2005 Nominees Announced!

Discussion of the yearly awards for best comic in various categories.

Postby BloodKnight on Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:57 am

And you berate Alpha Shade for buying advertising, but it works, and if you want to get popular that badly, maybe you should do the same.


How am I berating something when simply mentioning that they advertise a lot?

They do. I've seen their ads run in many sites. If I had the money for it, I'll do the same thing.

I'm just saying that the comics nominated here are the same ones I've seen last year. And as arrogant as this may sound, CoG's artwork is up in the artwork department against even some of the subscribed webcomics. I've known lots of comic creators telling me that they nominated for CoG for things like best artwork, best writing, and so forth.

I'm not so angry as to why CoG didn't get nominated, but more angry for the mere fact that the nomination list is the same thing as last year. Errant story is back, despite being nominated last year.

It's these type of 'award ceremonies' that put a glass ceiling on many webcomics. CCAwards.com doesn't help the webcomic community one bit. If anything, it is part of the problem.
- Mark Iradian
Writer of Chronicles of Garas (A dark tech fantasy webcomic)
Image
Visit my LiveJournal
User avatar
BloodKnight
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 292
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:52 am
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Postby Keffria on Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:42 am

BloodKnight wrote:
And you berate Alpha Shade for buying advertising, but it works, and if you want to get popular that badly, maybe you should do the same.

How am I berating something when simply mentioning that they advertise a lot?

In the context of your post, you seemed to imply that the only reason why it was nominated for the awards was because of the artists' self-promotion. Perhaps I'm reading into things too much.

At any rate, I don't think that narrow-minded awards ceremonies are responsible for the current situation of the webcomicking community. I think it's all the squabbling, pointless debating, and that baffling combination of elitism and self-deprecation that really get us down.
User avatar
Keffria
The Wimpy Teaching Assistant (Mod)
The Wimpy Teaching Assistant (Mod)
 
Posts: 3749
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2003 12:07 pm
Location: not-France

Postby Cope on Wed Jun 08, 2005 12:23 pm

But self-deprecation makes a person great and grand through humility! But then, you shouldn't really listen to me; I'm an ignorant talentless loser with no life...

*sucks his thumb in the corner*
Image Image
"I've always been fascinated by failure!" -Charlie Brown
User avatar
Cope
Incompetent Monster
 
Posts: 7249
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 8:37 pm
Location: Masked man of mystery

Postby Dutch! on Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:14 pm

No, we're humble little Aussie battlers...there's a definite difference.

And we're afflicted with Tall Poppy Syndrome so whoever wins those awards better watch out cos we're gonna try to cut you down!
Remember when your imagination was real? When the day seemed
longer than it was, and tomorrow was always another game away?
Image
User avatar
Dutch!
Red galah
 
Posts: 4644
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2004 4:39 am
Location: The best place on this little blue rock

Postby Xmung on Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:24 pm

BloodKnight wrote:I'm just saying that the comics nominated here are the same ones I've seen last year. And as arrogant as this may sound, CoG's artwork is up in the artwork department against even some of the subscribed webcomics. I've known lots of comic creators telling me that they nominated for CoG for things like best artwork, best writing, and so forth.

well, magellan (and quite a few others) weren't on last years list. there are plenty of worthy comics that were on last years list that aren't there this year. sure there are plenty of outstanding comics that didn't make it onto the list - the difficulty is that the potential field is so huge (tens of thousands).

i can see partly what your problem may be - i think CoG's art is rather excellent and i'd have to read it fully before commenting on the writing - possibly your nominations were a bit scattergun... that is, some people nominated you for writing, some for art, some for so forth. in total, the sum of the the somes in each catagory was not enough against those that got up for nomination.

when noms were being called i figured i'd stand a better chance (especially as a new comic) of getting up if i just asked for one thing from my readers: 'superhero catagory'. if i had figured my art was knock-out i would have asked for that instead. it helps focus people when they get to the list. if i'd asked generally for a nomination then chances are they'd have 'x'-ed various boxes between the lot of them and magellan wouldn't have had enough in any catagory.

i don't think magellan has a massive readership by any stretch of the imagination, and being behind a subscription wall actually hinders rather than helps so i'm pretty chuffed and thankful that magellan made it thru - it would be neat to win but that's a long stretch.
Magellan ... super hero cadets - their worst enemy is themselves!
Loxie and Zoot ... cos nudists have adventures too y'know!
User avatar
Xmung
Cartoon Hero
 
Posts: 1173
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 5:50 pm
Location: Sydney, Oz

Postby Cope on Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:50 pm

Dutch! wrote:we're afflicted with Tall Poppy Syndrome so whoever wins those awards better watch out cos we're gonna try to cut you down!

