On Obtaining a Tablet...

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Re: On Obtaining a Tablet...

Post by Linkara »

Terotrous wrote:
KittyKatBlack wrote:
It does. It's called an eraser. A pen, however, is a completely different story...
Undoing is so much better, though, it's much faster and it can get rid of only your last brush stroke, as opposed to "an area of your drawing". Once you undo you can't ever go back (that's kind of ironic).

Of course techically you could get one of those eraseable pens or use whiteout.
Well, that's the thing - if I erase too much or it turns out that the first was actually not all that bad, I can use the history bar to go back to it, fix a little bit of it, and then continue. Erasers it's all or nothing. ^_~ Not to mention variable eraser size. I've had occasions where I just want to fix a teensy little part of an eye I was drawing but I couldn't without sacrificing the whole eye.

ETA: Also, good to see you're up and running again, KKB!
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Re: On Obtaining a Tablet...

Post by McDuffies »

Metruis wrote: And... yeah... even though I agree 'different strokes for different folks', I entirely disagree that 'Photoshop can emulate any other drawing tool'. No, it can't. (Photoshop is equally a pain in the arse and it takes forever to figure out how to get the effects of different medias and the right brushes for these, anyway. ><) There's a distinct look to digital art and it can NEVER, never replace traditional. If you've ever spent time with watercolors or pencils and loved them, you'd understand. Photoshop can simply not replace the look and feel of using your hands to create art. It can create some damn good art, sure. It can create a lot more variety than my choice for inking, which is the same as yours. But it can't emulate everything, and not with the same detail and gritty and accidental colors mixing together and spilling ink and ending up with cool blotches chaoticness of traditional art.
Corel Painter can emulate most of drawing or painting techniques that any of us will ever deal with. It's a difficult tool to master, though the original techniques are too.
And when it comes to convenience... a paper can't crash. And corrupt your save. >< Whooops.
It can crumple. Ink can smudge. You can spill coffee on it. Ink of less quality can pale with time, or paper can absorb damp from the air. If anything, I think that computer variant is more reliable.
There is usually a distinct look of digital art, although I think that it's up to skills and actual intention of the artist - I've seen very skillful people being able, using Painter, to draw and paint art that is impossible to distinct from that made on paper. But artists who ink digitally usually like that modern digital look and that's really what they're going for.

For me, drawing on paper is generally a more pleasurable passtime, since I already spend a lot of time in front of computer on my job, and since the whole feel cannot be emulated by computer.
Drawing on computer is, however, more convenient, what with undo and zoom and many drawing techniques being readily available (as oposed to going to shop and buying tools that aren't always cheap).
Undoing is so much better, though, it's much faster and it can get rid of only your last brush stroke, as opposed to "an area of your drawing". Once you undo you can't ever go back (that's kind of ironic).

Of course techically you could get one of those eraseable pens or use whiteout.
Well, that any many other things: eraser might erase your pencil, but not the scratches it leaves on the paper. Some people dig pencil in so deeply that not all pencils can be erased. Also erasers leave those annoying crumbes of rubber, unless they're kneadders, and kneaders, again, melt during hot days. During erasing, one risks to crumple the paper, smudge the ink, or simply forget to erase some lines, which he only notices when he's already scanned it (that happens to me often). And of course, when you make a mistake in ink, you have to dig out your tempera tube or whatever you use. I specially like how, after I've inked, I can get rid of entire pencils just by erasing the layer.

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Re: On Obtaining a Tablet...

Post by Paul Escobar »

Metruis wrote:And... yeah... even though I agree 'different strokes for different folks', I entirely disagree that 'Photoshop can emulate any other drawing tool'. No, it can't. (Photoshop is equally a pain in the arse and it takes forever to figure out how to get the effects of different medias and the right brushes for these, anyway. ><) There's a distinct look to digital art and it can NEVER, never replace traditional. If you've ever spent time with watercolors or pencils and loved them, you'd understand. Photoshop can simply not replace the look and feel of using your hands to create art. It can create some damn good art, sure. It can create a lot more variety than my choice for inking, which is the same as yours. But it can't emulate everything, and not with the same detail and gritty and accidental colors mixing together and spilling ink and ending up with cool blotches chaoticness of traditional art.
Whether digital is hard to learn is individual. I find Photoshop easy to use. I read the manual. :wink:

Like McDuffies said, you can in fact make digital art that, when printed or presented online, is indistinguishable from the "real thing". It's a matter of skill.

Digital is just another tool in the toolbox for you to use or not as you please. It's by far the most versatile tool available, but whether you'd want it to replace something else is optional, of course. I have worked with pretty much every traditional medium there is - brush/ink, pencil, coal, oil on canvas, acrylics, watercolour, linocut, collage, etc etc etc. Liked most of them, sometimes still use some of them. Except watercolour, which I found really bloody annoying. I'd much rather do a watercolour imitation in Photoshop or Painter than have to mess with the real thing. Different strokes etc.
Metruis wrote:And when it comes to convenience... a paper can't crash. And corrupt your save. >< Whooops.
Again, like McDuffies said, lots of things can go wrong with paper, too. Here's a strip a I drew a few years ago. Ink bottle tipped over:
splat.gif
splat.gif (76.61 KiB) Viewed 2444 times
Incidentally, If anyone would like to make comics entirely digitally, I'd recommend using Manga Studio. Here's what you can do with it.

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Re: On Obtaining a Tablet...

Post by Pimpette »

I could also chip in and add that if you don't want to fork out money for Photoshop, you could go the GIMP route. Takes some getting used to if you've been using stuff like Photoshop, but on the whole it seems to be the same.


And on the subject of tablets: I've been using a 4x5 Wacom graphire2 for... going on six years now. The only problem I've ever had with it is that after a couple years of use the mouse buttons started sticking weirdly - but that's hardly relevant as I don't think anyone buys the tablet for the mouse.
The graphire2 has been a sturdy little thing. It once suffered an unfortunate accident involving a wheely chair and its usb cord, but thanks to my dad and a soldering iron it is repaired perfectly... and has a hilarious seven feet of usb cord now.

I'm not entirely comfortable inking with it; I personally have always preferred inking on paper, but for colouring it is perfect. You adjust to the pen much more quickly than you expect to, and it really is worth the money.

I drool over Cintiqs and I wish I made enough to justify buying one...
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Re: On Obtaining a Tablet...

Post by Wendybird »

I have a question - I'm definitely going to continue my inks by hand, but I was thinking of getting a tablet, since I color all my comics digitally. Here's the problem - I'm left-handed.

I think I'd be more comfortable using a tablet in mouse-mode, but if I held the stylus with my left hand, would my right hand be able to reach the buttons?

I'm also worried about this: if I get a Cintiq and work in pen mode, will my left arm be in danger of hitting random buttons and changing things?

Also there's no room for a tablet in our computer desk setup because we can't put it where the mouse is, the mouse is on the right (I do my coloring work with my non-dominant hand).

I already had similar problems when I got my Palm handheld - the cover flap gets in the way of my hand all the time so I had to take it off, which makes it hard to use as a pocket music player because the buttons keep getting hit. And sometimes the little beast and I disagree about where the stylus is pointing, since I angle it the opposite way a rightie would. I just want to be clear about all the problems before I buy anything this time.

Any suggestions?

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Re: On Obtaining a Tablet...

Post by Paul Escobar »

It shouldn't make a difference whether you're left- or right-handed, as there are buttons on both sides of all Wacom tablets, and you can set each button to perform whichever function you prefer. If you do get into the habit of inadvertently touching the buttons on the tablet, you can disable them and use your keyboard for those functions instead.

I've never tried a Palm handheld, but stylus angle is not a problem on a pen tablet. As long as the pen tip touches the tablet, it works.

Also, pen mode highly recommended for artwork use.

BTW, if you're "only" going to use it for colouring, I'd say a "normal" pen tablet like an Intuous is fully sufficient. A Cintiq is wicked, but pretty much overkill unless you actually draw on it. And any tablet is a great improvement over a mouse.

As for lack of space on the table... um, get a bigger table?

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Re: On Obtaining a Tablet...

Post by K-Dawg »

Pimpette wrote:I could also chip in and add that if you don't want to fork out money for Photoshop, you could go the GIMP route. Takes some getting used to if you've been using stuff like Photoshop, but on the whole it seems to be the same.


And on the subject of tablets: I've been using a 4x5 Wacom graphire2 for... going on six years now. The only problem I've ever had with it is that after a couple years of use the mouse buttons started sticking weirdly - but that's hardly relevant as I don't think anyone buys the tablet for the mouse.
The graphire2 has been a sturdy little thing. It once suffered an unfortunate accident involving a wheely chair and its usb cord, but thanks to my dad and a soldering iron it is repaired perfectly... and has a hilarious seven feet of usb cord now.

I'm not entirely comfortable inking with it; I personally have always preferred inking on paper, but for colouring it is perfect. You adjust to the pen much more quickly than you expect to, and it really is worth the money.

I drool over Cintiqs and I wish I made enough to justify buying one...
What if I told you a certain unbrother of your's may get one? :o
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Re: On Obtaining a Tablet...

Post by Pimpette »

K-Dawg wrote:What if I told you a certain unbrother of your's may get one? :o
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Re: On Obtaining a Tablet...

Post by War »

Having finally used a tablet, I can throw in my 2 cents.

Tablets are easier to use, and far superior to a mouse. However if you suck with traditional media, you'll suck with a tablet. I picked up the pen and the first thing I drew with was this. However I would not recommend anyone to start out with a tablet. The fine motor skills needed are best honed with good old fashioned traditional media, digital media is too easily manipulated and corrected, there are too many crutches. Learn how to draw on paper, where the permanence forces you to gain greater control of your tools. Eventually the tablet will just be another tool you can pick up and use, there's nothing special about it.

As to my preferences, I'll be sticking with traditional media for my proper stuff. Digital inking doesn't lend itself well to the use of templates and rulers, and using photoshop tools for the job gives it a harsh digital feel that I don't like. A digitally straight line is too straight. Also, unless you have a problem with hand cramp, something like the A5 bamboo is more than enough for most webcomic artists.

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Re: On Obtaining a Tablet...

Post by Evil Jamie! »

I recently got myself a cintiq and have found it to be great, nothing can completely replace pencil and paper, but the cintiq does a damn close enough job. for sketches I use painter and its sweet pencil emulating power and for inks I use photoshop because it's so... I dunno, maybe I should try out GIMP?
Either way, it gets the job done! And saves time, which is key. Jack Cannon is tree friendly!
Also, at my last job I used your average Joe Wacom for animation, you get the hang of not looking at your hand soon enough.
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Re: On Obtaining a Tablet...

Post by Redtech »

I hold a pen weird, so ironically, using a tablet I needed to learn how to draw properly just to use the buttons. Saying that, tablets are not bad, but I'm not organised enough to know exactly what I want to draw so at least I can look at something from many angles.
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Re: On Obtaining a Tablet...

Post by The Neko »

War wrote:Having finally used a tablet, I can throw in my 2 cents.

Tablets are easier to use, and far superior to a mouse. However if you suck with traditional media, you'll suck with a tablet. I picked up the pen and the first thing I drew with was this. However I would not recommend anyone to start out with a tablet. The fine motor skills needed are best honed with good old fashioned traditional media, digital media is too easily manipulated and corrected, there are too many crutches. Learn how to draw on paper, where the permanence forces you to gain greater control of your tools. Eventually the tablet will just be another tool you can pick up and use, there's nothing special about it.

As to my preferences, I'll be sticking with traditional media for my proper stuff. Digital inking doesn't lend itself well to the use of templates and rulers, and using photoshop tools for the job gives it a harsh digital feel that I don't like. A digitally straight line is too straight. Also, unless you have a problem with hand cramp, something like the A5 bamboo is more than enough for most webcomic artists.
I'm going to have to agree with the points he made here. If you can't really understand how to create something in a traditional media, you're probably going to struggle just as much in the digital version. No amount of technical gadgetry is going to fix a lack of understanding of fundamentals. It's like believing an expensive electric guitar is going to make a novice guitarist sound pro.
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Re: On Obtaining a Tablet...

Post by Sorcery101 »

Linkara, I think you should learn the drawing basics before spending the money on something as expensive as a tablet, let alone a cintiq.
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Re: On Obtaining a Tablet...

Post by TheSuburbanLetdown »

The Neko wrote:
War wrote:Having finally used a tablet, I can throw in my 2 cents.

Tablets are easier to use, and far superior to a mouse. However if you suck with traditional media, you'll suck with a tablet. I picked up the pen and the first thing I drew with was this. However I would not recommend anyone to start out with a tablet. The fine motor skills needed are best honed with good old fashioned traditional media, digital media is too easily manipulated and corrected, there are too many crutches. Learn how to draw on paper, where the permanence forces you to gain greater control of your tools. Eventually the tablet will just be another tool you can pick up and use, there's nothing special about it.

As to my preferences, I'll be sticking with traditional media for my proper stuff. Digital inking doesn't lend itself well to the use of templates and rulers, and using photoshop tools for the job gives it a harsh digital feel that I don't like. A digitally straight line is too straight. Also, unless you have a problem with hand cramp, something like the A5 bamboo is more than enough for most webcomic artists.
I'm going to have to agree with the points he made here. If you can't really understand how to create something in a traditional media, you're probably going to struggle just as much in the digital version. No amount of technical gadgetry is going to fix a lack of understanding of fundamentals. It's like believing an expensive electric guitar is going to make a novice guitarist sound pro.
I imagine one would struggle more starting out with a tablet if one can't use traditional tools well.
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Re: On Obtaining a Tablet...

Post by Risky »

Bad time for me to add my two cents, but...

