Commentary on the WCCAs

Discussion of the yearly awards for best comic in various categories.

Postby NotoriousMEQ on Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:15 pm

Erik,

I want to see under 10. I made that excruciatingly clear in my original post.

By lobbying for less, I reduce the chances of my own comic being nominated for anything. If I'm competing against photocomics, I have more competition. But let me put it this way, I'd LIKE to compete against photo comics because I consider them comics as much as anything I do. They're not special.

Actually, yes, I do believe you have a bias if you're not willing to look at a few photo comics that other posters said are good comics.


This is simply laughable. Are you upset? Take a moment to calm down. I'm sorry, did I not say specifically that I would look at any comic, regardless of how it was made, if someone said it was good? It's not the photos that make me want to see it, it's if it's called "good". Here's what I said:

I'm not going to leap up if someone says "Here's a photocomic" any more than I'd leap up if someone said "Here's a comic drawn on paper." I DO leap up if someone says "This is a good comic."


See?

The main point I'm trying to convince people of in this thread is that I believe too many categories makes the awards more useless and meaningless. I'm trying to give reasons why I think more awards are a bad thing. What I get in response is "but so-and-so needs to be recognized" and "more comics need attention". I've given ways for these needs to be answered outside of the awards and am waiting to see if anyone has any good reason why these excess categories do not discriminate against what does not fit in the category, elevate only what fits in the category, or are confusing to the average (and by average, I mean most voters who don't care, don't read too much, and are self-interested) voter.

Erik, it's delicious to see you try to accuse me of being self-interested when I have been a long supported of these awards (I've drawn ceremonies and promoted them, often writing up lists of who I've nominated, which never includes my own comic nor campaigned for my own comic). Especially when you jump in here promoting a category that suits your comic, posting a thread where you put your comic at the top of a list of photocomics for consideration, and find it amazing that anyone would ever work to propose something that does not help their own cause. You have to understand how some of us work. Look how many long hours Frank (Damonk) has put into these awards - tallying nominations and votes and helping the committee. Then consider that he says he doesn't do nearly as much work the others on the admin committee, all of whom abstain from nominating and turn down nominations for their own work, which they do work very hard on.

I'd like to see awards that more people participate in, that grow in prominence and usefulness. I think reducing the number of categories would be a great step in that direction.
User avatar
NotoriousMEQ
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 854
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 1999 4:00 pm
Location: ATL -> Ottawa

I disagree.

Postby Evan Nichols on Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:23 pm

I think that if the purpose of these awards is to acknowledge outstanding work in webcomics and promote webcomics in general, then ten awards are too few.

Limiting the number to a few broad categories means only the biggest, most popular webcomics will ever win or do presentations. That leaves little incentive and opportunity for webcomic artists with smaller readership to participate.

I think encouraging as many webcomic artists as possible to participate in these awards is beneficial to the growth and longevity of the WCCA.

The committee’s challenge is to find a balance between too few and too many categories. One hundred awards is probably too many. What number optimizes the involvement from webcomic artists without splitting categories too small? I think around two dozen.

I’d suggest a survey of the nominating/voting body after February, asking about which categories were confusing, which ones seem too limited and how the process could be improved. I know none of the committee personally, but they seem open to suggestions. I think polling the voting body will allow more feedback from more people, and the input can be used by the committee to make the decision for next year’s awards.
User avatar
Evan Nichols
Newbie
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:08 pm

Postby Ozoneocean on Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:31 pm

It does take a bit too long to fill in all those nominations, if that's what you want to do (and I realise you don't have to). I only nominated one Photocomic because that was the only one I ever really followed in 2006 and it was very, very good, but they're just something I normally don't look for.

Lots of Cats are ok though, you don't have to fill them all in if you don't want (that should be made clearer), and some are more important than others: it's like the Olympic games; countries that compete don't have to send a competitor for every event, and even when they do there are some events we'll all watch out for, and then there'll be the ping pong that only China and the South Asian countries really follow, but everyone finds something they like there.