*revs up his chainsaw*
Image Image
"I've always been fascinated by failure!" -Charlie Brown
User avatar
Cope
Incompetent Monster
 
Posts: 7249
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 8:37 pm
Location: Masked man of mystery

Postby MissMab on Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:45 pm

I still dont know how DMFA got nominated. I was pretty sure that rock I was hiding was a good one. Meh. The whole thing makes me a little mooky to be honest since I'm not sure if I should feel competitive or do something or actually attempt to be social. I mean it'd be nice to be all talkative and interract with groups but other artists are scary and talented and full of teeth. O_o;

As for award things, I wouldnt say these are like the oscars. A movie is generally a one shot year thing. If anything the awards would be something like the ones given to tv series and chances are there are a few in genres that take home the award every year and are renominated time and time again.

Personally speaking, I'd feel a little meh about the whole ceremony if they had a limit placed on the times a certain comic can be nominated. Cause if I'm going to have to be put into competition, I'd rather be stuck in it knowing I at least got there on my own merits rather than the result of the picking pool being slowly graded out.

Either way, it should be an interesting time. Now I better go find a better hiding rock.
Image "Zzzzzzzz...."Mab's Land and DMFA Comics
User avatar
MissMab
Newbie
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:57 am

Postby Zortic on Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:04 pm

MissMab wrote:Personally speaking, I'd feel a little meh about the whole ceremony if they had a limit placed on the times a certain comic can be nominated. Cause if I'm going to have to be put into competition, I'd rather be stuck in it knowing I at least got there on my own merits rather than the result of the picking pool being slowly graded out.



That's exactly the reason that we don't narrow the field. As I pointed out earlier, last year A BRAND NEW COMIC won the top category. So how can you possibly say that the same comics always win?
visit <A HREF="http://www.zortic.com" TARGET=_blank>Zortic</A>
and <A HREF="http://www.abbysagency.us" TARGET=_blank>Abby's Agency</A>
and the <A HREF="http://www.ccawards.com" TARGET=_blank>Web Cartoonists' Choice Awards</A>
User avatar
Zortic
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 174
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 1999 4:00 pm
Location: Davenport, Florida, United States

Postby BloodKnight on Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:17 pm

Zortic wrote:
MissMab wrote:Personally speaking, I'd feel a little meh about the whole ceremony if they had a limit placed on the times a certain comic can be nominated. Cause if I'm going to have to be put into competition, I'd rather be stuck in it knowing I at least got there on my own merits rather than the result of the picking pool being slowly graded out.



That's exactly the reason that we don't narrow the field. As I pointed out earlier, last year A BRAND NEW COMIC won the top category. So how can you possibly say that the same comics always win?


The point is...you are putting comics that either were already nominated last year or won an award already. For an award program, this literally makes no god damn sense.

2004 - best artwork award goes to MacHall
2005 - Machall is nominated for best artwork *again*

It already won the award once, why does it need to win it again? I'm just saying that these awards are making it harder for the small time webcomics to even get through the glass above us. The only way a webcomic gets popular is either word of mouth or advertising. Advertising costs lots of money, word of mouth such as these awards is free.

The problem is you cater to the big name comics, for reasons really unknown, and pushing those small time comics back. People already know about Penny Arcade, Megatokyo, and so forth, so on earth do they need to be awarded *again* or even nominated?

It just annoys me because all you are doing is wasting bandwidth on an award system catering to big names, just like every other webcomic award system. You think an award program hosted on Keenspace would go with the smaller webcomics out there.
- Mark Iradian
Writer of Chronicles of Garas (A dark tech fantasy webcomic)
Image
Visit my LiveJournal
User avatar
BloodKnight
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 292
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:52 am
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Postby MissMab on Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:20 pm

I'm not sure how it makes sense that a website of quality to be nominated one year becomes disqualified the next just because they were prior. An athlete at the Olympics doesn't stop competing or get shuffled out just because they won the gold. There have been many great athletes who have won multiple years of medals or at least competed.

