Webcomic Hate

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Re: Webcomic Hate

Post by McDuffies »

To me, the whole POINT of having a webcomic, of forcing you to update to a schedule, and posting week after week after week is to improve.
That is my point too. But not everyone sees the same point, and internet isn't yours or mine. Some people simply do comics for selfish reasons, to make their lives a bit more interesting and creative. And after they do that, it's only logical that they want someone to see those comics too.
Without growth and improvement, shit just remains shit. And most of the works that Solomon and Co. targeted were, in fact, shit that continued to remain shit. Even stuff like PvP and Ctrl-Alt-Del, while they certainly aren't the SAME shit they were when they started, have grown to become comfortable with copypasta. If anything, the Solomon rants taught me that settling for a "good enough" style was never an option, and was a huge factor in the development of my own mantra for webcomics.

And, I think, the refusal of CG's FCBD offerings has something to do with that. It's one thing to "encourage" amateurs, but without lighting a fire under them, they won't improve. This lack of improvement does nothing to encourage growth the way you think it does.
Aaand, has any of comics who Solomon criticized actually shown any "improvement", or even followed Solomon's advice?
Very nice thing about critics like Solomon is, they're adored by people who aren't their targets. They think that people who got trashed deserved it and they proud themselves that their own comic is better than that - while the true might as well be that the critic just hasn't stumbled onto them yet. "It's funny because it's not me."

Put yourself in this situation: what would you find more helpful? A critique that points to your mistakes with respect, or a critique that trashes your comic for characters having large ears, calling you names for just daring to show that "ear fetish" thing on internet?
People on this forum have improved not only through critique, but through seeing others improve, reading comic discussion threads, or just exchanging advices. We can all see this improvement if we follow comics by forumers (and that is liting the fire under them - a kind of fire that won't burn them to the ground). On the other hand, any positive effect Solomon has is yet to be seen.

Admitt it: Solomon is writing purely for venting. He is frustrated by bad comics, so his blog is just there to let this frustration out. It's not done for the community, future of webcomics, or doing anyone a favour, and it's not going to have any lasting effect, because he is just one of millions of venting internet lunatics.
I'm not saying all webcomics are superior / inferior to all print comics. However, you can't tell me that something as simple as XKCD's "Alt Text Jokes" would be half as effective if you didn't have to go at least a little out of your way to look for them.

I'm talking about the advantages of having immense online archives and an easy way to reference /index old pages for clues.
I'm talking about the ability to track every single person who's reading your comic and be able to react at a speed that print comics could never hope to account for.
I'm talking about the advantages of being able to scale everything you do, and not be constrained to the standards or the expenses of trying to duplicate these efforts in print.
I'm talking about all the advantages that made you come into a forum like this to argue about webcomics in the first place.

Do I expect the general standards of comics -- that things work better when they're laid out in strips or pages -- to change? No. This said, I would be a fool to think that a print comic is inherently superior to a web comic. They're different experiences, which is why I tried to leave "Quality" out of the equation. Yes, for now Print is dominated by professionals -- and many of the people we see online would never see the light of day. This does not make it inherently better, this just means it has a much higher barrier to entry right now than webcomics do.

The internet is an inherently more powerful medium than 'mere print' alone. It should follow that webcomics have just as much more power over their 'mere print' alternatives.
Those are some aspects of webcomics. But there are other aspects you neglected: the amateur/hobbist aspect - most of people who are doing this are amateurs without pretension; the lack of money leading to the lack of time artist can dedicate to a comic; the audience - most of people spending that much time on internet are still computer/gaming/sf freaks, and thus topics of the most succesful comics are very limited; the history - first four or five people who made webcomics, determined it's development for good etc etc etc...
All those aspects affect the evolution of webcomics. It's a logical evolution, according to all the influences.
As you see, difference between print and web comics is much deeper than that which you suggested - and I have to note that, while nice, aspects you mentioned are mostly technical and logistic. They make webcomics sould like some improved version of print comics, which they aren't - they are a completely different subculture. And that's good, since noone needs yet another printed comics scene.
Think, why we're all here? Some of us might be attracted by archieving or infinite canvas, or communication with readers, but large majority of us are here and not in print because we're hobbists, or because we're not good enough (in conventional sence) or suitable for print.

