Comics for the Sight Impaired

[Harishankar]

My theory is that as a child, Robby was molested by a blind guy. That's the only reason I can come up with for all the hostility he's showing.

Apparently "I have nothing against blind people, I just happen to think this idea, this one right here, the one that involves the comic, not blind people in general, just the comics-for-the-blind-idea, is stupid" is just too deeply intellectual for people here to grasp. I guess the only reason for all the HOSTILITY in here is that everyone was molested by someone who had a different opinion to theirs.

Considering I think I'm probably the only one here who's actually ever volunteered with the blind, I honestly don't think I have fuck all to prove, but it doesn't mean I can't get tired of this OMGROBBYHAETSDABLIND bullshit.

I think it is the vehemence of your views, combined with the fact that you believe NOTHING can be done to improve the online experience of sight-impaired people which has upset a few people and quite rightly so.

I think that my suggestion of a bigger resolution version of your comic and using larger fonts for text and maybe even using Flash or similar technologies for aural clues to speech balloons can be done if somebody is willing to take the extra trouble. But I'm mostly in agreement that it might not be practical for everybody to implement.

The bigger sized image is definitely an option though which can help SIGHT impaired people though maybe not the totally blind.

[McDuffies]

I changed my mind. I think that Robby was molested by a person with a sence of humor.

[Wendybird]

Since I'm an author, and both my comics began their lives as drafts of novels, I have thought that once they're done I will translate them back to novel form. For my comics specifically, I think an audio-book version would be the best way for a vision-impaired person to experience them. You've certainly given me more motivation to make that happen.

There are a few comic strips that I experience through my friends reading aloud to me. I prefer to read them myself, but hearing the dialog from the strips is definitely better than nothing if it's a witty strip on a subject that appeals to me. I would hope that most blind people have a friend as nice as mine who is able to read comic strips to them. If blind people can't get nice friends to help them there is no hope for web accessibility anyway. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't try to make your own strip accessible if you feel inclined to do so, but I am probably one of many comic artists who don't feel that it's the best use of their time.

[Mattias]

Not agreeing with something doesn't make it okay to repeatedly ridicule it...

Anyway, there are actually comic books for blind people. Granted, it's more like an audio book than an actual comic, but it apparently works. Who'd have thunk?

[NinjaNezumi]

yes, thank you ^_^

You are right it does take a little extra effort.

I was planning on putting Page 6 of my comic today, complete with audio for my Andrew Colon and Panda King. Unfortunately I just worked 6 hours on page 6, and am so wiped I cannot work on my website. I'm also starting to get yet another migraine -_- :sigh: But page 6 is finished, it is a .jpg right now on my harddrive. yay All of the adnrew colon pages are *.swf format and that means all I need to do is format my html.

I'd like to take credit for this being a new idea, but it isn't. lil'Abner was read on the radio world wide when he got married to Daisy Mae. I searched but I cannot find the estimated number of listeners, but it was huge. So powerful was the effect that in fact that the writers of MASH had to put it in one of their episodes when they hit that date in the series.


btw: if anyone thinks they are interested enough that they might want me to prep a script or an audio file for their comics, I'll be happy to work something out for trade. If you don't like the audio or my script that's fine - I won't ask for anything if you don't use it ^_^

[Evil Jamie!]

Honestly, If I had the sight impaired in mind when I started my comic, I would have made it a novel.

[RPin]

Not agreeing with something doesn't make it okay to repeatedly ridicule it...

Anyway, there are actually comic books for blind people. Granted, it's more like an audio book than an actual comic, but it apparently works. Who'd have thunk?

That's the point he and some other people are trying to make. If you take the visual experience of a comic it shouldn't be called a comic anymore.

[NinjaNezumi]

Not agreeing with something doesn't make it okay to repeatedly ridicule it...

Anyway, there are actually comic books for blind people. Granted, it's more like an audio book than an actual comic, but it apparently works. Who'd have thunk?

That's the point he and some other people are trying to make. If you take the visual experience of a comic it shouldn't be called a comic anymore.

The definition of comic is not exclusive to the drawn image. In fact, the idea of visual experience being critical to "comic strips" is only recent by the last 40 years, especially with radio transmitting comics by voice throughout the 50s. Considering that "comic oriented images" have been around since greeks...

[War]

Words in the english language can have multiple meanings. Wonders piled upon wonders right here.

[Kirb]

A comic, by modern definition and most certainly these circumstances, is a piece of sequential art.

So no.

[RPin]

May be inadequate to post this, but the whole discussion made me remember this old satire of deaf guys who did a dance skit.

[Phact0rri]

As having worked with the diabled (and also as many know... having dated for a number of years someone who is disabled), as well as been active in the rights of the disabled I thought I'd chime in a bit.

One can change the medium to a different format for others to enjoy. It may be different, but a good story can hold up in various media. Of course if were talking of enjoying a Comic in a non-visual format, I agree that we are not really addressing the medium. But instead addressing the source material and putting it into a different format.

Its like the Musical bit, or better yet an opera. You can read an opera and it can be a good story, but its not an opera anymore, its a story. the deaf cannot appreciate the music, because of their disability. And like wise a blind person cannot appreciate visual arts because of their disability. Its unfair but truely the deaf and blind have over come many obstacles in their lives, that I doubt not being able to read the watchmen really factors into their concerns.

That being said I think that putting a story in another format with thoughts to the disabled is relatively careless. I say this because by changing a comic into an audio book you are not by any means cattering to the needs of the disabled. You are infact just making an audio book, and changing formats. Which is interesting and more power to you. But I find it hard to believe that in such a format, it is really solely going to be used by the blind who can't read a regular comic book. It is about as much to catering the needs of the blind as a audiobook novelzation of a hit movie.

However I must say, alternative ways to allow for other sensory to take part in an art experience with thoughts to the visually disabled is really an interesting topic. But I'm hard pressed to wonder if a blind person would really be interested in such a thing.

I do think radio plays using stories from comics could be a lot of fun. and allowing sound design to really take over in place of visual arts could be for a fun project. But it'd not just be for the disabled, and it shouldn't just be for the disabled. And calling something like this a tool for the disabled is more insulting than it is worth.

Most disabled people don't want special treatment. they want to be treated like everyone else. There are of course many obvious exceptions on the more practical side of living while being disabled. This is why "audio comics" like Kingdom come and the Death of Superman, are not labeled "for the visually impaired" but I'm sure there are some people greatful and entertained by these products.

[Killbert-Robby]

As having worked with the diabled (and also as many know... having dated for a number of years someone who is disabled), as well as been active in the rights of the disabled I thought I'd chime in a bit.

One can change the medium to a different format for others to enjoy. It may be different, but a good story can hold up in various media. Of course if were talking of enjoying a Comic in a non-visual format, I agree that we are not really addressing the medium. But instead addressing the source material and putting it into a different format.

Its like the Musical bit, or better yet an opera. You can read an opera and it can be a good story, but its not an opera anymore, its a story. the deaf cannot appreciate the music, because of their disability. And like wise a blind person cannot appreciate visual arts because of their disability. Its unfair but truely the deaf and blind have over come many obstacles in their lives, that I doubt not being able to read the watchmen really factors into their concerns.

That being said I think that putting a story in another format with thoughts to the disabled is relatively careless. I say this because by changing a comic into an audio book you are not by any means cattering to the needs of the disabled. You are infact just making an audio book, and changing formats. Which is interesting and more power to you. But I find it hard to believe that in such a format, it is really solely going to be used by the blind who can't read a regular comic book. It is about as much to catering the needs of the blind as a audiobook novelzation of a hit movie.

However I must say, alternative ways to allow for other sensory to take part in an art experience with thoughts to the visually disabled is really an interesting topic. But I'm hard pressed to wonder if a blind person would really be interested in such a thing.

I do think radio plays using stories from comics could be a lot of fun. and allowing sound design to really take over in place of visual arts could be for a fun project. But it'd not just be for the disabled, and it shouldn't just be for the disabled. And calling something like this a tool for the disabled is more insulting than it is worth.

Most disabled people don't want special treatment. they want to be treated like everyone else. There are of course many obvious exceptions on the more practical side of living while being disabled. This is why "audio comics" like Kingdom come and the Death of Superman, are not labeled "for the visually impaired" but I'm sure there are some people greatful and entertained by these products.

*slowly reclines into his chair* Oh God some sense comes afloat in here. Tell me Phact, is it ironic that so far both people who've worked with the disabled think this isn't a great idea? <_<

[NinjaNezumi]

A comic, by modern definition and most certainly these circumstances, is a piece of sequential art.

So no.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/comic



Main Entry:
1com·ic Listen to the pronunciation of 1comic
Pronunciation:
\ˈkä-mik\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Latin comicus, from Greek kōmikos, from kōmos revel
Date:
1576

1 : of, relating to, or marked by comedy <a comic actor> 2 : causing laughter or amusement : funny <a comic monologue> 3 : of or relating to comic strips <the newspaper's comic section>
synonyms see laughable


Every single comic on this keenspot webring violates multiple definitions of the word comic.

Even that definition of Mirriam Webster is partially incorrect.

Comic/Comedy simply means inclusion of light material.

The Divine Comedy is very much not a "book containing laughter or comic strips".

That's also why I call my "webcomic" a "Web Manga" because there's very little light material contained therein.

It doesn't matter the medium it remains a comic if it contains the same story elements.



HI Phactorri
Glad you chimed in, though don't think I'll go easy on my response ;D

As having worked with the diabled (and also as many know... having dated for a number of years someone who is disabled), as well as been active in the rights of the disabled I thought I'd chime in a bit.

One can change the medium to a different format for others to enjoy. It may be different, but a good story can hold up in various media. Of course if were talking of enjoying a Comic in a non-visual format, I agree that we are not really addressing the medium. But instead addressing the source material and putting it into a different format.

Its like the Musical bit, or better yet an opera. You can read an opera and it can be a good story, but its not an opera anymore, its a story. the deaf cannot appreciate the music, because of their disability. And like wise a blind person cannot appreciate visual arts because of their disability. Its unfair but truely the deaf and blind have over come many obstacles in their lives, that I doubt not being able to read the watchmen really factors into their concerns.

This is where you are wrong.

An Opera is a very specifically defined margin of parameters used to judge a piece of work contained in the musical medium.

Comics are not, and never have been, a defined set of parameters pertaining to a specific medium.

The words Comic and Comedy refer to the content therein which pertains to all mediums.


Now, it's interesting you try and use Opera to pose this argument, considering the fact that some of the most celebrated operas as well as their musical parents are, in fact, translations of books, plays, or movies. As such, these operas and musicals tend to be adaptations of other works.

Musicals:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Mis%C3%A9rables
http://www.montypythonsspamalot.com/

Operas:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibelung

Any number of adaptations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_of ... aptations)

Garfield remains a Comic Strip character, and yet he has been in multiple T.V. Specials, two Major Motion Pictures as well as a cartoon series.

You are right, those with disabilities do want to and should be treated as equals, however, that doesn't mean I'm going to walk around removing wheelchair ramps from public institutions. What you're talking about can be defined as being patronizing, and that is a completely different issue.

What I'm simply discussing here is adding some audio content to simply offer expanded access to webcontent. There are any number of visually impaired conditions which may make it extremely difficult to read the text on any given image, and providing an audio playback of what the content is not patronizing but rather accommodating.

[Phact0rri]

This is where you are wrong.

An Opera is a very specifically defined margin of parameters used to judge a piece of work contained in the musical medium.

Comics are not, and never have been, a defined set of parameters pertaining to a specific medium.

Well yes and no. Operas are defined by the format and music limitations of the time, much like comic strips. Where as graphic novels and comic books changed this in the way that the post romantic operetta changed how operas are defined.

The words Comic and Comedy refer to the content therein which pertains to all mediums.

You seem to forget that the term "comic" is a shortened version of the word "comicstrip" "comicbook" and "webcomic" which adhere to certain fundamental medium specific rules that other media cannot. However as stated before we are not talking about specific meanings of words. were talking about webcomics as a form of sequencial art media, and how we could address the issues of the visually impared. So this sort of discussion is really just a sidetrip and will do no one any good, to the subject at hand.