TV show wise(man...this is so going to show how long its been since I've watched TV) if Frasier wins an award for a good season run for best whatever, it shouldn't mean they are now not allowed to be up for the same award next season if their show has continued to prove worthy of renomination.

A webcomic that gets nominated multiple years might have success and big names behind them, but one of the reasons they do is also because many of the people behind them are indeed working their booty off as hard as the newcomers entering the field. Using Errant story as a reference, despite the occasional real life downtime, the person who does the strip tends to update regularly, does keep an overall high quality of art, and works pretty hard from what I can see. Simply because he won or was nominated last year shouldn't be a reason to discredit the work he's done since then.

Don't get me wrong. I am fully aware of the suckage(which was really why I was surprised I squeaked in a category since I never advertise or do anything in regards to these awards) that comes with not getting nearly as much credit and feeling under the shadow of a comic that has thousands more hits/fans/potential nominations. And when one sees similar comics nominated multiple times over after year, it starts to feel much like a group of webcomic artists in a circle just shaking hands and congratulating eachother.

It would be nice if there were more ways to let lesser-known comics into the fray without having to coddle them. I can't think of anyone who would want an award knowing that the only reason they got it was because people felt sorry for them and crippled the other competitors. If this is to be any merit of an award system, dumbing down competition simply to use the award as a publicity booster for a smaller known comic would be far worse I feel.

Eh. Either way this award thing means more to others than to me I confess. I'm happy with where my comic is at and I don't need an award or nomination to validate my feeling of worth in a comic community. Don't get me wrong, the feeling of 'woo! I'm going to be slaughtered by Digger!' is giddy. But it isn't the reason I do a comic, and I'll likely continue with DMFA regardless of outcome.
Image "Zzzzzzzz...."Mab's Land and DMFA Comics
User avatar
MissMab
Newbie
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:57 am

Postby Dutch! on Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:49 pm

BloodKnight, I just had a quick glance at your site, and yeah, the art work's pretty impressive on the front episode. Yes, it's artistically better than a lot that's out there and a lot of work's gone into it, but it's not the best looking comic I've seen artwise in that style, and the particular comic I'm thinking about here didn't make nominations either. I suppose I'm just saying there's heaps out there that didn't make the cut or even realise there was one to make because there's so many out there.

If I knew people thought enough about both these awards AND my own work to even put in a single nomiation I'd be as proud as an ape with seven dicks. I'm sure you are too.

Incidentally, I'm impressed with the site design...the backgrounds and stuff look really good.
Remember when your imagination was real? When the day seemed
longer than it was, and tomorrow was always another game away?
Image
User avatar
Dutch!
Red galah
 
Posts: 4644
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2004 4:39 am
Location: The best place on this little blue rock

Postby Xmung on Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:10 am

Dutch! wrote:...I'd be as proud as an ape with seven dicks.

just imagine the spam you'd get!
Magellan ... super hero cadets - their worst enemy is themselves!
Loxie and Zoot ... cos nudists have adventures too y'know!
User avatar
Xmung
Cartoon Hero
 
Posts: 1173
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 5:50 pm
Location: Sydney, Oz

Postby BloodKnight on Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:16 am

I'm not sure how it makes sense that a website of quality to be nominated one year becomes disqualified the next just because they were prior. An athlete at the Olympics doesn't stop competing or get shuffled out just because they won the gold. There have been many great athletes who have won multiple years of medals or at least competed.


The problem with your analogy with the olympics is comics, like television, is considered entertainment and not a competitive athletic sport.

As I stated several times already, it doesn't make sense if a comic is nominated again when it won an award last year or was nominated last year but didn't win. It's kind of like awarding Nirvana's Nevermind for best album or the original trilogy of Star Wars for film of the year in 2005. I just don't understand the logic behind these rules. All it does is provide a bigger gap in webcomics.

I would like to honestly hear Zortic's reasoning for this.
- Mark Iradian
Writer of Chronicles of Garas (A dark tech fantasy webcomic)
Image
Visit my LiveJournal
User avatar
BloodKnight
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 292
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:52 am
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Postby Tmonter on Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:59 am

I have to agree with bloodnight here, but not for his reasons

Of course these are going to boil down to a popularity contest, and it's because of the way they're set up...