Here's a thought: to stop the flow of crappy webcomics, all we'd have to do is - cancel Comic Genesis. That is the only place that lets any Tom, Dick and Harry post their comics just for the kicks or because they're bored. Any other place asks for either money, some level of engagement in administration, or some editing pick - and that, we assume, means that the artist is serious about his work. So canceling CG would single-handedly decrease the number of crappy comics for what, about 50% - of course it would rid us of some very good comics (I know at least several good webcomickers who wouldn't start their webcomicking if there wasn't for free hosting) but hey - you have to crack an egg or two.

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Re: Webcomic Hate

Post by ShineDog »

What gets me is the acceptance of poor quality stuff as the status quo. It doesn't make me particularly angry that death by chibi or whatever exists. It's crap, whatever, I can ignore it.

What makes me angry is stuff like Dominic Deegan or CAD or SP that are horrible, just horribly written and drawn, and because they push the buttons of some subculture, or capture a particular micro internet zeitgeist, they manage to grow and get a huge readership that they just don't deserve.

And if I'm really honest it's not the creators I should be angry at. I mean I want to punch Buckley in the eyes for crimes against timing but it's really the people who read it who deserve a slap. Because they are saying "This is what is OK, this is where the bar is for me, this is what I will accept." It's the same thinking when I see big brother all over the front page of the papers and hearing about it on the news on the radio. People are spending time with THIS. People are watching this horrible lazy filler and just gobbling it up and...

I dunno. I just get Irate at the whole thing sometimes, and I want to shout about it.


- Regarding Comic Genesis

When the whole name change thing happened - I was real excited, I had this idea that it would be launched as a big webcomics forum and community hub for fans and creators alike and the comic hosting would be this fantastic service that was attached, like the worlds best subforum. I didn't have any reason to believe it would happen but goddamn it that was my pipe dream damnit, and I think the fact that it all has gone a bit tits up (My opinion, whatever) is part of the reason I feel rather bitter.

Weirdly, I still think the potential for that kind of thing exists, though its certainly not here.
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Re: Webcomic Hate

Post by Redtech »

Killbert-Robby wrote:Why does having a webcomic have ANYTHING to do with improving? Improving should be something you do for yourself. If you sit in your room and practise drawing without uploading it, you still improve. Becoming a webcomic is about *showing* your work to others. And none of this "You show your stuff and get critiqued and get better!" BS. Most people learn from their own mistakes, and self critique, plus just the gradual improvement of one's craft.
I can't see anything wrong with self improvement! I'm in agreement that improvement is a ways-to-a-means, but ultimately webcomicing is an artform and does express the person inside, whether we like it or not. No matter how good someone is, if they're sticking around for a reasonable amount of time, it'd be nice to see they're getting better, it's a form of self-improvement. I don't speak for others, but I find the improvement of one's skills to be motivating. The argument for "if it's online it's free game" has already been made, but ultimately, if you ask, you shall receive and if someone didn't want a crit, then it'd be better to ignore them.
Its pretty much general knowledge that people are stubborn as mules. Tell Buckley his facial expressions need dire work, to make them more expressive, follow that up with a zip of better face-styles, and see how much he improves.
Some people are just plain stupid or lazy. If there's one thing I hate, is people who hold themselves back deliberately. If someone has the potential for "mad skillz" it'd be good to use them once in a while! Even if they nerf themself to do a comic and are much better at full-spread pages, at least prove that they can do it! The same applies with writing. If you're going to show your work, I WANNA SEE IT!
Webcomicing used to be the domain for those who had the skill and hook to be able to be paid and hosted to do this. ComicGenesis gives free hosting so that you're NOT limiting those who can showcase their stuff to the ones with money or skill. Way I see if, CG is pretty much perfect for the nonproffessional.
Rock on, brother! I feel CG and webcomics in general are sort of "web 1.5 media" individuals have the ability to show themselves in a wider audiance, even if it is by guilt-by-association, I still am amazed and quite pleased there is the opportunity for individuals to express themselves free from editorial control.
If you want to go on and become pro or whatever, sure, plenty of members have left to host sites out of their own pocket, or be picked up and sponsored, but at the end of the day, the majority here are not looking for that. Its been said already, a lot of the people here are hobbyists. Sure, if I was offered a wad of cash to update regularly on another host I'd be tempted, but I'm not *actively pursuing* that.
Hell, offer enough sex and I'd update every day! I think what is more important is that people have the freedom to do whatever they want, and to some extent, however they want. But as mentioned, if it's on the net, someone's going to find it. I don't expect anyone to think Meiosis is the next Poisoned Minds, but if it isn't the next Cats I'm happy. What about the author of Cats? Well as long as Unigirl gains some satisfaction in creating it, then from her point of view, good for her.
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Re: Webcomic Hate

Post by Wendybird »

Kieve wrote:
I reiterate - stop thinking like a community and start thinking like a company.
NO.
This.

If we were a bunch of people who wanted to be a company, we probably would be. Go find another group of people to shape to your will.

Guildmaster Van wrote:I offer you and the admins the chance to here and now justify yourselves on the subjects of sprites otherwise I must assume you people are simply doing whatever you want when you want without having any valid reasoning behind it until someone calls you out on it. I demand transparency!
CafePress TOS wrote:2.2 Compliance with TOS and Applicable Law. You must comply with all of the terms and conditions of this TOS, the applicable agreements and policies referred to below, and all applicable laws, regulations and rules when you use the CafePress.com Service and the Website.
Nothing else. This professional company deals with the violation of copyright on a case-by-case basis, since the applicable laws are quite complex. Saying "Don't break the law using our site" is just about the best you can do to state clearly and concisely what you will and won't accept.

Moving on...
Killbert-Robby wrote:Why does having a webcomic have ANYTHING to do with improving? Improving should be something you do for yourself. If you sit in your room and practise drawing without uploading it, you still improve. Becoming a webcomic is about *showing* your work to others. And none of this "You show your stuff and get critiqued and get better!" BS. Most people learn from their own mistakes, and self critique, plus just the gradual improvement of one's craft.
Maybe you do your best creative work in a vacuum. Maybe a lot of people do. Maybe you are an evil space robot. But most of the people I know thrive on feedback. It's a basic human need - we want the things we spend our time on to be seen and valued by other people. Improving my comic is not something I'd do for myself because my comic is not something I do for myself. If I didn't want my creativity to have a positive effect on people I'd give it up and just read other people's stuff all day. And I have done a lot of practicing behind the scenes, showing my work to friends and acquaintances. I'll keep improving as long as I keep drawing. But at some point I decided my work was worthwhile and deserved to be seen, and the reaction from more people than just my own circle is a great motivator and has given me some good tidbits of advice.
Bustertheclown wrote:I don't believe that most of the other entertainment industries you've mentioned are just as susceptible to being utter shit, though, because the investment involved necessitates some sort of editorial discrimination. Not everything pitched makes it to print, screens, and radios, and most of that which does make it to the public has benefited from at least some kind of engineering to ensure that the product is going to entertain most on some level. More than that, while there may be lots of bad, plenty of good is still made readily available, and even celebrated.
Comics may have CG, but film has YouTube. I maintain it's the nature of the internet, and not limited to any specific medium.

Yes, there are lots of bad comics and you have to slog through a lot of crap to find the ones you'll like. Yes, it would be nice if they could be neatly organized. But they can't. Too bad. That would require someone reading them all and categorizing them, and you'd still have to rely on that person's taste. If you reply, "many people working together could do it better," I would say they could, they are, and it still isn't good enough.

There are lots of places to find lots of comics that lots of people like. If this doesn't allow people to avoid comics so bad, they cause trauma, no other organization system is going to do better.

And other media aren't necessarily better. Sometimes you just have to get up and walk out of a showing of Apocalypto you paid good dollars for, because it's meaningless and it's already given you one nights' worth of nightmares. And by "you" here I do mean me.

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Re: Webcomic Hate

Post by Jackhass »

Wow. Can...can we all just agree to ignore Van from here on? The dude clearly has mental problems. Reading this thread was painful.
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Re: Webcomic Hate

Post by Bustertheclown »

Wendybird wrote:
Moving on...
Killbert-Robby wrote:Why does having a webcomic have ANYTHING to do with improving? Improving should be something you do for yourself. If you sit in your room and practise drawing without uploading it, you still improve. Becoming a webcomic is about *showing* your work to others. And none of this "You show your stuff and get critiqued and get better!" BS. Most people learn from their own mistakes, and self critique, plus just the gradual improvement of one's craft.
Maybe you do your best creative work in a vacuum. Maybe a lot of people do. Maybe you are an evil space robot. But most of the people I know thrive on feedback. It's a basic human need - we want the things we spend our time on to be seen and valued by other people. Improving my comic is not something I'd do for myself because my comic is not something I do for myself. If I didn't want my creativity to have a positive effect on people I'd give it up and just read other people's stuff all day. And I have done a lot of practicing behind the scenes, showing my work to friends and acquaintances. I'll keep improving as long as I keep drawing. But at some point I decided my work was worthwhile and deserved to be seen, and the reaction from more people than just my own circle is a great motivator and has given me some good tidbits of advice.
You know, the internet hasn't been around so long that we should forget that there are other ways to show off or get advice. I happened to be a 14 year old with big aspirations once; a kid who started drawing comics before the World Wide Web became a household name. I didn't have any troubles finding support, competition, or knowledge through less digital sources. I certainly wasn't harmed by the inability to post online every scrap and scribble I ever made as a shoegazing teenager. Instead, I used a photocopier and forced my shitty comics on friends and cohorts. I understand that the internet provides the opportunity for all of those types of growth and support. However, I don't buy that posting your work on the internet can be the Be All and End All of community or communication. Personally, I find face to face feedback has always been much more important and valuable to my own growth, and I certainly don't need to put anything online, let alone upload the entire catalog of my life's work, to get that sort of feedback.

Just saying. Not showing off online is far from working in a vacuum.
Wendybird wrote:
Bustertheclown wrote:I don't believe that most of the other entertainment industries you've mentioned are just as susceptible to being utter shit, though, because the investment involved necessitates some sort of editorial discrimination. Not everything pitched makes it to print, screens, and radios, and most of that which does make it to the public has benefited from at least some kind of engineering to ensure that the product is going to entertain most on some level. More than that, while there may be lots of bad, plenty of good is still made readily available, and even celebrated.
Comics may have CG, but film has YouTube. I maintain it's the nature of the internet, and not limited to any specific medium.

Yes, there are lots of bad comics and you have to slog through a lot of crap to find the ones you'll like. Yes, it would be nice if they could be neatly organized. But they can't. Too bad. That would require someone reading them all and categorizing them, and you'd still have to rely on that person's taste. If you reply, "many people working together could do it better," I would say they could, they are, and it still isn't good enough.

There are lots of places to find lots of comics that lots of people like. If this doesn't allow people to avoid comics so bad, they cause trauma, no other organization system is going to do better.

And other media aren't necessarily better. Sometimes you just have to get up and walk out of a showing of Apocalypto you paid good dollars for, because it's meaningless and it's already given you one nights' worth of nightmares. And by "you" here I do mean me.
I keep coming back to the word "discrimination." I think it's a perfectly fitting word to use in this debate. Not enough people on "user created content" side of the internet have a concept of what discrimination is, and that bothers me. I avoid YouTube for the same reasons that I despise most webcomics. I don't have the time or energy in my life to devote to looking at that amount of wasted energy. I don't even have the time or energy in my life to devote to avoiding the wasted energy in my search for quality goods.

Don't think for a second that I believe the rest of entertainment is just peachy. Sure, there's plenty of professionally produced crap out there. Again though, I don't think that it's in the same league of disarray and sheer volume in yielding sub-par quality as is found on the internet. Things in the real world are set up in a way that can give me a reasonable expectation of what I'll find when I go out looking for diversion. THAT'S IMPORTANT. People keep talking about how if I can't find what I'm looking for, I must not be looking hard enough. As far as entertainment is concerned, nothing in my life is so hard as finding webcomics I like. I like comics. I like the web. I'm pretty good at navigating both, so what's wrong here? Is it really me? I'm the one to blame? God, I hope not, because that would make me retarded.

I suspect, though, that I'm not retarded. I suspect that, in the case of online content, the act of surfing around, looking for interesting stuff is the diversion. Let me put it another way, or rather the same way I keep putting it; I walk into a comic shop or bookstore, I know what I'm going to find. I turn on the TV or go to a movie, it's generally because I already have a good idea of what's on, and whether it'll interest me. I click on my web browser, and it's like I'm lost on another planet, without the benefit of translators or maps, and it's my job to navigate my way around, hopping from bit of info to bit of info, never really halting on anything for long. It's like an ADHD paradise!

You say that it all can't be organized and more easily interfaced, and that's just too bad? I'll grudgingly accept that, I suppose, because if I had a solution to that kind of problem, I'd be an internet billionaire right now. Just let me be clear in this, though, and it won't come as any surprise to anyone here: I do not want my comic reading experience to be the same as my web surfing experience. So, I'm going to keep hoping that webcomics become more like other comics, and less like the web. In the meantime, I'm going to keep disliking webcomics for what they generally end up being (bits of fleeting info in the greater diversion of the web trawl) cheering people who go against the grain, and audibly jeering proponents of the status quo. It's not a good system for nurturing more nuanced appreciation of the comic form, and I doubt it will ever be a good system. It leads to much more crap than needs to exist, and gets in the way of necessary cohesion.

That's my time. Goodnight.
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Re: Webcomic Hate

Post by ShineDog »

Go to a decent forum that discusses good webcomics (Not this one, everyone seems to conciously ignore the good stuff), and take some recommendations.

Go to a decent comic and you will generally find a list of decent comics linked!

You are now a quality webcomics winner.
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Re: Webcomic Hate

Post by Bustertheclown »

You probably have a point there. I don't know why I keep hanging out in the hobbyist corners of the internet. Maybe its because it affords me a chance to feel superior.
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Re: Webcomic Hate

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ShineDog wrote:Go to a decent forum that discusses good webcomics (Not this one, everyone seems to conciously ignore the good stuff), and take some recommendations.
Does such a forum exist?

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Re: Webcomic Hate

Post by Wendybird »

Buster, I agree with everything you said in your post replying to me. I agree that most people put their comics on the web before they're ready, but my issue with Killbert-Robby's post is he seemed to be denying the idea that feedback on the web can have any value; it could even be read that he denies the value of any kind of critiques. I also prefer face-to-face critiques but I can see how some people would find it difficult to get honest critiques from people they actually know.

I don't, but then I have an incredibly objective and brutally honest mother.

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Re: Webcomic Hate

Post by Yeahduff »

I wholeheartedly endorse putting out your comic before it's ready. Just get to work and get it out there, look back on your mistakes and improve later. Don't just let it sit on the shelf where it'll rot for all eternity.
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Re: Webcomic Hate

Post by Killbert-Robby »

Wendybird wrote:Buster, I agree with everything you said in your post replying to me. I agree that most people put their comics on the web before they're ready, but my issue with Killbert-Robby's post is he seemed to be denying the idea that feedback on the web can have any value; it could even be read that he denies the value of any kind of critiques. I also prefer face-to-face critiques but I can see how some people would find it difficult to get honest critiques from people they actually know.
If I meant "All criticisms are usless", I would have damn well said so. What I said was that improvement happens even without outside influence, and most people are disinclined to listening to the opinions of others when it comes to their own artwork.

My philosophy on the whole matter is simple. It shouldnt matter if people crit you, because you should be your own harshest crit. You shouldnt be improving the feet on your characters because someone on the internet told you so. You should be doing it because YOU are unsatisfied with your art. Self-improvement should be self-motivated.
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Re: Webcomic Hate

Post by KWill »

Killbert-Robby wrote:My philosophy on the whole matter is simple. It shouldnt matter if people crit you, because you should be your own harshest crit. You shouldnt be improving the feet on your characters because someone on the internet told you so. You should be doing it because YOU are unsatisfied with your art. Self-improvement should be self-motivated.
On the other hand, other people will notice things that are wrong that you may not be aware of. There's things you might never notice you're doing wrong (or couldn't imagine being misinterpreted), and that's where you desperately need a second opinion.

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Re: Webcomic Hate

Post by Killbert-Robby »

KWill wrote:
Killbert-Robby wrote:My philosophy on the whole matter is simple. It shouldnt matter if people crit you, because you should be your own harshest crit. You shouldnt be improving the feet on your characters because someone on the internet told you so. You should be doing it because YOU are unsatisfied with your art. Self-improvement should be self-motivated.
On the other hand, other people will notice things that are wrong that you may not be aware of. There's things you might never notice you're doing wrong (or couldn't imagine being misinterpreted), and that's where you desperately need a second opinion.
Ack, I knew I left something out (I had a good couple paragraphs, shortened it because I thought it was too long-winded XD so I just went for one paragrapth instead)
One of the things I brought up was that, yes, course, at times, you will NOT see a mistake you're making, but it all comes down to the same thing, the ARTIST wanting to improve. You can crit the artist all you want, but at the end of the day, its their choice whether they listen to you or not. Its like that one word everyone has that even after people correct then a hundred times, they keep making the same spelling/definition mistake.

If I sounded like I thought crits werent important, its because I'm cynical and jaded and think 90% of artists really dont give a crap about what you think.
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Re: Webcomic Hate

Post by Wendybird »

Killbert-Robby wrote:Why does having a webcomic have ANYTHING to do with improving?
All I'm saying is for me, and a lot of people, it does. I'm not denying the existence of a zillion apathetic artists who see posting comics as socialization rather than art.

And art can be a hobby, and some people do like to be good at their hobbies even if they're not trying to live off of them.

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Re: Webcomic Hate

Post by Dotty »

Some people do comics just because they want to, if not to communicate an idea in their head, or just to try it, it has nothing to do (or very little to do with) self improvement. Not all attempts at drawing are attempts to get better. Hence why I was very much against what this community was doing within the last year, and has since gotten itself out of; becoming some kind of ultra snark tear you down whether you asked for it or not sort of community, to the point where people had to tell other people to get off their high horses and shut the fuck up, because we were just trying to have a little fun.

Personally, I like asking for criticism, and usually I can use it to help me improve. That is not to say, however, that all I seek are critiques and snarky comments that are somehow supposed to make me better. Sometimes I draw because -I- want to, just to get it onto the page and out of my head.

In the past 10 years, webcomics have come a long way. From just being something to do, to something that earns lots of people small chunks of change here and there, to an actual job for a couple handfuls of comic artists (a number thats slowly rising) and finally, an outlet to get their work in print. To think they were going to completely take over the print industry in TEN YEARS is just ridiculous. Furthermore, I wouldn't WANT them to, because I'd feel absolutely terrible about the idea that something I love took the jobs away from hundreds or even thousands of people.

Finally I don't think anyone considers the "crap" of webcomics to be the "status quo". I think it's more that some people have insane expectations of absolutely every human being who wants to put a comic online. Most of the internet webcomic area are AMATEURS in the eyes of the professional world. Most of us don't have a college/university education in the field of art, and likely never will. Lots of us in that category will strive to improve, and you'll see it...over the period of years. You certainly won't see it overnight, and again, I have to stress this, thinking the Internet was going to make a complete sweep of comics and totally change the landscape of comics as a whole so very fast when its driven and dominated by hobbyists, amateurs, and people under the age of 17, yeah. I think you may have to consider sitting back and thinking how the world works, and what we have to work with here.

We're not accepting crap as the status quo, it's pretty much the solid REALITY of the whole thing. You're going to get some amazing talent and professional work peppered in there, but deal with it. We deal with the public, for a purpose. The ads on here are supposedly going to pay for the site itself. So anyone is free to make a comic, to the ends of, I suppose, good ones getting through to pick up to Keenspot. Much like the NHL, WWE, NFL and other sports/entertainment franchises, this is a "developmental" league. When the standouts get good enough to get called up to the major leagues, they will. Some never will, because they don't have -it-, or don't fit into the companys self-image, or ideas of what they want to offer.
Caught in the headlamp glare of your own blinding vanity/Mesmerised by the stare of your shallow personality
Gorging the junk food of flattery you drag your fat ego around/Everyone floored by the battering you give to whoever's around
Oh Narcissus you petulant child admiring yourself in the curve of my eyes/Oh Narcissus you angel beguiled unsated by self you do nothing but die

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ShineDog
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Re: Webcomic Hate

Post by ShineDog »

You realise what it is instead, right?

A ghost town?


Yeah. I guess thats better.











<Edit>


ARGH. God damnit, I can take the crap, it's fine, it can be ignored. It's the fact that crap is celebrated. That crap gets shoved onto the frontpage. That people actively reject discussing anything other than their own little scribbles. It's a webcomics community, and I've barely seen any discussion on webcomics that aren't by the like, 3 people who are actively posting these days. It's ridiculous. There are fantastic webcomics out there and they warrant discussion and no one bothers. They just occasionally post some inane question "WHAT YOUR FAVORITE WEBCOMIC BACKGROUND COLOUR" followed by 4 equally inane answers.

At least this thread actually got people talking about stuff.

Gah.
Jaw droppingly large strawberry desserts.

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McDuffies
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Re: Webcomic Hate

Post by McDuffies »

ShineDog wrote:What gets me is the acceptance of poor quality stuff as the status quo. It doesn't make me particularly angry that death by chibi or whatever exists. It's crap, whatever, I can ignore it.

What makes me angry is stuff like Dominic Deegan or CAD or SP that are horrible, just horribly written and drawn, and because they push the buttons of some subculture, or capture a particular micro internet zeitgeist, they manage to grow and get a huge readership that they just don't deserve.

And if I'm really honest it's not the creators I should be angry at. I mean I want to punch Buckley in the eyes for crimes against timing but it's really the people who read it who deserve a slap. Because they are saying "This is what is OK, this is where the bar is for me, this is what I will accept." It's the same thinking when I see big brother all over the front page of the papers and hearing about it on the news on the radio. People are spending time with THIS. People are watching this horrible lazy filler and just gobbling it up and...
I can't argue with that. People like Mookie draw bad because they don't know any better, and using the popularity that's given to them - who wouldn't. But when fans of these comics start arguing with people who are critical... well you start wondering whether they're able to cross the street by themselves.
Bustertheclown wrote: You know, the internet hasn't been around so long that we should forget that there are other ways to show off or get advice. I happened to be a 14 year old with big aspirations once; a kid who started drawing comics before the World Wide Web became a household name. I didn't have any troubles finding support, competition, or knowledge through less digital sources.
But today's kids have that chance so why should they miss it?
I certainly wasn't harmed by the inability to post online every scrap and scribble I ever made as a shoegazing teenager. Instead, I used a photocopier and forced my shitty comics on friends and cohorts. I understand that the internet provides the opportunity for all of those types of growth and support. However, I don't buy that posting your work on the internet can be the Be All and End All of community or communication. Personally, I find face to face feedback has always been much more important and valuable to my own growth, and I certainly don't need to put anything online, let alone upload the entire catalog of my life's work, to get that sort of feedback.
"Every scrap and scribble"? "be all and end all"? "entire catalogue of life's work"? You're exagerating things. Most of people I've seen just post things that they're proud of, which means things that are top of their abilities, whatever they be. There's thousands of people posting things so it may seem like an overwhelming amount of images, but from my experience, people are usually posting the best of their work, and even if they're posting unfinished sketches, they use blogs, and not main sites for that.
Don't think for a second that I believe the rest of entertainment is just peachy. Sure, there's plenty of professionally produced crap out there. Again though, I don't think that it's in the same league of disarray and sheer volume in yielding sub-par quality as is found on the internet. Things in the real world are set up in a way that can give me a reasonable expectation of what I'll find when I go out looking for diversion. THAT'S IMPORTANT. People keep talking about how if I can't find what I'm looking for, I must not be looking hard enough. As far as entertainment is concerned, nothing in my life is so hard as finding webcomics I like. I like comics. I like the web. I'm pretty good at navigating both, so what's wrong here? Is it really me? I'm the one to blame? God, I hope not, because that would make me retarded.
Maybe webcomics (web in general) simply offers different kind of quality and you're just used to traditional entertainment too much? Maybe you're like a classic art fan, trying to understand the values of pop-art and failing? Just suggesting a possibility.
I suspect, though, that I'm not retarded. I suspect that, in the case of online content, the act of surfing around, looking for interesting stuff is the diversion. Let me put it another way, or rather the same way I keep putting it; I walk into a comic shop or bookstore, I know what I'm going to find. I turn on the TV or go to a movie, it's generally because I already have a good idea of what's on, and whether it'll interest me. I click on my web browser, and it's like I'm lost on another planet, without the benefit of translators or maps, and it's my job to navigate my way around, hopping from bit of info to bit of info, never really halting on anything for long. It's like an ADHD paradise!
You don't like that? I find it wonderful and adventurous that I don't know what's the next thing I'll find. To hell with tv channels and their programming schemes!

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Re: Webcomic Hate

Post by KWill »

ShineDog wrote:ARGH. God damnit, I can take the crap, it's fine, it can be ignored. It's the fact that crap is celebrated. That crap gets shoved onto the frontpage.
This isn't limited to webcomics, though. I mean, most people here will probably agree that Big Brother wasn't a quality show, but for some reason, enough people watch it that it goes on indefinitely on German television. It sucks, big time, but in the end, the only real means one has to "combat" it is ignore it. Even the celebrating part.
That people actively reject discussing anything other than their own little scribbles. It's a webcomics community, and I've barely seen any discussion on webcomics that aren't by the like, 3 people who are actively posting these days. It's ridiculous. There are fantastic webcomics out there and they warrant discussion and no one bothers. They just occasionally post some inane question "WHAT YOUR FAVORITE WEBCOMIC BACKGROUND COLOUR" followed by 4 equally inane answers.

I'm sure people would be interested in discussing some of the good comics, but no one goes and points them out. I mean, do you? Maybe you should. I'd welcome it if you did =)

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Re: Webcomic Hate

Post by McDuffies »

Isn't Donjon awesome?

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