Musing about Mary-Sues

[RobboAKAscooby]

I'm sure by now everyone who writes (or creates characters) knows what a Mary-Sue is but if not here.

Most of us at one time or another have probably tried one of those online "litmus tests" to see if our characters are Mary-sues (and usually scored pretty high) but they're not the best indicators.
For instance I decided out of boredom to test the main characters of my upcoming novel (late November release barring printing problems) and they tested pretty high - especially when it came to appearance, popularity, musical talent & "work and play" - which leads to the problem with these tests, sure if it was a story about highschool kids or such these scores would be a little excessive but my characters are (mostly) a rock band on their first headlining tour. So of course they're going to be popular, good with music and rather attractive - to remove these qualities would subtract from the realism of the story (as much as realism applies to a supernatural sci-fi musical adventure) rather than "make the characters more well rounded".
Context is more important than ticking off a list, what may be an annoying cliche in one genre may be a necessity in another.
Just a thought.

But of course when the time comes for reviews I'm sure the term Mary-Sue will be thrown around.

Thank you for reading my inane drivel.

[Toxic]

Post 4000!

[IVstudios]

Observation: Nothing makes your character sound like more or a Mary Sue than saying "People will probably say my character is a Mary Sue, but he's totally not!"

That said, I agree about context. Mary Sue's are hard to pin down a solid definition on, and there is a difference between a character that is a true Mary Sue and one that just has Sue traits.

Ultimately I think it can be boiled down to how the character fits into the story. I can't recall where I read it, but the best deffiniton for a Mary Sue I've heard goes something like "A character is a Mary Sue if the plot of the story exists to serve the character, instead of the character existing to further the plot." Or something to that affect.

[Killbert-Robby]

You've got it there IV. Look at it this way, when writing, we often base character on people we really know, but that's ok right? Its about having the right character for the plot. If you happen to suit a certain role, go for it. The problem becomes when it goes from serving the plot to just being daydreaming/masturbating.

[RobboAKAscooby]

Observation: Nothing makes your character sound like more or a Mary Sue than saying "People will probably say my character is a Mary Sue, but he's totally not!"

I was more trying to get across the point that any character who is above average these days seem to get labeled Mary-Sue's automatically, even by legitimate reviewers (that being said I don't expect that many legitimate reviews on my first novel no matter how many copies I send out).

That said, I agree about context. Mary Sue's are hard to pin down a solid definition on, and there is a difference between a character that is a true Mary Sue and one that just has Sue traits.

Ultimately I think it can be boiled down to how the character fits into the story. I can't recall where I read it, but the best deffiniton for a Mary Sue I've heard goes something like "A character is a Mary Sue if the plot of the story exists to serve the character, instead of the character existing to further the plot." Or something to that affect.

Exactly the point.

You've got it there IV. Look at it this way, when writing, we often base character on people we really know, but that's ok right? Its about having the right character for the plot. If you happen to suit a certain role, go for it. The problem becomes when it goes from serving the plot to just being daydreaming/masturbating.

Well the thing is we learn all the different character/personality traits from the people in our lives so there is bound to be times when the character resembles the person (although personally I like to pick bits of different people and mix them together). Then there's the fact that our own personalities often colour the way we write.


All in all I think I'm getting too wrapped up in the minor concerns as the damn book release approaches, all I should really care about is if the story is good or at least enjoyable and stop worrying about the crap.

[McDuffies]

Ultimately I think it can be boiled down to how the character fits into the story. I can't recall where I read it, but the best deffiniton for a Mary Sue I've heard goes something like "A character is a Mary Sue if the plot of the story exists to serve the character, instead of the character existing to further the plot." Or something to that affect.

That definition is not true at all. A plot that serves the character is not a characteristics of mary sue, it's characteristics of every character-driven story. Think "Taxi Driver" - the whole "outside" including the plot serves practically as a mirror to reflect what's happening inside the character. And is he a mary-sue? Hell, there's an entire school of thought that believes that all good stories are character-driven because it's always characters we connect to and because we usually don't really care about the plot unless it's happening to someone we care about. So yeah, a plot that exists to serve the character is not only a completely legit approach, but often a prefered one.

Isn't definition of mary-sue a wish-fulfillment character? A character that describes author's idealized version of himself, what he wished to be like? That's a perfectly fine definition to me, even if it requires knowing author's preferations in advance. But if you're asking for some easy clue that'll instantly categorize them find that moral upper hand is the single trait most often found at mary-sues. No matter what a character does, his moral righteousness is never brought into question; reality inside the comic tends to bend out of shape in order to make even some of the more despicable actions morally justified.

Most of us at one time or another have probably tried one of those online "litmus tests" to see if our characters are Mary-sues (and usually scored pretty high) but they're not the best indicators.

I'm not sure how serious those tests are supposed to be. They may as well be out there just for fun. I know that everyone will rush to test their characters even if they'll be quick to dismiss results right after that, so probably noone really does them to actually evaluate their comic.
These tests check out things that are most often found in mary sues considering the population that makes webcomics nowadays. If you belong to that target group, your mary sue would probably check out.
On the other hand, consider emo webcomics; they'll do exactly the oposite of what any test says; they'll try to make character as miserable as it can be, because that's the kind of character that author identifies with. And don't even get me started on white power comics, which are all by rule mary sue comics but would hardly fit any test.

For instance I decided out of boredom to test the main characters of my upcoming novel (late November release barring printing problems) and they tested pretty high - especially when it came to appearance, popularity, musical talent & "work and play" - which leads to the problem with these tests, sure if it was a story about highschool kids or such these scores would be a little excessive but my characters are (mostly) a rock band on their first headlining tour. So of course they're going to be popular, good with music and rather attractive - to remove these qualities would subtract from the realism of the story (as much as realism applies to a supernatural sci-fi musical adventure) rather than "make the characters more well rounded".