Honestly if they wanted to make it fair, they would have compiled a list of sites eligable for each of the categories. A lot of work I'm sure, but then the lesser known comics would have gotten a fair shake at a nomination because voters would have gone out and looked at the sites they never heard of before making nominations... They also should have allowed up to 7 or even 10 nominations per category. This helps eliminate ties and again gives lesser known comics a fair shake

2 benefits here. One: the community itself becomes more aware of comics that aren't normally going to be on the top of comic lists which alredy are popularity contests, Two: It guarantees a fair nomination process

without that list, people do what people do... and that means they nominate for the comics they know, and voila instant popularity contest

I mean honestly take a look at the sci fi nominations and then go to any web comic index. Other then Dicebox, you can find 3 better sci-fi comics on the first page of any comic list...even the 4th page...not knocking the humor oriented strips, but I don't put them in the same category as true science fiction

Again, shouldn't it be up to the folks running it to figure out which comics are eligable and which aren't... should a humorous comic be in the same category as a serious sci-fi comic? Even the Emmy's separate these categories, and rightfully so.

With the Oscars they do an elligability list with all films for any given category, then a short list (those that recieved nominations), then a narrowing to the top 5, then a vote.

Anyways, without a rules change or at least category clarification, this is my first and most likely last signup for these awards. I'm still deciding on whether or not I plan on bothering casting a ballot this year

If you have any doubt as to how flawed your current system is, when the voting is done, compare the number of nominations any strip got, then compare to the number of votes... I'm sure that from a percentage stand point there will be little variation, but if the only mission here is to get more recognition for very popular comics, what's the point? That IS what the comic listing sites are for...

as for the outstanding website design question posed previously, if a website design wins or is nominated one year, and it isn't changed during the next year, why should it be eligable again? In the Olympics, the athlete has to perform again to win, on the web, you can have a well designed site and leave it alone, and that's still eligable why? If they redesign it, sure, if not it shouldn't be eligable 2 years in a row....
Tmonter
Newbie
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:22 am

Postby Tmonter on Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:33 pm

I would also suggest a breaking up of
Humor/Dramatic categories in the following categories

OUTSTANDING FANTASY COMIC, OUTSTANDING CHARACTER, OUTSTANDING REALITY COMIC, OUTSTANDING ROMANTIC,
OUTSTANDING SCIENCE FICTION COMIC, COMIC,OUTSTANDING SUPERHERO / ACTION COMIC

should a well thought out, character defining writer really have to compete with who tells the funniest jokes...

and please don't try and argue that the people who decide whether a comic is elligible for voting in these awards at all, are incapable of figuring out which comic should and shouldn't be in any given category

the "Open Field" excuse just sounds like laziness...
So Iguess it boils down to, do they want the CCA Award to actually mean something? or is it just another "Joe Schmoe's Cool Comic Award (hosted by geocities)"
Last edited by Tmonter on Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Tmonter
Newbie
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:22 am

Postby Dutch! on Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:36 pm

BloodKnight wrote:It's kind of like awarding Nirvana's Nevermind for best album or the original trilogy of Star Wars for film of the year in 2005.


Movies and albums are once off entities. They are finished and whole and that's it, so that example would be correct. These webcomics are still in production and still evolving, so it would be better to reference them against a sitcom or television drama getting nominated twice in a row because it's still being created, broadcast, watched, etc.

If it is still being created in the year of nominations, then I don't see your current argument for not including it in nominations being suitable.
Remember when your imagination was real? When the day seemed
longer than it was, and tomorrow was always another game away?
Image
User avatar
Dutch!
Red galah
 
Posts: 4644
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2004 4:39 am
Location: The best place on this little blue rock

Postby MissMab on Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:58 pm

I have witnessed a great many comics of good quality take a turn for massive SUCK the following year. I have also seen many good comics fall off the planet into haitus-land. But by and large, a comic is a continuing process and the time between one year of nominations and a second year can span close to 50-365 strips of change/story/improvement/excellence.

I used the olympics metaphor not to be a precise thing, as most metaphors are never exact. But I mearly wished to point out that winning one year doesn't disqualify an athlete if that athlete continues to prove their merit. Likewise, a comic strip shouldn't be blacklisted simply because they have one once. These awards from what I gathered are not about letting everyone who wants it to have a turn in the light, it is more or less a competition.

