Going on your own...

[Dotty]

It seems to me a webcomic host owned and run by the webcomic authors themselves would be best. Split the costs on the server, provide audience sharing and collaborate on ways to bring in the doh.

Collective action and cooperation work fine, but as I understand it, Spot is solely owned by four individuals, not the artists. The major decisions are made by them, and half of the total profits taken in are going to them.

It doesn't seem to me that that would be the most conducive business model for success in a medium such as webcomics. But on the other hand, I should probably stop thinking these dangerous thoughts.

I read that giant damaging keenspot thread with bobby crosby vs. scott kurtz, and I learned keenspot is owned by 6 people, not 4. Bobby is one, but a minor one. I'm not sure who mystery #5 is.

I always just assumed going to keenspot was for the love of books, posters, and plushies.

Also, theres several comics on keenspot that are pretty big. Dominic Deegan is growing by the day, a few months ago he broke the 10000 readers a day mark, and still growing. He spent a month trying to raise 12000 dollars to quit his job, and got almost 10000 of it. I'd say he's pretty popular.

Errant Story is pretty large. Of course, it's the guy who did exploitation now. I think he probably lost some of his fans with the switch of genre, but it's still a pretty pumping and fanatical fanbase. He raised 8000 dollars in like...3 days. Again, popular.

RPG World has been pretty sketchy lately. I don't even know if poor Ian haunts my bookmarks anymore or not...I'll check when I get home.

Sinfest I still read, and it's still pretty big...but it's also an example of the big comics given.

Heck, I guess Shlock Mercanary is a big comic. Until he jumped, I'd never heard of it.

Queen of Wands was pretty popular before it stopped, and Aerie has a knack for generating a rabid fanbase. Anyone remember Xenith? It's the reason I started webcomics...cause damn wasn't I sad when I found out it would never be finished.

Superosity is another popular one. Sore Thumbs. Nukees. College Roomies from Hell!!! .

I think Keenspot will be fine without Shlock...or Shylock...sorry if I've been saying it wrong...as I said, I'd never heard of it till the other day. As far as his revenues increasing since he jumped, that's pretty cool. I'm glad for him. I'd also expect my revenue to jump like crazy if I started to host my own ads....you know, cause I don't make anything as it is.

[McDuffies]

Well, hosting by artists themselves is nice idea for ambicious webcomickers. A lot of us, however, just wants a place where to post their comic. Before Keenspot, it was all pretty much self-hosting and I believe 'Spot started with idea that most of artists would want to take the burden of thinking about hosting and adds and all. And that's pretty much why Tyler's leaving won't damage it, because there are still artists who won't want to think about it.

Strange thing to me, from a glance to Keenspot forums, it was sure that Tyler wanted to stay on good terms with Spotters and not turn that into another "KEEN SUCKS, GOOD BYE LOSERS!!!" affair.
But now there's Tycho, posting something that seems to be a part of private conversation, that turns the story back to that direction.

Incidentally, I don't know what official TOS are (you might want to doublecheck that) but I remember that it was allowed to put adds on 'space site as long as it's not from the same source as keenspace adds, and as long as it's not placed next to keenspace add.

[The Neko]

Well, I haven't really posted my personal opinion yet, so...

I do think that KeenSpot is a step up, definitely. It has free hosting for the authors, and has been fairly reliable recently. The cross-promotion is a nice benefit as well. The artists also get paid for their work.

If you're not out for the money, a similar model is being hosted on KeenSpace, and then applying to and joining various groups that cross promote (i.e. places like Dayfree Press, etc.).

However, when you reach a certain point, the offers in KeenSpot are no longer a good deal for the artist, and if they can find a better deal on their own somewhere else, then that's great! Also, KeenSpot lacks any sort of community, which is a big turnoff.

[McDuffies]

It seems to me, that most of Spot comics have communities of fans for themselves, so they're not interested in some wider community.

[Stolle]

What the heck is a community? Really, what is it?

[McDuffies]

It's a group of people who share their food and resources, and have giant orgies.

[Howard Tayler]

Boy, there'es all kinds of room for Q&A here.

Lemme try and tackle these in the order of "most interesting to least interesting."

Q: Hey, what's up with you and Tycho? You dissin' Keen?
A: Between April 12th and 14th I emailed and IM'd several people, including Gav, the eCartoonists mailing list, and Tycho, mentioning that the Google Adsense revenue was a LOT better than I expected it to be. Tycho asked for some clarifications, and asked if he could post that information. I gave my permission, knowing full well that "permission" did not constitute "ability to set the tone of his article." We both felt that the news was important. Tycho took a more negative, accusatory stance than I would have, but the important thing is that he got your attention. Google Adsense works -- at least it works for ME, and it works for lots of others. Especially bloggers. There was a Scientific American article on that back in December, if I recall correctly.

Q: So... how much DO you make with Google Adsense?
A: I'm not prepared to disclose that information. I will say, however, that my hosting expenses at Canaca.com, paid up-front for three years, would be covered in a single month, assuming I served at least 3 million pages to my readers.

Q: Damn! 3 million pages?
A: Yup. That's roughly half again what I served in my last full month with Keenspot. Page-views have gone way up since my site started loading faster. And that's BEFORE I got "wanged" by Penny Arcade. This month I'll probably serve more than 4 million pages.

Q: So... should I stay on Keenspace?
A: I don't see why not. Self-hosting without the programming chops to automate your site is a nightmare. I'm paying a guy to solve the technical problems for me, so that I can focus on being a full-time cartoonist. If you don't do at least (hang on while I pull some numbers out of my butt...) 250,000 page-views in a month, hiring someone to do the heavy lifting for you is probably not an option.

Q: Well... I know this guy who can help me. Should I still stay?
A: That's between you and "this guy," whoever he is. I'll say this much -- Unless you're over the 50,000 page mark, Google Adsense revenue would be pretty low. Then again, seeing that you're making SOMETHING might motivate you to find a way to serve more pages.

Q: What about Keenspot?
A: What about it? I'm nothing but grateful for the leg up they provided me. The negative publicity they've recieved will pass, and they'll either take the Adsense information and find ways to better serve the 'Spotters, or they won't. I'd prefer to see Keenspot cartoonists making more money than they currently make. It's not a zero-sum game. Keenspot, Keenspotters, and I can all succeed without having to stomp on each other.

Q: So... what technology are you using? Is it Autokeen Lite? CUSP? What?
A: SOLAR. It's a currently-closed-source, closed-beta project: "Shiny OnLine Archive Repository." Elements of this code have been incorporated in several commercial websites. It's heavy duty stuff, and it updates my 1700-page archives in less than 60 seconds from the word go. It also caches my updates, so even a full update at new-comic-time can be executed in less time than it takes to reload a single browser page.

Q: Can I get some of this SOLAR stuff?
A: Maybe. Certainly not until the beta is over. It'll probably be part of a public offering sometime in June.

Q: Howard, are you going into the comic hosting business?
A: Absolutely not. I want to be a cartoonist, not a CEO. I've done the "businessman" thing. I quit a very nice, high-paying job back in September (I was a Product Line Manager for a $100 million business unit at Novell) because I wanted to be a cartoonist.

Q: I've got more questions. Will you answer them?
A: I may use some stock answers like "I'm not at liberty to comment on that right now", but yes, I will. Right here in this thread, even. Or you can email me.

--Howard
http://www.schlockmercenary.com

[Joel Fagin]

Heck, I guess Shlock Mercanary is a big comic. Until he jumped, I'd never heard of it.

"Just because you don't know me doesn't mean I'm not famous." - Howard Taylor

Always liked that quote.

- Joel Fagin

[McDuffies]

Heh, thanks for the answers.

[Tangho]

I suggest the keen company to switch to Google Adsense Program, earn more money, and then share it with keenspot and keenspace artists.

Even if Keenspace takes a 60% cut, that would still be more than keenspace artists currently get--Nothing. And I don't see any ads running at any keenspace site I visited.

[Col]

...lugubriously...

Wow! What a great word!

"...lugubriously"

"lugubriously..."

"lugubriously."

"LUGUBRIOUSLY!"

[LAGtheNoggin]

I suggest the keen company to switch to Google Adsense Program, earn more money, and then share it with keenspot and keenspace artists.

Even if Keenspace takes a 60% cut, that would still be more than keenspace artists currently get--Nothing. And I don't see any ads running at any keenspace site I visited.

Google Adsense seems to make, uhm, sense. And they're a lot less annoying than what we have to deal with now. But eh, contracts are contracts, I have no idea what's going on under the hood.

Although KeenSpace should remain free, both to come aboard and in what they pay you (nothing), I can see working out space payment as quite a hassel. Keen should really have something for succesful Spacers to go onto, something less objective to joining (just judged on number of visitors) and with better services, at the moment I really don't see Spot as a great a step as it should or could be.

Personally I'd rather see Spot rebranded and remade into something more aspiring (or something new made), but eh, that's personal opinion.

[edits: 4am, English my good is]

[TheGoobla]

It's a group of people who share their food and resources, and have giant orgies.

[Steverules]

Q & A post

Howard, when are you going to quit skirting the issues and answer the REAL question????
Would you or would you not sex up soap soaperson?

[Howard Tayler]

Howard, when are you going to quit skirting the issues and answer the REAL question????
Would you or would you not sex up soap soaperson?

Not. Next question!

[Zhen Dil Oloth]

Forgive an ignorant foll but.....

What is the difference between Keenspot and Keenspace??

Yes I am a newbie here.

[Rianeva]

I suggest the keen company to switch to Google Adsense Program, earn more money, and then share it with keenspot and keenspace artists.

Even if Keenspace takes a 60% cut, that would still be more than keenspace artists currently get--Nothing. And I don't see any ads running at any keenspace site I visited.

Free hosting isn't nothing. =p

Wait, you're not getting ads at Keenspace sites? I assure you they're there. (Hell, I've gotten popups from Keenspace sites.) Though Google ads would beat what we've got now, there's still contract issues to be considered.

Edit: Keenspace is free and anyone can have their comic on Keenspace, provided that they actually have one. You don't get on Keenspot unless the higher-ups there think your comic has the potential to be profitable for the site. 'Spot is also much more exclusive than 'Space about what gets on. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong; I believe that's the main difference, though.)

[Howard Tayler]

Keenspace is a free hosting service for webcomics. The only requirements are that you a) Have comic content on your page, and b) use the ***advertisement*** tag in all your HTML files. That way Autokeen can update your pages with ads, and Keenspace can make enough money to continue providing the service.

Keenspot is several things:
1) It's a privately held corporation, owned 50/50 by Orthonormal Systems and Crosby Comics. The co-CEOs are Darren "Gav" Bleuel (Orthonormal) and Chris Crosby (Crosby Comics). Nate Stone and Terri Crosby fill out the rest of the four key decision-makers. Frank and Bobby Crosby hold (to my limited knowledge) non-voting shares.
2) It is the company that "owns" Keenspace.
3) It is an invitation-only pseudo-syndicate/hub/portal for webcartoonists. Keenspot offers 50% revenue-sharing on advertising, plus hassle-free hosting and advertising, and the largest network of cross-promotional ads in the industry. On this one point, it's just like Keenspace, except you have to get invited, you end up with an order of magnitude more readers (at least!), and you get paid.
4) It is a company whose principal product -- webcomics, is created by contractors, not employees. These contractors (you'd call them "cartoonists") retain full rights to their work. About all they sign away is the right to exclusive web publication, which means their strips are only found on Keenspot for the duration of their contract.
5) It is a publishing company, and it publishes dead-tree versions of the webcomics it hosts. The publishing deals are separate from the initial Keenspot invitation, however. Some Keenspot cartoonists publish through Plan 9 (GPF, for instance), some publish independently (Sinfest through Cafe Press), and some don't publish at all.

Clear as mud?

FYI: I announced to Keenspot's decision makers back in October of 2004 that I intended to leave. In April of 2005 I got my act together and actually left, after having been with the company (as a contractor, just like the rest of the cartoonists) since September of 2000.

It is safe, therefore, to say that I do NOT speak for the company. The above information is complete and accurate to the best of my knowledge, but is subject to correction, further clarification, or deletion at the whim of those who DO speak for the company.

--Howard "Next question!" Tayler

[The Neko]

Edit: Keenspace is free and anyone can have their comic on Keenspace, provided that they actually have one. You don't get on Keenspot unless the higher-ups there think your comic has the potential to be profitable for the site. 'Spot is also much more exclusive than 'Space about what gets on. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong; I believe that's the main difference, though.)

In my experience, the selection scheme for new Spot comics is murky and unintelligible to the average layman. It appears to be whether or not they like you.

[Howard Tayler]

In my experience, the selection scheme for new Spot comics is murky and unintelligible to the average layman. It appears to be whether or not they like you.

It's SUPPOSED to be murky. They pick comics based (at least in part) on what they think will best compliment their existing stable of cartoonists. How on EARTH is an outsider or average layperson supposed to make sense of that?

If you have lots of readers, your artwork is clean, and you update regularly, you'll be a shoo-in... right behind a dozen other comics they're currently looking at shooing in.

For the outsider who is planning a career as a cartoonist, that's the biggest problem with Keenspot. It's easier to get on Keenspot than it is to get on a print syndicate, but it's not something you can really plan into your day.

--Howard