Those are all superficial characteristics of your characters, but if they get to be shaded well and reasonably morally ambigious, I don't know why anyone would tag them as mary sues. On the other hand, if besides being pretty, popular, talented etc, they are also perfectly morally upright and can't-do-no-wrong, they probably will be.

[IVstudios]

Ultimately I think it can be boiled down to how the character fits into the story. I can't recall where I read it, but the best deffiniton for a Mary Sue I've heard goes something like "A character is a Mary Sue if the plot of the story exists to serve the character, instead of the character existing to further the plot." Or something to that affect.

That definition is not true at all. A plot that serves the character is not a characteristics of mary sue, it's characteristics of every character-driven story. Think "Taxi Driver" - the whole "outside" including the plot serves practically as a mirror to reflect what's happening inside the character. And is he a mary-sue? Hell, there's an entire school of thought that believes that all good stories are character-driven because it's always characters we connect to and because we usually don't really care about the plot unless it's happening to someone we care about. So yeah, a plot that exists to serve the character is not only a completely legit approach, but often a prefered one.

Isn't definition of mary-sue a wish-fulfillment character? A character that describes author's idealized version of himself, what he wished to be like? That's a perfectly fine definition to me, even if it requires knowing author's preferations in advance. But if you're asking for some easy clue that'll instantly categorize them find that moral upper hand is the single trait most often found at mary-sues. No matter what a character does, his moral righteousness is never brought into question; reality inside the comic tends to bend out of shape in order to make even some of the more despicable actions morally justified.

That's what I mean by "the plot exist to serve the character." The plot will bend and change itself to fit the character's needs, instead of the character evolving with the the plot.

[McDuffies]

That's what I mean by "the plot exist to serve the character." The plot will bend and change itself to fit the character's needs, instead of the character evolving with the the plot.

Ok then, but my formulation is totally better.

[MariaAndMichelle]

Boys... boys... you BOTH did a very nice job. Nobody was better, or worse. We're proud of you both equally.

*And then they hugged Maria and Michelle, once each, and all of them went off to eat the cake that Michelle had made from her grandmother's secret recipe-- which had already won her several awards-- and Maria served it on the set of golden plates she found on her last trip to the Amazon. And everyone agreed that Maria and Michelle were the absolute best. THE END!*

[RobboAKAscooby]

*And then they hugged Maria and Michelle, once each, and all of them went off to eat the cake that Michelle had made from her grandmother's secret recipe-- which had already won her several awards-- and Maria served it on the set of golden plates she found on her last trip to the Amazon. And everyone agreed that Maria and Michelle were the absolute best. THE END!*

Now see someone could misconstrue this as "Mary-Sue-like" but it's not it's just the reality

[Yeahduff]

Everyone knows a sincere MariaAndMichelle ending would have them making out.

[Yeahduff]

Mary Sue is a term I've only heard applied to webcomics and Star Trek. I wouldn't worry about it too much. Just write strong characters and fuck what an online quiz tells you.

[MariaAndMichelle]

Everyone knows a sincere MariaAndMichelle ending would have them making out.

That's going to be in Part Two.

[McDuffies]

I definitelly don't remember ever making out with Ivstudios in the past.

Mary Sue is a term I've only heard applied to webcomics and Star Trek. I wouldn't worry about it too much. Just write strong characters and fuck what an online quiz tells you.

I've seen characters who are too unrealistically ideal everywhere... in films, on tv, etc... most often in works which are partly autobiographic (so no wonder it's so prevalent in webcomics) but they are in soap operas, vintage sf or any kind of pulp really. I don't think in terms of mary-sue generally, anyway it's a term that probably noone outside of a few internet communities knows, but it is a way to neatly sum up what I don't like about, say, Blacksad. Yeah, one shouldn't be obsessing about it, trying to avoid everything from the list or something like that.

[IVstudios]

I definitelly don't remember ever making out with Ivstudios in the past

Of course not. Those were some top quality ruffies I used.

[McDuffies]

Don't bother trying to blackmail me with some embarrasing photos, my political career's been ruined long time ago.

[Darlaka]

nice, good job guys

[Kisai]

The thing is, if you draw a comic, or write a story about someone that "nobody cares about" except yourself, then you've probably written a mary-sue.

The issue as stated earlier is that you have X character and Y plot, and stuff only happens in the plot to make X character look good. Or maybe X is so perfect that they can save the world effortlessly, thus negating the need for the story.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

Mary sue's are first and foremost a way for the author to self-insert into a piece of fiction (eg fan fiction) an unnecessary character, which is why "Wessley" was such a bad character in Startrek TNG. I haven't actually watched enough of TNG to make that assessment myself, but I think the summary is "wessley is introduced, wessley takes the spotlight away from all the other characters to save the day"

The TVTropes wiki has more breakdown on what they consider types of sue's, but the general idea is that the character is boring and wastes the readers time.


Now before anyone goes "I didn't do that", there are exceptions too, especially prevalent in webcomics, because a comic can be a slice of life, but only if the perspective is from a character that the audience wants to read and care about. In my opinion this is probably why comics about "two roommates, two band geeks, two people at a bar" etc show up a lot more often because that is the most common things people do in real life, that quite possibly everyone has done or knew someone who has done it. But the average "in real life" version of these events are often so boring that the author has to apply some drama ... and thats why we get the mary sue problem.

In all honesty just draw and write about whatever you want, but don't expect to become famous off it if you write things nobody wants to read.

[MariaAndMichelle]

Don't bother trying to blackmail me with some embarrasing photos, my political career's been ruined long time ago.

We'll pay top dollar for them, though. Wouldn't want them to go to waste, after all.