It isn't exactly always a FAIR competition. I know this. I accept this. I think everyone involved in a way sees the apparent flaws when the same 3 strips take home half the awards three years in a row. That is why I presume Zortic after the end of last years competition specifically asked for people to sign up and help out in order to try to come up with ways to resolve said problems. And chances are after this one he will make the exact same offer.

Thing is, I understand the point of views. I've sat through maybe all of these awards and seen the same arguments being brought up. It sucks because at this point I would place money that what will happen is people will be upset, the awards end, no one will volunteer to help, another year will pass, new nominees will anounce, and another round of the exact same argument will begin.
Image "Zzzzzzzz...."Mab's Land and DMFA Comics
User avatar
MissMab
Newbie
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:57 am

Postby Tmonter on Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:48 pm

fair competition should be the basis of any awards or votes

how many high quality comics are floating around out there that didn't even recieve a single nomination for lack of anyone knowing about them

again, it's good for the whole. if that's not apparent to you and the folks running these, then I don't know what to say

look if this is just a mega comic love fest, why bother calling it an award?
I gave my suggestions above and he's free to use them, but the only way for the nomination process to be fair would be to have all elligable strips in a category listed...

again, the open field bit just sounds lazy... Should I point out that Jethro Tull won the best Heavy Metal album the first year of the award...Think about that.

To use your anology again... How many folks at the Olympics get to walk from the stands down to the track and do the 500 meter relay?

Well guess what...this is supposed to be a race for everyone who runs... so why not give everyone the same starting line

in case it didn't occur to you PEOPLE DON"T TEND TO ENTER CONTESTS THEY KNOW THEY CAN"T WIN.

so level the playing field, if these mega comix are all they're cracked up to be, then at least the smaller comics had a legit shot otherwise why bother with the nominations at all... just pull the top 5 comics in each category from a handful of comic lists and hand out the awards...you'll get the same result

and nowhere did I say that any comic should be left out of a category for prior wins, I'm more interested in equal representation for the nomination process. I already stated my opinions on the outstanding web sites so I won't bother to rehash.

I came, I registered, and I saw this outcome, and as this is my first year signing up for this, without substantial changes it will be my last... why participate in something that I'm automatically excluded from winning? I'm sure a lot of folks feel that way.
Tmonter
Newbie
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:22 am

Postby MissMab on Thu Jun 09, 2005 5:47 pm

There are hundreds(maybe thousands now) of webcomics out there, listing them all would probably do as much difference as an open nomination since over half the people out there will likely just pick the one they are familiar with from the list rather than actively go and read every available nominee. No one has that much time to do that. If one nomination category consists of over 30+ comics and there are over 15 categories, and a good majority of comics contain a large archive...that is insane to consider people are actually going to sit down and properly weigh out each and every nomination the way they should to have a fair decision.

(Or even worse, people go simply to the main page to check out the most recent comic...meaning if that comic has a guest comic or just happens to be not at their best at that one particular time, their entire comic gets thrown into disregard cause of a first impression)

It is unfair that nominations are bought either by being a member of a group of comic friends, or that simply by having a following of God and being famous rounds up a lot of the attention when some incredibly talented comic in the shadows that has just as much skill and potentional is left out simply because they are not part of a big syndicate or have a lot of connections.

I wish peeps luck leveling the playing field, but I admit I'm a cynic and I see the same results happening regardless of if the list contains 4 nominees or 40.
Image "Zzzzzzzz...."Mab's Land and DMFA Comics
User avatar
MissMab
Newbie
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:57 am

Postby Tmonter on Thu Jun 09, 2005 9:22 pm

so what you're saying is you don't expect to win because you don't whore your comic enough...

well seeing as you've been involved with this awhile, and apparently you've seen no change, and apparently no one here willing to really make changes but they'll ask for your suggestions...and then promptly ignore them

I've got better things to do then waste time with a community that is more involved with whoring and the status quo then really recognizing the talent within it's own community

I guess the problem with this community can be summed up as:
How many graphic artists does it take to change a light bulb
Just one, but I would have done it better then that untalented hack...

back to obscurity... good luck with the "awards"
Tmonter
Newbie
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:22 am

PreviousNext

 

Return to Cartoonists' Choice Awards



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron