How long did you wait to "pimp" your comic?

[Alias Pseudonym]

Notice I didn't make any judgment on how a comic page 'should' be, only say that I will stop reading a comic that does that too often.

[NinjaNezumi]

edit:

Because if a poorly drawn comic is a waste of bandwidth, what the hell is a book on a comic hosting site?

A borderline situation that's technically not even supposed to be there. BUT it's not really your call to call someone out on that, while being borderline insulting. Cool your jets.

Despite the whole "I emailed comic genesis thing and got permission only to have everyone "forget" that I emailed the main office", I do want to answer that original question:

I am and always have been trying to get someone interested in serializing my sci-fi comedy in comic form. I've put forth a number of advertisements for artists. So that's really why Andrew is up on my site. I've had a few bites so far, so we'll see if anything comes of it in the next year

[ourmangaisbetter]

I'm not sure if I'd ever try to "pimp" our comic. I've only got the first page up, but I'm not the one who will be doing most of the drawing. I run an anime club and the various members are going to be drawing their own short story mangas so not all the pages will be related anyway, so it might get confusing trying to "pimp" it. The only place I'm planning to mention it is on the club information poster at the library so that potential members will know about it. Of course the other members might end up pimping it...

This is my first post... So... "Hello!" One more and I should be able to get into the siteadmin.

[Redtech]

The walls! They leak newbies!

I don't see what the deal is with the 20 update limit. After all, as long as one is consistent (I have been roasted for flitting between full-page and three panal updates!) then there's no problem, surely?

[Nikara]

I think it should depend on the story--if your comic consistents of gag strips that can more or less stand independently, then I don't think the limit needs to be that high. I do think the more ambitious stories should at least show the discipline of being able to get out at least 20 pages or so, because as a reader, there's nothing more frustrating than being left hanging ><

[NinjaNezumi]

The walls! They leak newbies!

I don't see what the deal is with the 20 update limit. After all, as long as one is consistent (I have been roasted for flitting between full-page and three panal updates!) then there's no problem, surely?

Here's an example of why: Because for people such as myself I'll have to supplement my PandaKing Once a Month webcomic with my old puppy rayn daily strip in order to qualify for advertising my site. Otherwise it will take 2 years before I can promote PandaKing alone. That's why I think it should either be 20 pages or 1 year of dedication.

but you know whatever. I'm sticking 4 weeks of my puppy rayn strip on my site tomorrow.

[Komiyan]

The walls! They leak newbies!

I don't see what the deal is with the 20 update limit. After all, as long as one is consistent (I have been roasted for flitting between full-page and three panal updates!) then there's no problem, surely?

Because there is nothing to promote if you have less than 20 pages, simple as that.

[Mercury Hat]

I think it should depend on the story--if your comic consistents of gag strips that can more or less stand independently, then I don't think the limit needs to be that high. I do think the more ambitious stories should at least show the discipline of being able to get out at least 20 pages or so, because as a reader, there's nothing more frustrating than being left hanging ><

Well even with straight up joke strips you can still get a better feel for the author's sense of humor and any characters involved in 20 strips than in 5 or 10. There are also plenty of examples of comics starting off as gag-a-day then developing a story later on, too, so you never know.

[K-Dawg]

I don't know about you but it's hard for me to get interested in a comic that only has three pages up.

So don't get interested, I really don't care. Some people are interested because my comic is 1/100th of the panada universe.

There are a lot of dedicated people who cannot do more than once or twice a month simply because there are other aspects of work that they have to do. It doesn't mean they aren't dedicated, and quite frankly, it's insulting for someone to say: "I don't care if you've been on your comic for a full year I don't think your dedicated because you don't have 20+ pages up on the site."

As far as I go, I've been making some big changes to how my comic works so one page takes me about 2 days to put up (drawing and audio takes a bit of time), which is why I havent' posted pages 6 and 7 yet.

I've seen a lot of comics which update daily that are a waste of bandwidth and space. They've got plots which go nowhere, and art where hands are drawn on the wrong arms, and necks that look like they've got a tumor bulging out from under their jaws. If it comes to a choice between that or a comic that updates 1-2 times a month, I'll choose the comic that updates 1-2 times a month any day.

I've found in my experience a lot of people who complain about not being able to advertise their comic right now usually end up quitting said comics pretty early. Usually because they don't have dedication, kinda ironic.

[McDuffies]

The walls! They leak newbies!

I don't see what the deal is with the 20 update limit. After all, as long as one is consistent (I have been roasted for flitting between full-page and three panal updates!) then there's no problem, surely?

Because there is nothing to promote if you have less than 20 pages, simple as that.

