Originality

[Dallawalla]

Why is it that most comics are very similar? Why do so many fit so neatly into categories.

It seems odd to me that artists, and I mean people with drawing talent, like those i have seen on this site, that they could make comics about ANYTHING they wanted, but so many end up exactly like all the others... you know what im talking about right? Why?

[K-Dawg]

Which comics are you reading?

I read a pretty diverse array of comics so I'm not sure where you are coming from.

[McDuffies]

I do see what you mean. Webcomics give people unlimited freedom in choice of subject and genre, yet most of people choose do make some sort of copy of their favourite stuff. Most of things we have is some kind of generic RPG fantasy, wacky roomated comedy, gaming talking faces or "why are customers so stupid" workplace stuff (or __________ fill in the blanks).
I guess when people want to express themselves, most of them feel more comfortable to start with something familiar and then build up on that. My first comic was a wacky roommate sorta thing, which bothered me considering that I could choose any sort of setting I could come up with, and I choose one that was already done a dozen of times.

As Dawg said, you can find a lot of original comics, but you have to do some searching and bookmarking for that. I'm not bothered going through ten "Real life" rip-offs if in the end I find something that actually approachs the concept from the new angle.

[Bustertheclown]

Which comics are you reading?

Valid question.

Anyway, people write what they know, as they should, because writing what they don't know just leads to crappy stories. The problem is, people tend to know roughly the same kind of stuff as one another, especially when talking about a subculture, like comics, which has a pretty small scope for what ends up being successful. I mean, how many different types of genres of comic are actually readily available to the average comic fan? In my experience, the field is somewhat limited. Yeah, there's plenty of TRULY alternative storytelling going on in comics, but for the most part, unless a person is willing to really get down and dirty, and do some hard work digging up the unique and unexpected (and let's face it, most people are pretty unwilling or unable to go to that degree) then the standard will the the primary influence for those who wish to also create. We are the sum total of our influences.

Besides that, being different is hard fucking work, man, and it generally yields very little of the instant outward appreciation for one's toil that most people would like to see. We can talk about the nobility of leaving the pack and forging new paths until we're blue in the face, and perhaps history will hold the work of true iconoclasts up as the best documents of the artform. However, why break genres and bend paradigms in the hopes of making history, when it's so much easier and celebrated in the short run to copy Penny Arcade, or draw big-titted manga space elves with laser guns who have to save the world from demons? That's entertainment for you, and you're welcome to it.

[Wendybird]

A lot of people are passionate about fantasy, as an example, but until they've had experience writing it they won't understand what makes it good. So they take elements from their favorite stories. Some people get better at writing it as they go, but are stuck with the story elements they chose in the beginning. A lot of them are similar because there is some really good fantasy out there with devoted fans.

On the other hand there are also quite a few comics that can be thrown into one of the categories because they share some obvious elements, but those elements don't mean the story has no originality.

I admit this mostly bothers me because I do a fantasy/elf comic, and there are some negative generalizations about elf comics. I prefer to take each comic on its own merit, because some comics I love to read are on original subjects (xkcd), but some of them may be pigeonholed into the major categories (ozy and millie, furry).

I guess if you read enough, you learn to filter. I just checked - and not a lot of my bookmarked comics share subjects or settings. A lot of them have magic or fantasy elements, but they're very different from each other all the same. My guess is I just like magic.

[McDuffies]

I don't think that being original is that difficult and certainly not what I'd call getting down and dirty. For a very simplyfied instance, if you want to crack a new ground in webcomics, you can as well search for inspiration in fields other than webcomics, because films, literature, theatre and certain comic scenes have covered ground significantly different (and much wider) than webcomics. Even if you stick closely to "write what you know" idea, our lives are very complex, full of events and characters, yet people often choose the same aspects of their lives to write about.
I think that desire to mimic something you've liked is very strong in humans, in average stronger than the desire to be unique, and that's where unoriginality comes from.

[Wendybird]

There's a question in my mind as to whether people are talking about original genres here, or originality within those genres.

There is original work in every genre of webcomic on the web.

It seems to me that making up genres that haven't been invented is the difficult part - what Buster is talking about when he mentions breaking genres and bending paradigms, and how unrewarding it can seem. But the drive to do these things is present in every artform.

But it also seems that Dallawalla is asking, why don't the talented webcomic artists branch out into all the genres that we have in other media?

I think the answer is that they do. Most genres are represented if you look hard enough. But also, if we are not going to invent whole new genres, we should be allowed to pick the ones we are passionate about and that we believe we can do the most with.

I also think that the genres which seem overfull only seem that way because of the many less-talented artists who flock to copy what they see there. If every fantasy comic on the web was a joy to read, would we think there were too many?

[Dallawalla]

I'll admit i like the idea of someone pioneering a new genre, although I dont think it can be done purposefully that easily. It would take alot of "jamming" and mixing of ideas to stumble across something both new and comprehensible. And you can't be doing for the sake of pioneering or with the expectation of later recognition, it has to be done because it is the best idea for a purpose (probably). I dont know.

Maybe what im pissed off with deep down is how resistant to something slightly different a large percentage of the population are, things get classified as normal or weird. And often weird means "i'm not going to bother"

But i've said this about other artforms, ive thought that all bands should be as distinctive as Bjork is from other stuff.. everyone pushing boundaries...
But there is something to be said about exploring the whole of a genre.

But still.. looking around comics... you can get a lot of deja vu.

Maybe i'll start a comic about some guy sitting at a computer (on a couch maybe) commenting or joking about some meme/game/celebrity

Also i'd dispute that people writing what they know is some key to comic writing success... that might be the limiting factor.. our imagination is bigger than what we know.

[EvilFlea]

People expect comics to fit into certain genres
+
Writers/Artists want to be successful and make their living doing what they love
=
Writers/Artists write/draw what they think people expect to see in a professional comic.


Of course, there are lots of amateurs who are starting out also, and they, as has been suggested, write what they know. So they try their best to be original, bless their cotton socks, but ultimately base their comics on the stories they enjoy. Then if and when they get good enough most of them start doing what I suggested above.

[Montyandwoolley]

The problem is the majority (id say like 90%) of us webcomicers are geeks, so the easiest option is for the comic goer to write a comic based around computer games etc. Unfortuantly, since a lot of people DO - the same jokes keep coming up. For instance, i read maybe 3 computer related comics and every time a new geek film or game comes out that strikes the community all of the comics do a very similar strip about it. Which does get on my tits..

[Guildmaster Van]

Webcomics are homogeneous because most webcartoonists can write webs but not comics. Most webcomic artists use other webcomics as models instead of comic books.

I don't read webcomics much anymore. Maybe Penny Arcade and Atland every few weeks. My nibblings of choice are European BD showcases like Lanfeust, 60s-70s Crumb-ling cartoons (Fritz the Cat, Dirty Plotte, etc), Dynamite's Conan/Red Sonja universe, and the classic superhero comic book. If I intend to become a serious webcartoonist, I shouldn't be relying on webcomics to teach me anything. At least by relying on real comics I can see elements in comics that webcomics almost always lack.

As for the subject of originality, a teacher of mine had some wise words on the subject:
Originality is not creating something from scratch. Originality is taking something old and presenting it in a new way.

[Yeahduff]

I don't think that being original is that difficult and certainly not what I'd call getting down and dirty. For a very simplyfied instance, if you want to crack a new ground in webcomics, you can as well search for inspiration in fields other than webcomics, because films, literature, theatre and certain comic scenes have covered ground significantly different (and much wider) than webcomics. Even if you stick closely to "write what you know" idea, our lives are very complex, full of events and characters, yet people often choose the same aspects of their lives to write about.
I think that desire to mimic something you've liked is very strong in humans, in average stronger than the desire to be unique, and that's where unoriginality comes from.

I dunno, I agree with Busta here. I mean, maybe originality itself isn't difficult, but making original work that's also quality sure is. There's a reason there are a lot ideas that are repeated and many that are discarded. Some worked, most didn't. Not to mention the frame work that convention provides. Eschew convention, you're on your own to find some other way to hold it all together. And that ain't easy.

[Wadefade]

Originality comes in waves. For instance, a good analogy is the movie business. A few years of good original movies, then you got a few years of remakes, then someone will come a long and bam! original stuff that will be copied and put a different twist on later.

I just hope we get out of this "remake" phase of movies....

[McDuffies]

The problem is the majority (id say like 90%) of us webcomicers are geeks, so the easiest option is for the comic goer to write a comic based around computer games etc. Unfortuantly, since a lot of people DO - the same jokes keep coming up. For instance, i read maybe 3 computer related comics and every time a new geek film or game comes out that strikes the community all of the comics do a very similar strip about it. Which does get on my tits..

I agree.

Originality comes in waves. For instance, a good analogy is the movie business. A few years of good original movies, then you got a few years of remakes, then someone will come a long and bam! original stuff that will be copied and put a different twist on later.

The reason why originality comes in waves in film industry is because producers oscilate between being more or less open to fresh, new and original. Through Hollywood history, waves of fresh new movies have always been preceded by one or two succesful new films, usually independent or financed by a smaller studio, which make other producers more open to new ideas and basically letting in a new generation of directors.
I understand this thread as oposing webcomics to film or printed comics based on a big difference: no producers or editors who hang above your head and try to guess what is currently sellable. Webcomic artist is his own boss and makes his own boundaries, so to a person like me it's hard to understand why many people make those boundaries narrow and within the "already done" area.

Also i'd dispute that people writing what they know is some key to comic writing success... that might be the limiting factor.. our imagination is bigger than what we know.

"Write what you know" advice reffers to the topic the least of all. It's more about characters, situations and general rules of the world. You can just as well write the most otherworldy fantasy ever, if you base your characters and situations roughly on what you know from real life, the comic will be more convincing.
My favourite example is this: suppose you make a crime comic. Not knowing anything about crime, of course, isn't a stop (although depending on a level of realism you intend, it might help). But say one character is shooting at the other, and you've never handled guns let alone shooting from them, so you don't know the hit/miss rate, the action/reaction involved in shooting, and you don't know anything about the physics involved in shooting... so depending on your hunch, this may result in passable to ridiculous to laughable scene.

I dunno, I agree with Busta here. I mean, maybe originality itself isn't difficult, but making original work that's also quality sure is. There's a reason there are a lot ideas that are repeated and many that are discarded. Some worked, most didn't. Not to mention the frame work that convention provides. Eschew convention, you're on your own to find some other way to hold it all together. And that ain't easy.

That depends on how high originality is on your list of priorities as a reader. But we don't need genre-bending to be original. We just need a new twist on things. Sometimes simply being a different person brings a new twist, but not if this person is so absorbed in pop culture that he doesn't have much original in himself, or if he's just too much of a fanboy of the thing he "copies".

It seems to me that making up genres that haven't been invented is the difficult part - what Buster is talking about when he mentions breaking genres and bending paradigms, and how unrewarding it can seem. But the drive to do these things is present in every artform.

I don't think one can make up a genre at all. Genres require a bulk of stories having certain similarities. One film about people on the road does not make a genre, but ten of them and someone invents the term "road movie".
Most of things that don't belong to any genre, as far as I've noticed, get stuck into "dramas" - at least in video clubs.

[Wendybird]

suppose you make a crime comic. Not knowing anything about crime, of course, isn't a stop (although depending on a level of realism you intend, it might help). But say one character is shooting at the other, and you've never handled guns let alone shooting from them, so you don't know the hit/miss rate, the action/reaction involved in shooting, and you don't know anything about the physics involved in shooting... so depending on your hunch, this may result in passable to ridiculous to laughable scene.

Yeah...and even in this aspect you don't have to write what you know as long as you research what you don't know. A lot of people don't realize how much they need to do this, but luckily I am in a position IRL at least to have people consult me about their writing, and I've been able to point them in the direction of the right material. I study a lot of forensics myself, which is useful in one of the novels I'm working on, and when I was younger I was intrigued by medieval warfare and fortifications, which came in very useful helping an acquaintance of mine edit her work.

One of the problems with fantasy is that people think they can make the world whatever they want without basing it on anything and therefore don't have to do any research, but either things end up seeming ridiculous, like in a combat that doesn't make sense - or the author is basing it on so many other fantasies unconsciously that it has nothing new at all. Or both. I've seen this happen and it's not pretty.

I guess what I'm saying is, know what you write. It'll help you be original.

[Jekkal]

Besides that, being different is hard fucking work, man, and it generally yields very little of the instant outward appreciation for one's toil that most people would like to see. We can talk about the nobility of leaving the pack and forging new paths until we're blue in the face, and perhaps history will hold the work of true iconoclasts up as the best documents of the artform. However, why break genres and bend paradigms in the hopes of making history, when it's so much easier and celebrated in the short run to copy Penny Arcade, or draw big-titted manga space elves with laser guns who have to save the world from demons? That's entertainment for you, and you're welcome to it.

This.

It's one thing for people to SAY they want new and original shit, but what they end up wanting after a few questions and probes is "No... make it more of the same, but different". The problem is you have several proven niches (like video games, or geek humor), and thus this is what people gravitate to because success breeds imitations. (and without something at least resembling success, it's pretty hard to keep going)

it takes a lot of investment in time, money , or a combination of both, to achieve a certain level of success. Originality is not a necessary part of the equation, at least in the short run.

EDIT: Also, easy categorization helps when starting out as it allows you to instantly find similar comics whose fanbases you can build off of. Having a completely new comic means finding people with the exact same interests as your comic will take a while to gather.

[Redtech]

As an anti-example, the Superhero/crossover wars are pretty successful, although absolutely impenetrable to newbies! There's nothing WRONG with being original, but at the same time, as mentioned, a good twist on an idea can produce something that is interesting to read.

It's similar to abstract art in some ways and we're limited by out skills and creativity. Hell, if I had infinate time and >9000 skills I'd do an infinate canvas strip that freezes a scene and lets you scan around picking up what the reader thought was important, like Metroid meets big brother vs bullet time.

No stealing my idea.

[Bustertheclown]

No stealing my idea.

Can't own ideas, so they can't be stolen! They're in the public domain, which means free for everybody! Whooo! I'm doing it, and you can't stop me!

[Wadefade]

It's similar to abstract art in some ways and we're limited by out skills and creativity. Hell, if I had infinate time and >9000 skills I'd do an infinate canvas strip that freezes a scene and lets you scan around picking up what the reader thought was important, like Metroid meets big brother vs bullet time.

No stealing my idea.

You mean a webcomic laid out like google earth? Then you can get the wii board and surf through your webcomic!

And actually... thats easier to do then you think.

[McDuffies]

Yeah...and even in this aspect you don't have to write what you know as long as you research what you don't know. A lot of people don't realize how much they need to do this, but luckily I am in a position IRL at least to have people consult me about their writing, and I've been able to point them in the direction of the right material. I study a lot of forensics myself, which is useful in one of the novels I'm working on, and when I was younger I was intrigued by medieval warfare and fortifications, which came in very useful helping an acquaintance of mine edit her work.

That's where topics appear. When you're writing what you know topic-wise (college, workplace, family) you have to do less research.

One of the problems with fantasy is that people think they can make the world whatever they want without basing it on anything and therefore don't have to do any research, but either things end up seeming ridiculous, like in a combat that doesn't make sense - or the author is basing it on so many other fantasies unconsciously that it has nothing new at all. Or both. I've seen this happen and it's not pretty.

People only think that they can make the world whatever they want, but there's still something to be learned from real life: apart from general human behaviour or combats which you mentioned, comic has to be logical when it comes to how it's inhabitants live, how castles and houses are built, how economy of the place works, etc, and they can only make sence if you know something about how it works in real life (can someone who knows nothing about economy just invent a new form of economy that makes sence?) Whenever "writing what you know" pops up, there's always someone who replies with "not for me, I'm writing fantasy!" but that's very wrong attitude.