Serious Race Question in Entertainment Industry

[Isukiyomi]

Although, this falls more under the heading of, "Good grief, respect the dying man's wishes for his life's work for Pete's sake."

Don't you know, the dead have no rights...unless you set up a super estate in a will...you know have it preserve your good name and all that jazz...

I think what I'm going to do is advertise for what work the cover art will be, and just see who answers the ad. I could put an advertisement first in a predominately black college see if there are any skilled art students who are interested as well as deviantART. Maybe get two or three covers and use them all at various points. This way it's not like I'm saying "Only black artists apply" and instead just seeing who exactly is interested in working on this. It'll be a sort of first three to respond type of deal. I still haven't figured out where I can advertise for it either so that's another hurdle I've got to overcome.

Advertising at black colleges sounds like a good starting point; I guess it depends on how many are around you and what their ads spaces are like...

Everyone I've ever quoted that lyric to says: "SHAFT!" after I finish the line. Of course, the song more or less just writes itself. But the point is he was supposed to appeal just to the black community, and yet he gained world wide appeal and notariety because his character was well written and understandable.

I attribute that to the awesomeness of Issac Hayes. I never knew the song was for a movie until many, many years later.

[Rkolter]

Although, this falls more under the heading of, "Good grief, respect the dying man's wishes for his life's work for Pete's sake."

Don't you know, the dead have no rights...unless you set up a super estate in a will...you know have it preserve your good name and all that jazz...

Yeah, it's not illegal. But jeez.

[Phalanx]

But you also can't sell if you don't do some sort of demographic targeting.

I agree you probably should have a target audience in mind, I just don't think that something as unchangeable and unreliable as "race" should be it....

Good advice. Nice to see you back here, doling it out.

I've been lurking around for quite a bit actually. I just don't post unless I find a topic that interests me.

[Phalanx]

Phalanx, that's just it though. I do want to appeal to the black men and women of this country, but I also want universal appeal

Well... just saying: logically... "appealing to black men and women" is a subset of "universal appeal", no?

If you aim for universal appeal, but stay true to your vision of portraying a realistic black hero, you should be able to appeal to your original target audience anyway.

[Phalanx]

But let's say I'm interested in (let me think of something) err... Formula One racing. So you have a superhero whose occupation is working for a F1 team, or maybe he's a driver, or a member of a pit crew. And he does his good deeds in the alter ego while his F1 team tours around the world... Now my interest WOULD be piqued.

How did you know I was working on a Formula 1 themed superhero comic!?!

CORPORATE ESPIONAGE!!!!

duh duh duhhhhhhh



Sorry I couldn't resist.

I can see the headlines already.

MCDUFFIGATE SCANDAL ROCKS COMICGENESIS!

Incidentally NN, have you read Magellan or Mindmistress before? Both are examples of how superhero webcomics can transcend their genre. Magellan is interesting in that the creator takes pains to create a realistic and logical superhero world, while Mindmistress is notable for having a protagonist with a learning disability. A recent comic I read, The Pen, has a interesting portrayal as well.

[Isukiyomi]

Although, this falls more under the heading of, "Good grief, respect the dying man's wishes for his life's work for Pete's sake."

Don't you know, the dead have no rights...unless you set up a super estate in a will...you know have it preserve your good name and all that jazz...

Yeah, it's not illegal. But jeez.

This is why we need that zombie making machine completed pronto!

[NinjaNezumi]

Phalanx, that's just it though. I do want to appeal to the black men and women of this country, but I also want universal appeal

Well... just saying: logically... "appealing to black men and women" is a subset of "universal appeal", no?

If you aim for universal appeal, but stay true to your vision of portraying a realistic black hero, you should be able to appeal to your original target audience anyway.

In the immortal words of Ed:

"You are correct, sir!"

[Samuli]

In partial response to the post above I don't think what I discussed qualifies as charity. If it were charity I wouldn't care about the artist's skills, but I definitely care about skills. Those who don't know me I enjoy this type of discussion, sometimes I get real into it, but I don't want to offend anyone. IF you want to call it quits just say quits I won't reply ^_^

You're right, it's not exactly charity either - the English word is a bit different from the Finnish counterpart. But I wanted to make a point about "solidarity" and I stand by that point. For my part, I also enjoy heated discussions as long as they stay intelligent, like this one.

Storm (Arguably the most famous black superhero) ------- storm is an angry black woman, who had no character development until well after Earth X.

I'm an X-men-fan so I say, huh, what?! (Skip the rest if you're not interested in X-men...)

Storm began as the "innocent native" who didn't understand the "harsh reality" of urban USA. When the Byrne era began she began to change and had really interesting inner conflicts while coming to grips with the violent outside world. This culminated in her change to the mohawk and leather -outfit. At this point she really became the angry black woman - probably the only one on the comics scene with this much foundation laid beneath the anger.

After the loss of her powers there was again a very interesting period when she searched for her place in the world. She came back and took control of the X-men from Cyclops. That was another very well done character developement. It's only after Jim Lee debuted on the X-men that the dark ages began and the only thing that changed for a long time after that was the bikini line.

Now, I know this is ancient history for most of you but the original second group X-men were a collection of the most delicious characters the industry has seen! Most of the post eighties writers either didn't bother to take advantage of the in-built conflicts all the characters had or didn't have the skill to do it but they're there. Whedon knew how to do it in Astonishing X-men.

Just to elaborate a bit further, Cyclops is actually a very interesting character but he's so often misused by writers that it's difficult to see. He's this incredibly capable tactical genius who can't handle the pressure of being in control. Grant Morrison used him really well on his run of New X-men.

The original second X-men was really a model example of an ethnic group - there was a Russian, an African (make-belief country though), a Canadian, a German, a native American, a Scot and a Japanese character (correct me if I forgot someone). That's going for universal appeal for you! Pretty much everything is represented. The whole global village idea kind of faded after a while but initially it was very strong and as I understand pretty unheard of.

ok I'll stop rambling now .

[NinjaNezumi]

pls forgive my spelling it's 3:30am for me.

I hope you don't think I was bashing the X-Men, well ok, I hate the newer runs, but I loved the comics in the late 80s and early-mid90s.

I also liked Storm.

However, she was the "Bad Girl" of the group. I have more than a few comics where she get all angsty like wolverine and a couple where she was overboard on her anger and hatred.

Now, with the X-Men it's more or less "expected". The X Men were called the X-Men because of Malcolm X, although, it was really Magneto who was modeled after Malcolm X (at least the violent protagonist early years of Malcolm), and Professor X was an amalgamation of a number of civil rights leaders, though mostly martin luther king jr.

so with that backhistory, it makes sense that a number of mutants such as storm or wolverine would have these strong emotional states. Even Jean Grey goes absolutely psycho half the time. It's just that in the comic, Storm always seemed to be just a bit pissy when I was collecting it. I do hear however that she's "settled down" now that she's married to the new horrible "retconned" version of T'Chala.

[Samuli]

I hope you don't think I was bashing the X-Men, well ok, I hate the newer runs, but I loved the comics in the late 80s and early-mid90s.

I also liked Storm.

However, she was the "Bad Girl" of the group. I have more than a few comics where she get all angsty like wolverine and a couple where she was overboard on her anger and hatred.

Oh no, I didn't think you were bashing, I just disagreed about Storm's lack of character developement. And I think people should be able to dislike the X-men if they like I'm not sure how the chronology goes in the US, late 80's - 90's is the Australia phase or what? I guess you could say I'm a fan of the late 70's and early 80's X-men from the beginning of the Byrne era up until the death and rebirth and move to Australia. I also very much like Grant Morrison's and Joss Whedon's work, which I already mentioned.

I would still argue that Psylocke was the "bad girl" more than Storm. Storm's rage-o-holism only lasted a few years, in my opinion, from the mohawk to the move to Australia. I can't say for sure since I haven't really read the later X-men that much.

The X Men were called the X-Men because of Malcolm X, although, it was really Magneto who was modeled after Malcolm X (at least the violent protagonist early years of Malcolm), and Professor X was an amalgamation of a number of civil rights leaders, though mostly martin luther king jr.

Hmm, I'm a bit dubious... The original name for the X-men was "The Mutants" and the first team was made up of WASPs (Cyclops, Angel, Iceman, Jean Grey, Beast still in human form). I know the characters have been compared to many people but I was under the impression that the "X" was there simply because the comics code denied the use of more scintillating words. The first stories had nothing to do with racism. Has Stan Lee said somewhere that the name was intentionally taken from Malcolm X? I would presume that the premise of the X-men would have originally had more to do with the German holocaust. Oh great, Godwin's, now I lost the argument...

[NinjaNezumi]

Hrm I might be off on when I collected the comics, but I'm pretty sure it was 80s to early 90s, I remember her being more than a little pissy.

Yes Psylocke was a bad girl, a bad assassin girl. So was Rogue for that matter.

I've got a reprint of the first X-Men comic, it was Uncanny X-Men not "the Mutants". you can read it online (legally providing subscription) at http://www.marvel.com/digitalcomics/tit ... Men.1963.1 Now if they appeared prior to this then they did, and the name just hadn't been solidified? But I thought this was their first appearance...

But yes, Stan Lee did say that in an interview (that's where I got it, I don't buy into internet gossip reports). He combined a lot of aspects. At the time it was inconceivable that a black superhero team could survive so he had to liken the X-Men's plight to something with which "white america" could identify - hence holocaust. But the X in X-Men was a small reference to Malcolm X.

[Samuli]

Hrm I might be off on when I collected the comics, but I'm pretty sure it was 80s to early 90s, I remember her being more than a little pissy.

What I was referring to was that in Finland X-men came out in a very different order than in the US. We had the Byrne era from -85 to around -87 when there was a considerable leap forward etc. I don't know when the comics came out in the US so if you say you liked 80's and 90's X-men I have no idea what part of the continuum that is. Sorry, I could have been more clear on that.

Well, I stand educated, if Stan said the name came from Malcolm X, then it must have! Thanks. "The Mutants" was Stan Lee's original name for the series. It was never used in publication.

[NinjaNezumi]

It could have been that "The Mutants" was considered as an alternate title if there was opposition to the radical implications of the X in X-Men as relating to Malcolm X.

[Bobadventures]

If you're concerned about portraying black/African culture properly, I would think the bigger concern would be the ethnic background of the writer, rather than the artist. Since you yourself are black, I don't see a cause for concern. At worst, the artist might draw the characters' clothes in a way that most black people don't dress any more, or something like that, but as writer you're in a perfect position to point such minor errors out to the artist, and if he's a pro he shouldn't complain about correcting it.

For whatever it's worth, my favorite monthly comic book is Gold Digger from Antarctic Press. It's produced by Fred Perry, who is black (and a very nice guy, I've met him at conventions), but most of his central characters are white.

One black superhero you didn't mention, of whom I've always been fond, is Monica Rambeau, "Photon" (back in the 80's, she was called Captain Marvel). And of course there's Storm, who is probably the most well-known black superhero. What do you think of the fact that DC has recently incorporated the old Milestone characters (Static's original publisher) into its own continuity?

In my own webcomic ("The Inexplicable Adventures of Bob!"), I've often regretted that all my (human) main characters are white, but the reason is simply that when I invented them years ago (it began life as a print comic, and only moved to the web three years ago), I wasn't a good enough artist back then to draw racial features convincingly in a black and white comic. In the U.S., readers automatically assume that a nondescript cartoon character is white; just as in Japan, readers assume a nondescript character is Japanese. Looking back, I could easily have declared Jean to be black without changing a thing, but it never occurred to me to do so until I'd already printed some color illustrations of her as white. (Since Bob is supposed to be bourgeois "averageness" incarnate, or at least what Americans perceive to be average, he kind of has to be white, but I could easily have made his girlfriend Jean black.) I am trying to diversify the cast a bit these days—Herb the garden shop owner is supposed to be black (I hope readers can tell! Sheesh, my art...), and Akbar is intended to be Pakistani; and I may declare Mrs. Primrose to be black—but my few central characters are pretty well established.

[Killbert-Robby]

I don't know why race is an issue. I mean, I know why, but I never understand these kind of conversations. People get all heat up about racism, but if your comic just so happens to have only white people, so what. You cast the best people for the job, once you start going "Well I need some black guys cause I don't want to be racist", malicious or not, that in it's very self is racist, because you're starting to consciously differentiate between people by color.
Especially, if you don't actually want to put a person in your comic, but you feel you have to, you probably won't even be able to write for them, and just end up being offensive (To the kind of snobby people that are offended by that sort of stuff), like Dr Jerome Shaniqua.

[Bobadventures]

I don't know why race is an issue. I mean, I know why, but I never understand these kind of conversations. People get all heat up about racism, but if your comic just so happens to have only white people, so what. You cast the best people for the job, once you start going "Well I need some black guys cause I don't want to be racist", malicious or not, that in it's very self is racist, because you're starting to consciously differentiate between people by color.
Especially, if you don't actually want to put a person in your comic, but you feel you have to, you probably won't even be able to write for them, and just end up being offensive (To the kind of snobby people that are offended by that sort of stuff), like Dr Jerome Shaniqua.

It has just always bothered me that the "default" setting for characters in American fiction has always been white male, when that obviously is not representative of the real world American population; therefore, I regret contributing to that trend.

In the case of my new characters, I did not add them just to have some multi-ethnic characters. I was going to introduce new characters to fill those slots anyway, and so I decided to go ahead and make them other ethnicities. It is not my intent for them to be tokens, and I hope they don't come across that way.

I remember a short story I wrote for a class in college, and the teacher asked why I had made the protagonist black, since it didn't seem essential to the story. I answered that there was no particular reason, and that that was the reason.

[VeryCuddlyCornpone]

It has just always bothered me that the "default" setting for characters in American fiction has always been white male, when that obviously is not representative of the real world American population; therefore, I regret contributing to that trend.

Well, although you can find men and women pretty equally distributed around the US, in many areas white is kind of the default... uh... skin to have. Different areas may have more Latino influence, Asian influence, African influence, et cetera, but in some places you're hard pressed to find people that aren't caucasian. I think in my graduating class of ~150 we had less than five black kids, less than five Asian kids, a handful of Indian kids (like India Indian not Native American), and less than ten of other minorities I'm trying to picture. I'm in an area that's fairly close to some hefty cities though, which is where you start to find a lot more minorities. It really does depend where you are.

Not that that excuses lazy writing. And doesn't really excuse making male characters the default either. But a lot of people for some reason have problems writing a female character- people start worrying, they want to make her attractive to men but not offensive to women, they get scared and hide and shy away from including them instead. Even I had some trouble with this for a long time, and I'm a girl. I guess male is easier to make as the default gender since in this society it's not as difficult to create a man without having to make him sexualized somehow.


My mind isn't making good words lately so I think this was probably all gobbledeygook. Yesterday I spelled the word present with a B and no R. Hope my post made sense.

[McDuffies]

It has just always bothered me that the "default" setting for characters in American fiction has always been white male, when that obviously is not representative of the real world American population; therefore, I regret contributing to that trend.

I remember a short story I wrote for a class in college, and the teacher asked why I had made the protagonist black, since it didn't seem essential to the story. I answered that there was no particular reason, and that that was the reason.

It's a good reason. I live in pretty much all-white surrounding, and adding characters of other colour would take a certain effort on my part, I'd have to intentionally go and create a character of different colour in clash with writing from my experience, just a leap from my "default", if you know what I mean, it'd be a case of "token black guy" more than anything else. I assume that for a person living in a racially mixed enviroment, making an all-white comic would be the same kind of stretch.
Why it happens often anyway, well I think that the thing is that most of authors don't really rely on their experience and look up to pop culture, films, series, etc, more than they really should. All-white casts prevail because they have prevailed in movies and series before, and even people who live in racially mixed surrounding often have all-white set as "default" for writing fiction. And USA is pretty much a default for pop culture in general, which is why you'll find so many non-american comics or films being set in USA anyways. But it's a sort of "fictional America", one that comes more from pop-culture stereotypes of the land than from knowledge. Like, if the story happens in New York, if the author isn't a devoted New-Yorkian himself, the setting will be stereotypical New York that people knows about movies, and one of consequences will be, for instance, all-white cast in areas where that's not very probable.

[Alias Pseudonym]

If the artist isn't writing I don't think it makes a huge amount of difference. It's the writer that creates the story, after all. Just make sure the artist doesn't do a bad job.

The importance of a character's ethnicity all depends on the setting, I'd say. If you're story is about a black guy in pre-civil war era USA, lets say, trying to rescue slaves from the South, then his being black is going to be huge in this story. If it's X-men, the X-men can't actually get much more persecuted than they already are, so someone like Storm is a black female MUTANT in that story. And if your telling a story set far in the future in space where humanity has met one or two aliens and decided to discriminate along more interesting lines than skin colour, your character's race might just be cosmetic and a totally irrelevant part of their identity.

[Redtech]

Also, one has to avoid stereotypes and cliches! I'm a black Brit, so relate more to exessive drinking of tea and alcohol than popping caps in people asses. There's no singular black culture even within nations and the difference are even greater internationally. One also has class/background issues to attend with and even the cultural "era" and gender has huge impacts on attitude and behaviour.

If in doubt, there's always the DemoMan from Team Fortress 2.