Yeah, limit is there also for the reader. As readers, most of us hate having a site pimped to them, only to find, like, three comics and nothing of a story. Asides from beautiful (or less beautiful) art, we want comics for stories too, and three pages, no matter how well drawn, just don't have enough story to make visit to the site meaningful.

Number of 20 comics, of course, is arbitrary. But if there was something like:
"Limit is 20 comics for comic strips with three panels, but 10 comics for comics that update by page, 8 comics if a page is in colour, but only five if a comic updates less than a week..."
...we'd be getting much more complaints about how confusing the rules are, or threads in Help forum asking "am I ready to pimp yet" because there's always someone who doesn't understand it all. So it's plain and simple 20 comics, and knowledge that no matter what the limit is, there'll always be people who are unhappy about it.

Also it's my personal opinion that making comics is a reward on it's own. So someone who is wholesomely enjoying making comics, shouldn't be upset about not being able to advertise it right away, after all feedback should only be a sideeffect, while real joy should be coming from making the darn thing.

[Komiyan]

Also you do get the free and relatively effortless advertising of posting in the forums with your comic as a sig banner. I click more of those than I ever look at pitched comics.

[PLR]

I've found in my experience a lot of people who complain about not being able to advertise their comic right now usually end up quitting said comics pretty early. Usually because they don't have dedication, kinda ironic.

Maybe part of that is not getting feedback or much interest. It's a possibility anyways...

I find it quite interesting how many people want, no need all the information right now. It's a sign of how our society just cannibalizes all the information it can as quickly as it can. There is no build up, no long term interest, no seeing how a story develops. Give me all of it right now so I can skim it and move on to the next thing.

In a way it's fascinating and into another it's incredibly sad.

Since I'm new here I have a fresh perspective on how this forum works (and of course still learning how it works). It seems that this forum is a little elitist and not very encouraging to new artists and story tellers. This isn't good or bad, just the way it seems to me. I've been around long enough that I don't really care what someone on a forum says, but I can see how it would be very disheartening to a new artist who is trying to put themselves out there for the first time.

Of course I've enjoyed this forum so far and I look forward to hanging around although I have a strong feeling there are some I whom I may not get along with...

[McDuffies]

I've found in my experience a lot of people who complain about not being able to advertise their comic right now usually end up quitting said comics pretty early. Usually because they don't have dedication, kinda ironic.

Maybe part of that is not getting feedback or much interest. It's a possibility anyways...

A person who quit before his 20th page because he didn't get any feedback, doesn't seem like someone with much dedication to webcomics... seems more like someone who has short-term interest based on attention he could get from it.

I find it quite interesting how many people want, no need all the information right now. It's a sign of how our society just cannibalizes all the information it can as quickly as it can. There is no build up, no long term interest, no seeing how a story develops. Give me all of it right now so I can skim it and move on to the next thing.

In a way it's fascinating and into another it's incredibly sad.

I find it more interesting how many people want attention for themselves as soon as they step on the stage. Yeah, some people wouldn't like to bother to draw 20 pages, they want all the praises and patting on the shoulder or really any kind of attention that internet micro-fame can offer them instantly.
I mean talking about "cannibalizing information", how can you expect people to put "long term interest" into your site before you yourself put any of it first? How can you expect them to wait in expectation of "how the story develops" if you didn't even develop a story yet?

20 pages is not much. If someone thinks drawing 20 pages is such big trouble, he's heading into much more trouble than he's bargained for, he should consider how much time it'll take him to draw the entire story.
"Long term interest" can start after 20 pages. The story doesn't stop developing after 20 pages (unless the comic is really sucky). All readers ask for is something to separate your from hundreds of thousands of other webcomics out there. But you expect them to follow every three-page-wonder without having proper insight in what they're actually following?

Since I'm new here I have a fresh perspective on how this forum works (and of course still learning how it works). It seems that this forum is a little elitist and not very encouraging to new artists and story tellers. This isn't good or bad, just the way it seems to me. I've been around long enough that I don't really care what someone on a forum says, but I can see how it would be very disheartening to a new artist who is trying to put themselves out there for the first time.
Of course I've enjoyed this forum so far and I look forward to hanging around although I have a strong feeling there are some I whom I may not get along with...

Passing judgement on forum and talking about "how it works" after spending less then a month on it seems to me like impolite thing to do, not really like an attempt to get along with anyone.

[PLR]

Passing judgement on forum and talking about "how it works" after spending less then a month on it seems to me like impolite thing to do, not really like an attempt to get along with anyone.