I wish there was a category for "adult" comics too, since I've seen a few great ones that'd qualify.

Nominating yourself should be fine (for the right spots, and within reason), since if you don't, who else will? Anyway, unless you do some kind of campaigning you'll be the only one nominating yourself and it won't matter anyway! ;)
No harm done. And hopefully the rest of your nominations will tally up.

Nominating comics like PVP and Penny Arcade for everything is a worse problem because there you come across pure fanboyisim. They're popular because they're good at what they do and because they're already popular (which feeds on itself). There's nothing wrong with nominations for them in the right categories like gaming comics, but not layout and art and everything else. Any forms as thoughtless as that should be binned.
Image
User avatar
Ozoneocean
Newbie
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 3:14 pm
Location: Australia

Postby AFCErik on Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:23 pm

NotoriousMEQ,

First, please do not take me out of context. Here is what I actually said in full about your (and my) biases:

Actually, yes, I do believe you have a bias if you're not willing to look at a few photo comics that other posters said are good comics. It's exactly the same way I am biased against romance comics. I don't read them, I don't know them, so I don't nominate them. But, I sure don't lobby to get them removed from gaining recognition.


I have support for making the statement that are you biased. It is the following statement you make, where you explicitly state that you are not interested in following links to photocomics suggested by others:

to clarify myself on photocomics. There are hardly any in my view, and they do get attention. I don't personally love A Softer World or Sinister Bedfellows, though I really admire them both as awesome things. I hear them both mentioned. I know there are more vaguely, but having no particular interest, didn't follow through links. But still, there really can't be more than half a dozen that would get nominated, if any more exist.


It simply laughable that you claim you aren't biased after making that statement.

Please explain to me how "having no particular interest" is not a bias. Other posters are suggesting you look at this or that good photocomic. You explicitly said you did not because of lack of interest. I call that bias.

Did I say bias was bad? No. I'm not interested in romance comics. I'm not interested in following the links. However, I'm not going to rain on someone else's parade and lobby to get it removed.

I don't really know why you would extrapolate my arguments as indicating that I'm upset. If you think that argument in a debate means I'm "upset" or that "I need to calm down", you're wrong. Just take the statement for what it is. An admission that everyone is biased against this or that. I'm merely debating your points. I'm certainly not accusing you of being "upset" or that you should "calm down". That is an age old debating tactic of attacking the debater instead of addressing the arguments.

You state:

... [I] am waiting to see if anyone has any good reason why these excess categories do not discriminate against what does not fit in the category, elevate only what fits in the category, or are confusing to the average (and by average, I mean most voters who don't care, don't read too much, and are self-interested) voter.


1. Obviously, the categories discriminate against comics that don't fit in them. So what? How is that a bad thing? Having the other categories promotes participation.

2. Yes, of course, the category elevates what fits in the category. Again, so what? It's very nice that the CCA is using it's platform to help out some genres that would not get recognition otherwise.

3. Confusion of voters. Perhaps the CCA should add a suggestion in their instructions. Something like: "If you are not interested in, or do not know any comics in a specific category, just ignore that category or post a question on the forum."

I find it delicious that you think promoting one's own comic is bad.

Please explain to me why promoting one's own comic is bad.

I'm proud of what I do, and I don't have any qualms about suggesting to people that they give it a look. Nor do I have qualms about nominating my comic in categories that I think it fits in. Why do you think that is bad?

For what other reason do people participate in awards processes other than recognition? Studios and actors and film makers have entire marketing teams that create ads and lobby Oscar voters to get their movies nominated and to win.

I see a couple of issues with your suggestions of only 10 awards:

1. It will reduce participation. I don't know what the numbers are because I'm not on the board and I'm not married to someone who will show me the first-round ballots. But, I assume that the CCA gets a bunch of participation from people who vote in many of the categories you don't like. What would happen if you removed those categories? Would the CCA lose participation? You state that you think reducing the number of categories would INCREASE participation. I disagree. I think exactly the opposite would happen.

