IPoW #5 - There's room for all god's creatures...

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What's for dinner?

It's tragic and barbaric that you feel a need to harm another living thing to further your own existence.
1
3%
Humans were designed to be herbivores, and that's what you should be.
0
No votes
Animal -products-, such as eggs, milk, and cheese are ok, if they're cruelty free.
1
3%
We shouldn't eat higher animals. Fish and fowel are ok.
1
3%
Bovines & other ruminants, and "standard" fish & fowel are fine for dinner.
1
3%
As above, but why not add pork?
7
23%
Horses, Dolphins, Whales, and Primates are fine, too.
0
No votes
Even pet-animals... Dogs, cats, etc.
1
3%
Insects are an extremely valuable and abundant source of proteins.
4
13%
Two words: Omnivore, baby! Now eat your pasta, grandma. Your "goodbye dinner" is next month.
15
48%
 
Total votes: 31

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IPoW #5 - There's room for all god's creatures...

Post by Honor »

...Right next to the potatoes and gravy!

That's right... It's time for the Inflammatory Poll of the Week! (or, as Lestheron calls it, the "Are you smart enough to agree with Honor?" test... )

Isn't it a little remarkable that, after all this time, the vast majority of the human diet can be reduced to, essentially, three plants, four animals, foods derived from those seven items, and a small enough percentage of other things as to be more or less proper to define them as garnish and seasonings?

This is particularly true of North America and Europe.

Here in North America, we mostly don't like to eat anything that's cute, or particularly "gross", but other places have more broad palettes.

In India and parts of Africa, monkey - fellow primates - are something of a delicacy. In Korea, they'll happily eat a dog. The French will eat a horse. Cats, rats, lizards, bugs, and even people are or have been on the menu, in various times and places.

There was a time, of course, when there was no debate over which animals it was appropriate to eat. The answer was "The ones you can catch and kill, or find dead."

And, really, isn't that more "natural"? I've recently been reminded of an African saying...
When the sun comes up, a gazelle will awaken. He knows he has to outrun the fastest lion, or he'll be killed and eaten. Also, a lion will awaken. She knows he has to outrun the slowest gazelle, or she'll starve and die. So, it doesn't really matter whether you're a gazelle or a lion... When the sun comes up, you'd better start running.
So... What should we eat? What -shouldn't- we eat? And why?

The poll categories are intended to elevate from "almost nothing" to "almost everything", and I realize some folk will consider some things "higher" on the list to belong "lower" on the list... say, bugs before dogs, for instance... All I can do is apologize in advance. I had to choose -some- order.

Think we can get through this one without it devolving to religion and spirituality? I actually thought I was safe until I remembered Leviticus.
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Post by Lulujayne »

I'm going with omnivore, it makes evolutionary sense, as evidenced by our teeth - good flat molars for cellulose and small though pronounced canines for tearing into meat.

And as always, too much of anything is too much.


Incidentally, lightly cooked grasshopppers taste surprisingly similar to popcorn, and are a great bar snack. :)
I shall keep myself in oysters for the rest of the week, thank you very much.

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Post by Honor »

Lulujayne wrote:I'm going with omnivore, it makes evolutionary sense, as evidenced by our teeth - good flat molars for cellulose and small though pronounced canines for tearing into meat.
...Even Grandma? :-)
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Post by Xero »

Honor wrote:
Lulujayne wrote:I'm going with omnivore, it makes evolutionary sense, as evidenced by our teeth - good flat molars for cellulose and small though pronounced canines for tearing into meat.
...Even Grandma? :-)
especially grandmas
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Post by Lulujayne »

I suppose if I was stuck on a barren atoll with Grandma in the middle of a lifeless ocean, and she happened to keel over (not due to any infectious disease) I'd dig in, and hope the rescue plane arrived before she she got, how shall we say, a little gamey :)

But for cannibalism as a regular daily breakfast I'd have to say no - Kuru is a nasty way to die. Besides, as far as I know, groups of people who have practiced cannibalism did so ceremonially, and not as a "three-squares-a-day" kind of thing. Prions are scary little buggers, and I'd like them nowhere near my brain :D
I shall keep myself in oysters for the rest of the week, thank you very much.

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Post by Honor »

Yeah... I'd still like to be able to travel back in time to witness the moment when someone first convinced someone else that feeding cows cows was a good idea.
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Post by Ce6 »

Lulujayne wrote:...
But for cannibalism as a regular daily breakfast I'd have to say no - Kuru is a nasty way to die. Besides, as far as I know, groups of people who have practiced cannibalism did so ceremonially, and not as a "three-squares-a-day" kind of thing. Prions are scary little buggers, and I'd like them nowhere near my brain :D
Not to mention that unless you have a herd of them somewhere to harvest from, regular cannibalism doesn't lend itself to long-term population growth of one's society.
Economically, however, it might work out for some poorer families to sell off a few extra children provided demand remained relatively modest (as I can only imagine that the wealthy would be able to afford such a thing).