Now, it's interesting you try and use Opera to pose this argument, considering the fact that some of the most celebrated operas as well as their musical parents are, in fact, translations of books, plays, or movies. As such, these operas and musicals tend to be adaptations of other works.

Trust me here when I say, I'm well aware that many operas and musicals were adaptions of novels and folk lore, like wise I'm aware that adaptions exist. I believe in my earlier post I mentioned that a good story can be adapted, and done well. there are quite a few operas and musicals that are much better suited for the written word in my opinion. However I think you may have missed my point. Phantom of the Opera is a novel and is a Musical. The Novel is not the musical for the hearing impaired. [/quote]

What I'm simply discussing here is adding some audio content to simply offer expanded access to webcontent. There are any number of visually impaired conditions which may make it extremely difficult to read the text on any given image, and providing an audio playback of what the content is not patronizing but rather accommodating.

Earlier someone mentioned, larger text for people who just have trouble seeing and making scaleable graphics and text, I believe is the most you can do to make a webcomic accessable for the visually disabled. However as I mentioned before making an audio supplement of you story available for people to use is great. But I do find that if you market an audio suppliment of a webcomic for a blind person you may not mean to come across patronizing, but it really feels that way.

As someone mentioned earlier about having a friend read the comic to them and describe the panels. Does a blind person really need to be reminded what they can't do? IE enjoy a comic strip?

[Evil Jamie!]

Dude, just because you busted out the dictionary and hit us with the literal definition of the word 'comic' doesn't actually change anything here.
Would it help if I called comics visual novels? Picture stories? Sequential art with words?
The only reason that comics are called comics is because in the 1900 newspaper strips were all of a comical nature. They were also called the funnies, but the term comic became the more popular choice.

Personally I have not considered making and audio version for the visually impaired, and doubt I ever will. Something important would be lost in translation and that is not only the art, but the style it's drawn in. The words and the pictures play off each other and converting it to another medium, especially one without any kind of visual feedback would make it a lesser thing.
I'm sorry to say it, but if you're blind then I am making something that is not for you. It sucks, but I just can't make something for everyone.

Edit: Ack, Phact0rri, you are faster than meeeeee.

[Turnsky]

*stuff*

Congratulations, you have your "using google" badge.

now go for your Netiquitte badge >=3

by your same logic, i looked up "Cartoon" one such definition proved interesting
"2. A preliminary sketch similar in size to the work, such as a fresco, that is to be copied from it."

overall, the fact that it's a word doesn't mean its actual use is set in stone.

[Phact0rri]

Edit: Ack, Phact0rri, you are faster than meeeeee.

Its okay Jamie... your day will come!

[NinjaNezumi]

This is where you are wrong.

An Opera is a very specifically defined margin of parameters used to judge a piece of work contained in the musical medium.

Comics are not, and never have been, a defined set of parameters pertaining to a specific medium.

Well yes and no. Operas are defined by the format and music limitations of the time, much like comic strips. Where as graphic novels and comic books changed this in the way that the post romantic operetta changed how operas are defined.

sorry bud this isn't set in stone statement, not a yes and no. Comics do not and never have had a set of parameters defining them within a medium.

Operas do:

An Opera must contain four and only four pieces of music to which the entire context of the operetta is set. They must be repeated in specific intervals - the introduction of both Hero, Heroine and Villain must be performed through three of these for pieces by what has since been defined as a soloist heavyweight piece.


Also graphic novels aren't a great position to discuss any form of standard for the comic book industry, as a lot of people currently argue over the format concept of graphic novels.

The words Comic and Comedy refer to the content therein which pertains to all mediums.

You seem to forget that the term "comic" is a shortened version of the word "comicstrip" "comicbook" and "webcomic" which adhere to certain fundamental medium specific rules that other media cannot. However as stated before we are not talking about specific meanings of words. were talking about webcomics as a form of sequencial art media, and how we could address the issues of the visually impared. So this sort of discussion is really just a sidetrip and will do no one any good, to the subject at hand.

The arguement was posted that it would cease to be a comic, and I was pointing out that position was posed through the false pretense that comics ever had any sort of definition. They don't.

Now, it's interesting you try and use Opera to pose this argument, considering the fact that some of the most celebrated operas as well as their musical parents are, in fact, translations of books, plays, or movies. As such, these operas and musicals tend to be adaptations of other works.

Trust me here when I say, I'm well aware that many operas and musicals were adaptions of novels and folk lore, like wise I'm aware that adaptions exist. I believe in my earlier post I mentioned that a good story can be adapted, and done well. there are quite a few operas and musicals that are much better suited for the written word in my opinion. However I think you may have missed my point. Phantom of the Opera is a novel and is a Musical. The Novel is not the musical for the hearing impaired.

[/quote]

No, actually, the point you were trying to support was that you were trying to draw parallels between a very defined structured portion of a larger medium (the opera) and an undefined conceptual production (the comic).

I was pointing out to you it was a false analogy. It'd be best if you picked something other than opera for that debate proposal.

It was also argued that it would be impossible and not worth the time to even try to translate something from one medium to another, and yet that's exactly what novels, plays, musicals and operas do with great success - i.e. even the creator of the piece him or herself does not know what will and will not be successful until they try it. The literal definition of the word Comic transcends mediums - so it still would be a comic even if it's a novel or a drawn picture.

What I'm simply discussing here is adding some audio content to simply offer expanded access to webcontent. There are any number of visually impaired conditions which may make it extremely difficult to read the text on any given image, and providing an audio playback of what the content is not patronizing but rather accommodating.

Earlier someone mentioned, larger text for people who just have trouble seeing and making scaleable graphics and text, I believe is the most you can do to make a webcomic accessable for the visually disabled. However as I mentioned before making an audio supplement of you story available for people to use is great. But I do find that if you market an audio suppliment of a webcomic for a blind person you may not mean to come across patronizing, but it really feels that way.

As someone mentioned earlier about having a friend read the comic to them and describe the panels. Does a blind person really need to be reminded what they can't do? IE enjoy a comic strip?

My teacher at Arapahoe Community College disagrees with you, he is deaf, and while not blind, clearly believes that websites should make themselves accessible to those with hearing impairment.

The creators of lil'abner had his entire strip read aloud on the raidio world wide for not just the blind but those without newspapers.

Large Text does not solve all the problems with visually impairments. Dyslexia is also a form of impairment which some argue is visual.

To top it off I linked a website whose entire organization disagrees with you and actuall has web classes telling people how to make their websites accessible to the visually impaired - that includes graphical elements. Creating accessibility is not "reminding someone of what they can and can't do". Denying accessibility IS "reminding someone of what they can and can't do."

I'm afraid I lost my wyoming college website link thingy but here's a search which lists several major colleges and government agencies that advocate exactly what I suggest in this thread ^_^
http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8 ... ired&type=

I'm sorry, I'm not going to agree with you on this, bud. but, friends still?

[Killbert-Robby]

This is where you are wrong.

An Opera is a very specifically defined margin of parameters used to judge a piece of work contained in the musical medium.

Comics are not, and never have been, a defined set of parameters pertaining to a specific medium.

Well yes and no. Operas are defined by the format and music limitations of the time, much like comic strips. Where as graphic novels and comic books changed this in the way that the post romantic operetta changed how operas are defined.

sorry bud this isn't set in stone statement, not a yes and no. Comics do not and never have had a set of parameters defining them within a medium.

God, just, Jesus, stop. YES art can be in different mediums. A comic can be made in ink, markers, paint. But the STRUCTURE is set in stone. If it's a comic*strip*, its a strip of sequential images. If there are no images, it's not a comic strip. Let's not turn this into an etymology debate. A comic can be a PERSON who's funny, but he's not a comic strip. I can't pick up an album, a set of songs after another, and say HEY LOOK ITS A COMIC. There are so many ways you could be arguing this, but God's sake don't say a comic isn't a series of images one after another.

Especially because, by your definition of a comic :
1 : of, relating to, or marked by comedy <a comic actor> 2 : causing laughter or amusement : funny <a comic monologue>
YOU DON'T MAKE A COMIC

Fuckkkkkkk the stupid things I'm reduced to arguing on the internet.

This isn't as open ended as you make it out to be, its very black and white, Phact is right, you are wrong, in this regard. The ethics of supporting the handicapped, sure, thats a grey area, but not this.