2. The CCA recognizes and promotes webcomics. What's the big deal with having categories that recognize and promote specific types of webcomics? Truly? What is the problem with that?

3. You seem to disagree with some of the nominations because you have an inside line and can see the first-round secret noms because your husband is on the board. I'm sorry you don't like what other people are nominating. But, isn't it a bit elitist to suggest that people are "dumb" and "stupid" because you don't like what's getting nominated? I hope that there are people on the board who are just happy that they get nominations, and don't complain about what people are nominating.

Finally, I am very appreciative of the board for what they do. I have thanked them repeatedly. I think they are doing a good job.

And now, I'm off to Fairbanks to check out the Aurora! Have a great weekend, folks.
Image
AFCErik
Newbie
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:57 pm
Location: Seattle

Postby RemusShepherd on Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:34 am

AFCErik wrote: 3. Confusion of voters. Perhaps the CCA should add a suggestion in their instructions.


Well, what the CCA needs to add first is, you know, instructions.

Having nomination/voting instructions buried in a long block of legalese is inexcusable. There should be one separate page with short, clear instructions on it.

I get the feeling that they were planning some kind of web-based automated nomination system, but it fell through, thus leaving the voters adrift at the last minute. Fair enough...but basic instructions are easy, and should have been part of someone's contingency plan.

The difficulty of participation is my one, and only, beef with the WCCA awards. Everything else is a matter of personal preference, and I'm content to let them run their show any way they like.
Image
User avatar
RemusShepherd
Cartoon Hero
 
Posts: 2011
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:23 pm

Postby NotoriousMEQ on Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:13 pm

AFCErik wrote:Please explain to me how "having no particular interest" is not a bias. Other posters are suggesting you look at this or that good photocomic. You explicitly said you did not because of lack of interest. I call that bias.


OK, the part where you quote me I give no example of how I was linked to these comics. In one case it was "this is a photocomic" sort of link, and the other was Alien loves Predator. Having never seen the movies, I figured it wasn't for me, so didn't click. Whatta bias! Please stop reading into what I write what you want to see and stop labeling me as some photocomic hater or whatever.
What context did I take you out of? You said I had a bias, I contend I don't.

I apologize for assuming you were upset, but you were putting a spin on my words I didn't intend and I thought clearly hadn't shown. I tend to respond with personal stuff, well, personally.

AFCErik wrote:Please explain to me why promoting one's own comic is bad.


It isn't, on it's own, but to skew awards to promote your own comic or particular interest, or to determine how something should work based on one's own work is wrong. When talking about the basics of what awards should be, it seems much more constructive to talk about them as removed from your own preferences for what comics need recognition.

AFCErik wrote:3. Confusion of voters. Perhaps the CCA should add a suggestion in their instructions.


There's been a lot of debate about this. Some say that instructions would help clarify what a category means, while some say the category should mean whatever people think it means. Since I think voting and nominating should be as easy as possible to get more people to do and do it well, I'm for categories that really need no explanation.

AFCErik wrote:1. It will reduce participation.


You're correct that we both theorize totally different consequences for reducing the number of awards. I don't think there are that many people who vote mostly because of certain categories. I'd also like to back up my previous reasons with the fact that I've seen a lot of behind-the-scenes work on these awards, including ballots and seen firsthand that people don't know what to do in so many categories. I've also seen, year after year, people give as an excuse for not nominating or voting that it was too much work.

AFCErik wrote:2. The CCA recognizes and promotes webcomics. What's the big deal with having categories that recognize and promote specific types of webcomics? Truly? What is the problem with that?


No problem. I like promoting them. I've suggested other ways for genres to promote comics that fall into them if the WCCAs move away from that because yes, I do see the need. Especially now when webcomics reporting has gotten so much better and webcomics blogs are becoming more numerous and better every year.

AFCErik wrote:3. You seem to disagree with some of the nominations because you have an inside line and can see the first-round secret noms because your husband is on the board. I'm sorry you don't like what other people are nominating. But, isn't it a bit elitist to suggest that people are "dumb" and "stupid" because you don't like what's getting nominated? I hope that there are people on the board who are just happy that they get nominations, and don't complain about what people are nominating.