As for bugs and such, while I may not personally eat them (yet), if they can be caught, someone somewhere will have tried it and probably found it delicious ;)
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Post by Lowky »

Again I went with omnivore. I deplore alot of the farming methods of today and really think we need to go with the true omnivore and not just carnivore. Our diet is mostly meat anymore and meat used to be more of a side dish with vegetables adn fruits being the primary diet. The amount of food that can be grown in the same area that cows need to graze is staggering ( I suppose if people want I can go hunt for the data, haven't looked since I gave up the vegetarian thing I started in college). Also chickens are not meant to be crammed in cages in the amount of space that one or two would normally live. The term pecking order came from chickens and similar birds. They literally peck one another to establish dominance and territory. Factory farms cut off their beaks so they can't do that. I also have issues with veal, in how it is raised. They also give them large amounts of growth hormones to get them to market sooner. It's no wonder kids are entering puberty at younger ages as well as a rise in cancer.

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Post by Boring 7 »

I am not that big a fan of insect, though they are certainly reasonable, if not laudable (better protein ratio, if cleaned less chance of disease since what affects bugs doesn't affect humans, etc.)

Human is first a question of "who shall you kill?" and second a question of misfolding proteins that eat your brain. (I don't know all the details, but neither do the people studying them)

Cute critters, especially pets, is something I disagree with because they're cute. So there.

Everything else, the cows, goats, pigs, chickens, sheep, quail, turkey, apples, oranges, etc. are all just fine.

Though if you really want to inflame the board, use this little quotable quote:
"A vegan diet is healthier than the average American diet."
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Post by Vedius Pollio »

Well, it can be said that Kuru/Creuzfeld-Jakob Disease makes cannibalism unfeasible. But by the same logic, AIDS makes being gay unfeasible.

I have no moral objections to either of the above, as long as all of the people involved (the top, the bottom, the food, and the cannibal) are consenting adults.

Scientists need to find cures for AIDS and kuru!

The faster this happens, the faster we can throw out a bunch of outdated myths that kuru and AIDS are God's way of punishing transgressions. This mythology is untrue, because until recently, an enormous manner of women died in childbirth. So, if the existence of AIDS and kuru mean that gays and cannibals are worthy of punishment, the existence of childbirth complications must by extension mean that heterosexual women are worthy of punishment, (and syphillis must mean the same thing for straight men).

Thus, it is impossible for a person to lead ANY kind of lifestyle without health consequences. However, the health consequences of some lifestyles have cures, while the health consequences of others don't.

I don't believe in eating grandmothers, because the meat would probably be too stringy. However, I would support a law whereby suicidally depressed 18 year old women would be given the chance to have their bodies donated to restaurants upon their deaths. (Kind of like an organ donation.)

Any law that would piss off the church is fine by me.
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Post by Lowky »

ooh ooh, remove the one child ban in China, and allow them to eat the babies that aren't sons, which is why most of them want to have more than one baby anyways.

Baby the other other white meat! removes the whole stringy factor of Grandmas. Baby it's juicy and tender!

Baby, It's what's for dinner!

Oh and best quote I ever saw for vegetarians is, I am not a vegetarian because I love animals, I am a vegetarian because I hate plants.

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Post by Seth Marati »

My view of the subject is "If you tend to bond with it, don't eat it."

Now, this leaves some things open to interpretation, since different people and different cultures form bonds with different animals. But the basic idea is that anything which falls within the influence of your human pack-forming instinct shouldn't be used as food.

As for eating in general, I agree with people who say the American diet is too meat-centric. But I strongly disagree with people who say we should eliminate it from our diets entirely. We just could stand to eat less of it - treating it as an accent or a savory side, instead of an entrée. Vegetables are tasty, darn it! Why people always gotta be so down on 'em?

Oh, and I've eaten an insect once, and that was as part of a lollipop modeled to resemble a piece of amber with a bug preserved inside. I'd like to try them as more of a "food" thing at least once. So once again, I don't know where to vote on the poll. I'd eat insects before I'd eat a cat.

Edit: Okay, who voted for the first option? I need to have a talk with that person.
Last edited by Seth Marati on Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Honor »

Lowky wrote:ooh ooh, remove the one child ban in China, and allow them to eat the babies that aren't sons, which is why most of them want to have more than one baby anyways.
I saw a documentary that pretty firmly implied that this limit was over, speaking of whole generations of only-children, etc... But one minute research quest only finds me hints that it's been altered in some provinces, under some circumstances.

I always kind of liked the idea of fees for extra kids... It's always struck me as grossly perverse that, in America, you get the best tax breaks for using more tax resources... So that, if you have a kid and I have none, I pay more taxes for your kid than you do.

...Prolly a future IPoW in there somewhere...
boring 7 wrote:Though if you really want to inflame the board, use this little quotable quote:
"A vegan diet is healthier than the average American diet."
Heh... Now you've gone and done it. While vegan diets may be creepy and unnatural, I suspect there are forms of suicide that are healthier than the average American diet. :-)
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Post by WangyJohn »

"creepy and unatural"? Gee, what else I've heard that referring to?

Anyway, I'm a bit of a hypocrite (see, I'm allready giving you weapons against me). I support vegetarianism, though just yesturday I gleefully ate a huge plate of Kebab, and today, three sausages that consist mostly of all that's not meat on animals.

But the catch is, I'm not one of those animal rights -people. Gazeele must outrun the lion, the lion outrun the gazelle, that's how it works. But with the current population levels, the western diet cannot afford to spread. But the change should come in the macro level, a few hippies eating lentil won't change shit.

The amount of grain and soy fed to animals to feed people is ridiculous, I think everyone should have a few days every week without meat, and with little animal products in general.
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Post by Honor »

WangyJohn wrote:"creepy and unatural"? Gee, what else I've heard that referring to?
Heh... Don't even try it.

It's "creepy" because of the way strident vegans usually make me feel... No scientific evidence, no absolute values, no "Grand Higher Truth"... They just usually strike me as inherently squirrelly and unstable... I distrust them on an instinctive level, because they act and sound crazy.

It's unnatural because if it weren't for eating meat, we'd still be roaming the Serengeti wishing we could make better stone tools. Who knows... It's possible it started with community grooming behaviours... Maybe just that little bit of animal protein was enough to spark the Hunger... But, wherever it came from, the high-yield food value of animal protein is what paid for our big, complex brains, and our closest relatives still live with that drive, yielding to an all-but-irresistible drive to obtain and eat meat.

Watch a troupe of chimpanzees hunt and devour smaller monkeys... It's so driven and visceral it's almost terrifying.


I can certainly agree with the idea that our taste for meat is causing some profound environmental damage, though... I can certainly agree with a moral or ethical twinge because of it.

Maybe we can learn to vat-grow meat... Maybe we can get more and more efficient at growing food for food animals... Maybe we're just at too high a population density and we need to get crackin' on extra-planetary and extra-solar colonization... I don't know.

What I do know is that I can install solar panels and turn off lights and drive less, or drive more efficient cars to save the planet... I don't think I can de-evolve back to being a herbivore, though. Eating the food I've evolved to eat, and evolved -because of- eating isn't a disposable luxury.
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Post by ManaUser »

Vedius Pollio wrote:The faster this happens, the faster we can throw out a bunch of outdated myths that kuru and AIDS are God's way of punishing transgressions. This mythology is untrue, because until recently, an enormous manner of women died in childbirth. So, if the existence of AIDS and kuru mean that gays and cannibals are worthy of punishment, the existence of childbirth complications must by extension mean that heterosexual women are worthy of punishment, (and syphillis must mean the same thing for straight men).
Ah good, I see we've wasted no time turning this into another silly religion argument.

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Post by Honor »

ManaUser wrote:Ah good, I see we've wasted no time turning this into another silly religion argument.
Religious arguments are gods way of punishing intelligent people.


I tried man... I tried... Fuck.
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Post by Seth Marati »

If, to avoid another religious debate, I might employ some misdirection with a broad, offensive generalization:

The thing about most strident vegans is that a lot of them are stoners, so they're hard pressed to notice the loss in brain function that comes from insufficient protein.
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Post by Toawa »

Ah, what a nice break... A topic where I won't be the only person (or one of two people) on my side. :)
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Post by Sonofzeal »

I'd eat dogs and cats before dolphins and primates, and I'd eat insects before either, but that's neither here nor there. I'd be willing to not eat anything higher on the list than beef and chicken, and I would generally avoid eating any carnivore or human, mostly because toxins concentrate the higher up the food chain you go.

Honor, I'd like to see your list of three plants and four animals. From what I've seen, our current reductionist diet is rather unnatural from a historical perspective, and I can't think of anything that would have been in common all over the world. And if you broaden the search, you get a whole lot more - beef, chicken, mutton, ham, venison, turkey, wheat (and beer), corn, potatoes, rice (and sake), grapes (and wine), milk, peanuts, manioc, bananas, mushrooms. I'm sure there's more, but you get the point. We shouldn't assume that just because it forms the basis for what we eat, that it's universal. That said, I totally agree with your conclusions.

Oh, and whoever voted for the first option - congratulations, I hope you enjoy your new diet of..... salt. Num num.

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