to the rest of the country.
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Re: Death Panels for All! The health care thread

Post by Ti-Phil »

Oh wait, I forgot! While I was healing I was also paid by my employer because I got hurted at work. So not only was it free, I also gained money! Hooray for CSST!
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Re: Death Panels for All! The health care thread

Post by Mercury Hat »

They call that worker's compensation here, phil, and it's a separate matter from your own insurance usually. If you injured yourself on the job, that is, your employee will pay you even if you aren't working. It is a form of insurance, but it comes out of your employer's insurance and not your own personal health insurance.

As for how much of your treatment they pay for and how much you're on your own for, that's got a whole mess of variables to go into it. Usually you're on the hook for your bills and they pay you back.

Your insurance might chip in and pay for some of your time off, too, depending on how good your insurance is.
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Re: Death Panels for All! The health care thread

Post by RPin »

VinnieD wrote:Enforce the same laws regarding fraud and breach of contract that exist for every other business. And a hole is not so imaginary. It's simply the difference between qualifying for medicare, and being able to afford insurance.
Except that these companies don't do anything illegal. They scam in broad daylight because their contracts and the legislation allow for it. They have lawmakers and the congress at their hands, buying them through lobbyists to make sure that the regulations are never disadvantageous to them, so that they can deny your treatment and bail out whenever they want.

And the sickest of it all? They do all that with the money YOU pay them to take care of you.

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Re: Death Panels for All! The health care thread

Post by Killbert-Robby »

Mercury Hat wrote:They call that worker's compensation here, phil, and it's a separate matter from your own insurance usually. If you injured yourself on the job, that is, your employee will pay you even if you aren't working. It is a form of insurance, but it comes out of your employer's insurance and not your own personal health insurance.

As for how much of your treatment they pay for and how much you're on your own for, that's got a whole mess of variables to go into it. Usually you're on the hook for your bills and they pay you back.

Your insurance might chip in and pay for some of your time off, too, depending on how good your insurance is.
I think Phil is pretty aware of that, and he's just making a light hearted jab, you know, HA HAH, I WON TEN BUCKS PLAYING POOL, ITS LIKE I'M BEING PAID TO PLAY
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Re: Death Panels for All! The health care thread

Post by Ti-Phil »

Robby got it. We all pay for the CSST here. Then again we pay for a lot of things with all the income things. Oh well, it's part of the "free health and services" package.
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