Ha. No, really, I call myself "dumb", too. By that I mean most people aren't reading a lot of comics in the first place and aren't reading the one line clarifications of categories and the like. It's some laziness and some idiocy. It's not that I don't like what's being nominated. Like I said many times (and see, this is what makes me think you're not reading critically) I like many of the comics personally that are nominated, but they don't fit the category. Real Life as a reality comic is just silly. Doesn't mean I don't like the comic.


On a separate note, I was just reminded last night that when these awards were in their first year and there was a lot of discussion about how to proceed, Frank talked a lot with Scott McCloud on the subject. McCloud believed there should be no more than 4 categories. So he's more extreme than even I would suggest.

-megs
User avatar
NotoriousMEQ
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 854
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 1999 4:00 pm
Location: ATL -> Ottawa

Postby Mo on Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:25 pm

Just two things:

I support the notion of reducing the number of categories. I almost didn't finish my nomination ballot in time because it took so much time to fill it out! :x

Komiyan wrote:Also, I took it as an unwritten rule that you don't vote for yourself.

I was thinking the very same thing. *shrugs*
User avatar
Mo
Cartoon Villain (GTC)
 
Posts: 5085
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 6:55 am
Location: On the shoulder of a giant

Postby Spqrblues on Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:29 pm

I'd be curious what our guru Scott McCloud thought the four categories should be. If one concludes that streamlining is the way to go, why in the world would there be a need for more than "Best Comic," "Best Writing," and "Best Art"? That eliminates special interests or promotion of lesser-known genres, and makes it simply a reward for excellence, not specifics.
User avatar
Spqrblues
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:22 pm
Location: Forum Romanum

Postby Americangothic on Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:05 pm

I'm gonna be selfish here and say that categories like "Romance" have got to stay.

My comic for example is a romance-- there are 80 pages up and not a single weapon or violent act has happened yet. It's not really a slice of life, because it is a paranormal fantasy...so where do comics like mine fit in?

Maybe there should be a Soap Opera category :D ...just joking....

It's like going over to http://www.buzzcomix.net/ and looking at their choices of categories...why not use something like that? they are simple and many folks are familiar with them.
Image
User avatar
Americangothic
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 658
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 10:31 pm
Location: Nashvegas

Postby LibertyCabbage on Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:49 am

Since this thread is on the topic of reducing categories, I feel like giving my two cents, especially since it seems as sort of a compromise. First: Layout, Character Rendering, Environment Design, Website Design, Use of the Medium... out. I don't think anyone particularly cares about these categories, and they really encourage flashy techniques that stand out more than the simple but effective ones which are really no less outstanding, just less overt. Sure, these categories promote creativity and development of the medium, but I've always felt that the WCCA should be primarily about quality rather than originality. But, anyways, Layout and Character Rendering are such basic implementations of their respective fields, Writing and Art, that there's just really no reason to have them as their own categories. With Environment Design, it's really much too ambiguous for me to be notable (I doubt there's even a general consensus on what this means), and it's also a basic part of the Writing and Art processes. Website Design? I feel the same way as everyone that the website is very important and all that, but, really, it isn't part of the comic so I don't care, and I don't think most people care either. As long as I can browse the comic without too much difficulty and the background colors don't make my eyes bleed, I'm fine. Use of Medium... same deal, if a comic's really outstanding then it should get nominated in other categories anyway. A subpar comic shouldn't get exceptional recognition just because it incorporates unorthodox methods, and if these methods actually enhanced the writing and/or art of the comic significantly then the comic in question should be eligible for other categories (such as long form, sci-fi, etc) anyways. Plus, I feel like this category (and its predecessors) is a nod to the "webcomics are relevant because they aren't limited in the same ways as print comics" notion, but, really, I think we, as comic creators and fans, generally accept webcomics as being relevant without needing to be reminded of it, and anyone who disagrees probably doesn't give a rat's ass about the WCCA anyways.