I used a jumbo tablet and hated it... it was just too big to be useful. I actually ended up mapping it so that the screen matched only a fraction of its surface. Now I have a 12" tablet laptop and it's better, particularly since I can see what I'm doing specifically. I maxed it out and got it for about $900, but you can go cheaper than that, particularly with older ones. (hp tx line)

Tablet users, is there a graphic software you would recommend if you want to use just the tablet (no keyboard, no special side buttons)? Photoshop is useless for this, you can't undo for example. Paint.NET is slightly better (at least there's an undo button in the gui).

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Re: On Obtaining a Tablet...

Post by War »

TheSuburbanLetdown wrote: I imagine one would struggle more starting out with a tablet if one can't use traditional tools well.
Exactly. It's the whole running before learning how to walk thing.

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Re: On Obtaining a Tablet...

Post by Turnsky »

War wrote:Having finally used a tablet, I can throw in my 2 cents.

Tablets are easier to use, and far superior to a mouse. However if you suck with traditional media, you'll suck with a tablet. I picked up the pen and the first thing I drew with was this. However I would not recommend anyone to start out with a tablet. The fine motor skills needed are best honed with good old fashioned traditional media, digital media is too easily manipulated and corrected, there are too many crutches. Learn how to draw on paper, where the permanence forces you to gain greater control of your tools. Eventually the tablet will just be another tool you can pick up and use, there's nothing special about it.

As to my preferences, I'll be sticking with traditional media for my proper stuff. Digital inking doesn't lend itself well to the use of templates and rulers, and using photoshop tools for the job gives it a harsh digital feel that I don't like. A digitally straight line is too straight. Also, unless you have a problem with hand cramp, something like the A5 bamboo is more than enough for most webcomic artists.
He speaks the truth, speaking as somebody who works in both traditional and digital mediums, it'll make your life a whole lot easier if one learns the traditional skills with pencils and paper first.
A tablet just makes things easier, provided you A) know the basics, and B) have the patience and time to utilise a tablet, because some of them have a certain amount of hand-eye coordination to it..
For now, just get the A5 bamboo like war suggested, that way you can at least do the steps beyond inking (such as coloring, cel shading, etc) without too much hassle, but leave the digital sketching/inking to a point where you are absolutely confident in your traditional inking skills.
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Re: On Obtaining a Tablet...

Post by Joel Fagin »

War wrote:
TheSuburbanLetdown wrote: I imagine one would struggle more starting out with a tablet if one can't use traditional tools well.
Exactly. It's the whole running before learning how to walk thing.
I disagree. I don't think a tablet would slow down your learning. So what if you learn to draw on a tablet? I learnt to draw with a biro in the margins of my class notes during college lectures. The tablet would take getting used to if you started in a another medium, sure, but what wouldn't?

I can't see anything intrinsic to a tablet which would make it harder to learn how to draw using it. In fact, given the method I used to first kick my art to a higher level of quality,* undo and the other digital crutches would have been a huge plus for me. I was doing the same stuff anyway, just in slow, annoying paper-based ways.

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* I spent three months getting one picture perfect. It was traced, retraced, made in pieces and assembled on the computer, blown up and traced so I could add detail and then shrunk again to fit... all that stuff. By the end, though, I could draw heaps better than when I started.
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Re: On Obtaining a Tablet...

Post by Deathbringer »

I can't get on with drawing in tablets at all, however for 'cleaning up' messy lines that have gone "out of bounds", making black shading solid, creating speech bubbles etc... i can't live without one. It's also useful for using dodge and burn to shade colour drawings (though i do very few of those) and to do things like smoke, fire and splattering blood. But the drawing ITSELF i still do on paper.

BONUS TABLET TIP: Keep the pen vertical at all times when it's plugged in, stick a lump of blue-tak to the wall to hold it vertical and un-plug the tablet and then plug it in again if you arent going to use it for a time. Otherwise the pressure sensitivity will get stuck on 100, and your CPU use will rocket to 100% and it will start moving jerkily when you touch the surface again. At least my Bamboo One does... the old Intuous 2 just randomly decided to disable pressure sensitivity right in the middle of a drawing and it wouldnt turn back on again even if i reinstalled both the tablet and photoshop
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Re: On Obtaining a Tablet...

Post by Phalanx »

I've been using my Graphire 2 for years, when it dies I will get me an Intous but I just love it.

All that said, I prefer my brushes and inks for the actual drawing and inking because of the textural effects I get. I'm a ninkwash addict.

Usually I do the art on traditional media, then add text/borders digitally with my tablet. I used to color using my tablet too.

As for fixing errors, it's a lot easier to do that digitally. You can mimic the textures and cover up a lot of things better than whiteout or whatever.
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