I don't disagree with anything you've said. And you are also correct in your assessment, generally I don't get along with most people. I call things that way I see them, doesn't mean I'm right... also doesn't mean I'm wrong, but hopefully I'm interesting.

I'm just trying to address the other side of the argument. The forum doesn't seem to "nurture" new talent, thus the elitist attitude I'm feeling. And again, if that's what you're going for great... personally I don't have a problem with that. This also isn't about me or my work, it's about encouraging people. Seeing as most people on here are armatures (myself included) shouldn't we be encouraging others whenever possible. Unless I'm missed it there isn't anywhere really setup on here for people to get feedback on their early work. Maybe it's something to consider. Some place someone can post early and preliminary work without everyone jumping down their throats.

Several people have mentioned how comics come and go, well that's part of the process. Someone might work on something then realize they aren't happy with it and move on to something else. That's life, also if they had guidance and encouragement maybe they would continue on or even produce something better than what they could do on their own.

Maybe I'm not being clear... and almost for sure I'm expecting too much. As "comics" aren't suppose to just be for kids, shouldn't the communities that revolve around them be more mature as well?

[RobboAKAscooby]

The forum doesn't seem to "nurture" new talent, thus the elitist attitude I'm feeling.

As I learned the hard way you don't want nurturing, some instruction/tips/advice yes (and it's easy enough on here) but "nurturing", hell that's just a euphemism for hand-holding, molly-coddling propping up of someone's fragile ego. The people on here are more than willing to advise a beginner artist but they're not going to hold your hand and praise you through every step of the process.

Unless I'm missed it there isn't anywhere really setup on here for people to get feedback on their early work. Maybe it's something to consider. Some place someone can post early and preliminary work without everyone jumping down their throats.

Techniques Tips & Tricks section.
Post all your questions in there, that's what it's there for.
Here is a perfect example.

Several people have mentioned how comics come and go, well that's part of the process. Someone might work on something then realize they aren't happy with it and move on to something else. That's life, also if they had guidance and encouragement maybe they would continue on or even produce something better than what they could do on their own.

The main problem with comics coming and going is that people do it on a whim or because they want the attention and then abandon it because it wasn't as easy or immediate as they thought.
I think there is a major problem in internet society now where people expecting immediate praise/feedback on whatever they do, anybody trying to make it in the real-world creative industries will have a long time to wait before getting any encouraging feedback. If feedback is your only motivation than you're (not you specifically but all the people who this attitude applies to) not going to last and you can't use the "only a hobby" line because if it was a hobby you wouldn't care about feedback for motivation, just doing the comic would be motivation enough.


The simple point is 20 comics is an easy enough test of YOUR OWN dedication, especially if you're only updating weekly or less. And for the readers this gives them a reason to want to come back the next week because they've had enough of a taste to get hooked, a couple of pages (no matter how good the art/writing) won't have people coming back a week later when they've got X amount of other comics already bookmarked.

[CJBurgandy]

Words that everyone should read!

You are now my favorite Newbie*** <3


***Edit: though I see you've been here almost a year, I hadn't ever noticed you posting before. So any apologies, if the word Newbie offends.

[PLR]

RobboAKAscooby all good points.
Although I didn't really see the Tips and tricks section as somewhere to post for feedback.

I still think a newbie section for feedback would be valuable. Having done a little bit of teaching (not comic related), confidence and dedication take time for most people. And it's at the beginning that is most important. When you've been around for a while it's easier to see the value in your efforts and the long term results.

Again just discussing the other side of the argument.

[CJBurgandy]

The problem I see with a newb forum area though is that I do not believe anyone who is helpful would actually go into it to give you all tips and feedback. Only two types of people would go into it, the newbies and our more troll-y posters (I'm looking at you Robby), although I think if trolling became a problem the admins would restrict that person's posting abilities. But a forum section that only had newbies in it, wouldn't lead to feedback and tips. It would lead to butt patting and circle jerking. When people are new to a group, they tend to tread lightly and be nice to anyone who asks them how their work is. It's hard for anyone to improve their art if they're being told that their stick figures with manga eyes are on the equivalent of Bernini's statue of Apollo and Daphne.

I am a high believer that newbies should adjust themselves to how things are ran and let us old grouchy people get used to you. You'll find that although most of us tend to cling to our circles of friends, that once you get to know us, we do try to help people improve. RobboAKAScooby is on the right track and is going to find that people will accept him and help him. The wrong way of entering any forum is to barge in and say they're new, but they know how things should be ran better than anyone else and insult people who try to guide them to forum rules. I've seen this forum evolve over the years from chaos to tidy and have seen my fair share of people crying "elitist!", but if we never embraced new people into our arms, I would only be friends with K-Dawg and Mcduffies and still waving my cane about telling Merc and Robin to get off my lawn.

A newb forum would only segregate you from ever joining the rest of the group.

[PLR]

Fair enough points and I don't have anything to counter any of them, That and I'm sure I've done enough "barging".

Also there is nothing wrong with being an elitist forum. For the most part those turn out to be some of the best, as long as it's balanced by mature people. And as I get to know everyone better I like this place, but it's always good to have the status quo challenged a little. Even if it doesn't change in the end.

[McDuffies]

I don't disagree with anything you've said. And you are also correct in your assessment, generally I don't get along with most people. I call things that way I see them, doesn't mean I'm right... also doesn't mean I'm wrong, but hopefully I'm interesting.

I'm just trying to address the other side of the argument. The forum doesn't seem to "nurture" new talent, thus the elitist attitude I'm feeling. And again, if that's what you're going for great... personally I don't have a problem with that. This also isn't about me or my work, it's about encouraging people. Seeing as most people on here are armatures (myself included) shouldn't we be encouraging others whenever possible. Unless I'm missed it there isn't anywhere really setup on here for people to get feedback on their early work. Maybe it's something to consider. Some place someone can post early and preliminary work without everyone jumping down their throats.

Several people have mentioned how comics come and go, well that's part of the process. Someone might work on something then realize they aren't happy with it and move on to something else. That's life, also if they had guidance and encouragement maybe they would continue on or even produce something better than what they could do on their own.

Maybe I'm not being clear... and almost for sure I'm expecting too much. As "comics" aren't suppose to just be for kids, shouldn't the communities that revolve around them be more mature as well?

Yeah, like Robbo mentioned above, there's a "Tips, Tricks and Techniques" forum where you're supposed to be able to post even a sinlge page and get some feedback on it. Sadly sometimes the forum is empty, but that's up to people and you can't force people to be present there if they're not interested..
Comic Pitching forum was intended to be a way of presenting comics to potential readers, not potential critics. Criticism aspect was a sideeffect that came because threads in TT&T sometimes went without a reply, and, well, because you can't stop people from inserting their opinion.
If I remember the beginnings well, the real problem back when Pitching forum was just made was that threads were just going too fast. Without a limit like 20 comics minimum, number of people pitching comics was much larger, and your thread would drop from page 1 in several hours. Some people were solving this problem by posting a new thread as soon as the old one would drop out of view, others by replying to their own thread without anything to add just to get it back on page 1, and some people just kept making a new thread every week because they thought that was a good marketing. In short, it was quite a chaos, and rules that you can read in a sticky in that forum helped mostly sort out that chaos. They weren't just made randomly on the spot, they're there because they worked better than other options. Noone's saying that these rules are fair to everyone or that number of 20 isn't arbitrary,

Nurturing new talents, eh I don't know, I think that depends less on forum rules and more on current cast of regulars, and that's something that changes from year to year. But while reasonable level of encouragement is welcomed, criticism doesn't only help you improve your art, it also prepares you for what's waiting for you. Many young artists start webcomics with unrealistic expectations; I mean that's ok, when I was starting we all thought we were potential Keenspotters, but then some thought they were bound to be new Penny Arcade or something, and got quite obnoxious when the world didn't grant them that honor. It may sound cruel, but I really think that minor dissapointment at the beginning, where you get to question your mothivation and decide whether you're still on or not, is less painful than major dissapointment later, after you've put a lot of effort in it but didn't get the reward you were led to expect.

I am a high believer that newbies should adjust themselves to how things are ran and let us old grouchy people get used to you. You'll find that although most of us tend to cling to our circles of friends, that once you get to know us, we do try to help people improve. RobboAKAScooby is on the right track and is going to find that people will accept him and help him. The wrong way of entering any forum is to barge in and say they're new, but they know how things should be ran better than anyone else and insult people who try to guide them to forum rules. I've seen this forum evolve over the years from chaos to tidy and have seen my fair share of people crying "elitist!", but if we never embraced new people into our arms, I would only be friends with K-Dawg and Mcduffies and still waving my cane about telling Merc and Robin to get off my lawn.

Yeah, even as small society as internet forum is, contains some semblance of social structure, some kind of hierarchy. So when you enter it you're not very high in that hierarchy, but you have a good chance to climb as high as you can, and it's really more up to you than anyone else. This entire hierarchy is based on how forumers feel about somebody, and noone can reasonably expect to instantly have the same place in people's hearts as someone who's been friend to them for years. 'Elitist' isn't the word I would use to describe it, but I guess some might, perhaps next time someone uses it, we should ask him of the exact definition he's using before the arguement ensues.