Photocomics shouldn't receive their own category. Really, the only reason they even have a category now is because no one nominates them for the art categories, and have been considered to be plagued by a lack of appreciation or bias. But, I think people need to accept that if the voters think hand-drawn or digital art is more noteworthy then that's just how it is. It's no secret that the WCCA is purely a popularity contest. I really don't think it's fair for these comics to sort of side-step the voting process by getting a separate artistic category. There should only be 3 art categories: outstanding artist, color, and b&w; photocomics must strive to be the best in these categories or concede them to superior performance (as judged by popularity), just as every other artist does.

Character Writing and Outstanding Writer are too similar, especially since it's been well-established that character-based writing in webcomics is the most popular style anyways. So, CW should be cut. Then, I don't feel that the popularity or quantity of single-panel comics is enough to warrant a separate category, so it should be merged with short-form, which overlaps anyways. An outstanding single-panel comic could also be an outstanding short-form comic, so there's no point in keeping this rather insignificant category.

Personally, I've never understood the distinction between Long-form, Dramatic, and Romantic comics; particularly, in the ways that they overlap. For one, my understanding is that a Romantic comic is automatically a Dramatic comic as well, although not visa versa. However, a Dramatic comic seems to be able to be just about anything with a story, which would be what long-form is. And, then, applying the definition of drama to this situation, the implication would be that Outstanding Dramatic comic could apply to any comic that has emotional change in it, which is pretty much every single comic out there. So, I think things would be made easier if Dramatic and Romantic were one category, or Dramatic was eliminated, fixing a lot of this overlapping business that has made this area tricky for me in the past. Long-form and Romantic are both pretty clear in their intentions, so things should be ok.

My last suggestion for removal is the Anthro category. This category is different from the ones it's juxtaposed with as it relates to the aesthetics rather than content. "Anthro" describes very little; the comic could have animals behaving like humans and doing human activities, or it could involve talking squirrels running around the wood talking about their favorite kinds of nuts. But, it doesn't really matter, as anything here follows the same literary structure as a non-anthro work. In the case of the squirrels gathering nuts example, while it may seem like "Anthro" territory, I'd rather it be presented as Slice-of-Life, whereas the characteristics of SoL (focus on ordinary things, people, and events; character relationships; philosophy/morality) apply fine to the squirrels, as their "Anthro activities" are ordinary, slice-of-life stuff for them. I think the most obvious argument against Anthro would be to propose a Humanoid category, which recognizes comics that have Humanoids in them. This sort of category would be perceived as totally retarded, the reason being that the characters being Humanoid has no special relevance to the style or content of the comic, and does nothing at all but creates a copy of Outstanding Comic that certain comics are excluded from. However, the same exact thing applies to the Anthro category. All it does it provide an Outstanding Comic category that for whatever reason, comics based around humans are excluded from. I can easily think of several comics in which the characters being talking animals has no relevance at all to the story or setting, and seem to be this way mostly because the artist prefers drawing animals to people. So, WCCA bigwigs, I'd be appreciative if you could enlighten me on why you feel that comics about talking animals or objects are more noteworthy than comics about people, since that's what this category implies. Besides, Anthro comics are perfectly eligible to win all the other categories, so I don't see why this particular visual style should have a category unless an equivalent Outstanding Humanoid Comic category is proposed (which, as stated above, I feel would be totally retarded.)

After this reworking, the categories would be:
-Outstanding Comic
-Outstanding Newcomer
-Outstanding Artist
-Outstanding Use of Color
-Outstanding B&W Art
-Outstanding Writer
-Outstanding Long-Form
-Outstanding Short-Form
-Outstanding Comedic
-Outstanding Fantasy
-Outstanding Gaming
-Outstanding Slice-of-Life
-Outstanding Romantic/Dramatic
-Outstanding Sci-Fi
-Outstanding Superhero/Action

No fancy, difficult, or obscure categories, and all of these categories have a simple and easily understood implied meaning. All of the categories are interesting and noteworthy, increasing the prestige of getting a nomination/award. In addition, there's a pleasant and memorable order: 2 general awards, 3 awards for each field, and then 7 genre awards. 15 awards in total. So, hopefully this post is taken into consideration, as I think most people would be happy with it, especially if inflated self-interests are generally set aside.
ImageImage
"Seems like the only comics that would be good to this person are super action crazy lines, mega poses!"
User avatar
LibertyCabbage
Cartoon Hero
 
Posts: 4581
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:08 pm
Location: bat country

Postby Palantir on Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:44 am

I'm pretty happy with the over-all layout of the categories as they stand. I do agree that a survey sent out to determine what categories cause confusion would be great. Also clarity on the whole "you don't have to vote for every category" thing.

I like the idea of combining romantic and dramatic comics together, since they feel like the same thing in my mind... but then again, as per a thread I made in this forum, I think action and superhero categories should either be split or worded more clearly.

In all these cases, it isn't really the awards that I think need to be changed, but that way in which they are explained.
User avatar
Palantir
Newbie
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2003 10:51 pm
Location: Ohio

Postby Drathan on Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:01 am

Each one of us is going to have a different opinion on what should stay, what should be added, and what should go. I have to confess it irks me a bit when I read comments like "people are stupid". People are people, and these are the Web Cartoonist Choice Awards. They're not the Smart-According-To-Me Cartoonist Choice Awards. All it takes for you to vote, is to have a webcomic, and that is as it should be. Presumably the photographic category was added because the cartoonists wanted it so as expressed in their ballots last year?. If that's the case, then for that reason alone it should stay. People arent stupid. These are web cartoonists we're talking about, and desicions should be made based on the voting majority not the vocal minority in these forums.

So my final recommendation which you could probably guess by now would be to simply let the numbers make the choice: add to the ballot (maybe for the next round of voting) a section for which categories you'd like to see gone, besides the space for which categories you'd like to see new next year. Then the Web Cartoonist Choice Awards, Awards Whatever the Web Cartoonists Choose, and that is that.

P.S. I may be lynched for ignoring Scott McCloud (I hardly know who the guy is, just that many people worship him, and that's gonna cost me a second lynching) but if there were only 4 categories here, I wouldnt care for this contest -at all-, I'd just walk away knowing only the super popular have a chance, and what else is new? Boring. Walk away. As it is today on the other hand, I've gotten the chance to learn about some -a-ma-zing comics, like Crimson Dark and others, that I didn't know about before. I've been forced to widen my cultural horizons by learning about things I dont normally read, like slice-of-life comics, or romance, or anthros. It has been nice so far, I've met people. The Oscars dont have -just- 4 categories. They have 4 or 5 -top- categories, but then there's a shizload of other Oscars for e-very-thing else under the sun, maybe we should learn why.
Image
User avatar
Drathan
Newbie
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:18 am
Location: Area 51. Heheh :)

Postby Spqrblues on Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:38 am

drathan wrote:People are people, and these are the Web Cartoonist Choice Awards. They're not the Smart-According-To-Me Cartoonist Choice Awards.
...
P.S. I may be lynched for ignoring Scott McCloud (I hardly know who the guy is, just that many people worship him, and that's gonna cost me a second lynching) but if there were only 4 categories here, I wouldnt care for this contest -at all-, I'd just walk away knowing only the super popular have a chance, and what else is new? Boring. Walk away. As it is today on the other hand, I've gotten the chance to learn about some -a-ma-zing comics, like Crimson Dark and others, that I didn't know about before.

There are different currents to the arguments against your point of view:

1. The ballot is confusing and some people didn't see the instructions, which should have been clearly highlighted under their own heading
2. The awards don't look Important and like a Big Deal if smaller sub-groups get a smaller playing field
3. The components of a comic are not necessarily as laudable as the final complete product, which is all that matters
4. I don't like [type] comic
5. People's choices are laughable
6. Stop trying to win a popularity contest
7. Reasoned discussion of why certain categories are not distinguishable from others, and how this affects the process of nominating

Or maybe I'm just summing up my frustrations. It could be we dozen or so folks here are the only ones this concerned about the topic!

If I were tasked with eliminating "unnecessary categories," I very likely would slash and burn all the way down to the three I mentioned above, so that my "self interest" in wanting a category for photocomic (yah...) and anyone else's self interests are wiped right off the face of the internet. Then also include "Best Use of the Medium," for the voter to decide the meaning of (Flash, infinite canvas, interactivity--I'm still planning to get back to you on that, Marco!--website design, using random Google results in your comic, etc.). Eliminating categories that emphasise the technical forgets that these are, after all, webcomics, not "the easy way of publishing your comic if you can't get it printed." In the print world there are awards for design and layout. So, my "Three" becomes "Four." Then I would sit back and watch PvP and Penny Arcade, and other such ones that aren't on my personal reading list, and maybe also Schlock Mercenary, win a popularity contest through their sheer numbers of devotees, and I would not have discovered and had an opportunity to give a nod to all the comics I did this year. Any other categories just encourage people to think and explore--no, I mean, make dumb choices, yes?

Happy Edgar Allan Poe's Birthday, everyone. I have a supply of bricks, mortar, and fine wines, should you need them.
User avatar
Spqrblues
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:22 pm
Location: Forum Romanum

Postby Jdalton on Sat Jan 20, 2007 1:25 am

Personally, I don't like [type] comics.

Now that that's out of the way... My main reasons for participating in the WCCAs, both voting and watching, are entirely selfish. One being that I want to attempt to flog my own fairly adequate creations on unsuspecting readers, and the other that I want to discover new comics to read myself. The nomination round is barely over and so far both have been more successful than I'd hoped! I could quit now and be happy. There are, as Notorious suggests, other ways to promote and other ways to find new comics to read. But by packaging them as an awards show, there is the added benefit that I won't be missing out on the great new comics- the *best* comics- that I just never discovered through other venues. Two years ago (I think it was) I read Beaver and Steve for the first time through this excersise, and last year I found Nine Planets Without Intelligent Life and Starslip Crisis. With fewer categories all I would have found would be VG Cats and Penny Arcade year after year!

Yes it's a flawed system. Any attempt to categorize creative works is inherently flawed and any awards show will be tainted by blatant self-promoters like me who try to get all their friends on the ballot. But there's a reason I participate in the WCCAs and only watch the Emmys (if I watch them at all). I care about webcomics. And yes, I care in large part because I'm self-interested. But that does not negate my caring.
Jonathon Dalton
Image
User avatar
Jdalton
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: 1 hr east of Vancouver

Postby AFCErik on Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:52 am

Notorious,

I guess we have different definitions of bias. I don't believe a bias against photo webcomics means someone is a "hater". To me, bias is simply treating something differently (pro, con, or indifferently) than other things. To me, that's not bad. Everyone is biased about hundreds of things. It's no big deal.

What I tried to do by starting the "phocomic as a category" effort last year, was to increase exposure, acceptance, and popularity of photocomics. This would hopefully help overcome some of the bias that photocomics endure.

Your quote about promoting one's own webcomic being bad:

It isn't, on it's own, but to skew awards to promote your own comic or particular interest, or to determine how something should work based on one's own work is wrong. When talking about the basics of what awards should be, it seems much more constructive to talk about them as removed from your own preferences for what comics need recognition.


I disagree. I think it's right, not wrong. How else are people exposed to new things unless people who like those new things promote them? In all ways possible. Do you want everyone to discover things through word of mouth? That'll take a while, unless you are a good artist targeting a popular genre (gamers, etc). Not everyone knows this or that blog or review site. These CCAwards have a following, a following that likes webcomics. It is a perfect venue to promote photocomics, or romance comics, or whatever.

So, I lobbied to get photocomics added. Did I do this to help my comic? Yes! Did I do it to help photocomics? Much more so! My comic will not win the Outstanding Photocomic category. It doesn't have nearly the fan base to do so. I will be very surprised if my comic even gets nominated. However, several photocomics will be nominated and one will win, and all will get recognition. This will hopefully alleviate some of the bias against photocomics. Which was my goal in the first place. Hopefully, some people who aren't interested in trudging through a couple dozen photocomics will be willing to check out the winner and nominees.

I think the basics of the CCAwards should be to promote webcomics. That includes particular categories for genres/etc. that don't get a bunch of exposure.

Winnowing the categories down to a handful will reduce the number of webcomics that get exposure. I think this would be a bad thing.

Is there any way the board could publicize some of the numbers? Such as how many people voted, how many votes were cast in each category? And so on.
Image
AFCErik
Newbie
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:57 pm
Location: Seattle

Postby RemusShepherd on Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:04 am

spqrblues wrote:1. The ballot is confusing and some people didn't see the instructions, which should have been clearly highlighted under their own heading


Because I was the one griping about lack of instructions, I should note that the linked page effective says no more than, "Make up to three nominations in each category" and then recommends, "For more detailed information, refer to the Procedures and Rules", which is the long, dense block of legalese I mentioned.

These are not effective instructions. It's no wonder there is a lot of confusion about the WCCAs. They should have much more than this (look back in this thread for questions people have), and an additional FAQ might also be helpful.
Image
User avatar
RemusShepherd
Cartoon Hero
 
Posts: 2011
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:23 pm

Postby AFCErik on Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:50 am

I'm a technical writer by profession. If the board wants some help with instructions for next year, I volunteer.
Image
AFCErik
Newbie
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:57 pm
Location: Seattle

Postby Mckenzee on Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:33 pm

Hey, people are talking about me!

Personally, I would have liked to have been nominated for layout or for my writing. Really, those obscure modern koans are tough.

Also, I'm starting a new webcomic soon, Cthulhuvida, and hereby request a Nordic/Lovecraftian Linoblock-print category for 2008.
Mckenzee
Newbie
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 4:33 am

Postby Shin-goji on Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:54 pm

Personally, this is my first time being nominated, and I'm glad that Photocomics are getting some respect. I fully expect to get crushed like a little schoolgirl by Alien Loves Predator, but the fact that I am even nominated by my peers, and there are a lot of them, means a lot to me emotionally. Last year I kind of felt ignored by the Awards, but this year it feels good to be noticed, and the extra hits are definitely welcome.
Shin-goji
Newbie
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:11 am

Postby Dotty on Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:34 am

I thought the WCCA's were a good thing, and still do...but good god you need to have a better system in place for next year. Excel files in email for ballots? o_O Why not have something a tad more logical and something everyone can definitely use, like a site based thing.

I'm sure you were tied down for time and needed a quick solution, or at least thats what I'm praying. This years ballot was silly.

I didn't necessarily find it too long, because I filled it in one go...but I didn't fill in everything BECAUSE i didn't know of 3 outstanding photographic comics, or 3 best comics to feature an orange cat who likes lasanga.

I think a streamlining of the categories could work just fine, but you're definitely lacking categories that are necessary. Best Adult Webcomic. HELLO.

Knocking it down to 4 categories will just incite a new/old world of bitching. (Oh joy, another year of PA/VG Cats/PvP/Megatokyo) Don't streamline it down that far...but I'd swear i voted for the same category twice on a few occasions. Might want to look them over again.

Also, finally, I don't vote for myself. I just see it as weak, and if I was to be nominated, I'd like to think it was based entirely on the votes of others, and that my vote for myself didn't push me above the other nominees. You know, make me think maybe if I won it, I might deserve it.
Caught in the headlamp glare of your own blinding vanity/Mesmerised by the stare of your shallow personality
Gorging the junk food of flattery you drag your fat ego around/Everyone floored by the battering you give to whoever's around
Oh Narcissus you petulant child admiring yourself in the curve of my eyes/Oh Narcissus you angel beguiled unsated by self you do nothing but die
User avatar
Dotty
Cartoon Hero
 
Posts: 2434
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 8:29 pm
Location: Drunk!

PreviousNext

 

Return to Cartoonists' Choice Awards



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest