Apophenia 357 Discussion Thread

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Apophenia 357 Discussion Thread

Postby Ghastly on Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:26 pm

I've decided to make a nice little sticky to help create a dialogue about the dialogueless comic Apophenia 357.

This week I got back into the swing of things and I was able to get a comic up Monday, Wednesday and (will be) Friday. Taking Wednesday and Friday off last week helped because I should have taken the Wednesday and Friday off the week I put the cover page up. Each chapter moves in 10 series of three pages, but having the comic go up after the cover page kind of broke my cycle a bit, so I think I'll take the week between chapters off from now on.

Some interesting things, from my perspective have been happening so far in the second chapter with a lot of stuff not turning out the way I had planned (because, really, when the script for the comic is inspired by random spam text there's not a hell of a lot you can actually plan). I got to draw a couple of really cute panels thanks to the introduction of the Gunner. She's really grown on me. It actually makes me kind of nervous that her fate is determined by the random Spam texts. I really love the Lumberjack character. There are some really nice panels with him coming up. The wife of one of my artist friends who I see every morning at the Tims said he looked like Santa Claus. I designed the character that way on purpose because of his interaction with the Gunner and the Rogue I wanted him to be seen as a big, bear of a man. Someone who would protect you. Someone who would make you feel all warm and safe with a hug. He's kinda like Santa if Santa took better care of himself.

I really very fond of those two new characters and really hope the Spam protects them. I know sometimes I get really angry when a character I really like gets killed of by his creator (just ask my little brother what my reaction was like at the end of the movie "Serenity"). If anything bad happens to these two it's just going to give me yet another reason to hate Spam.

Incidently, it seems that "Waldorf and Statler" (the old man and the fat man from panel three, page two, chapter one) are making a re-appearance on page 16 of the second chapter. I just thought I'd tease you all with a little heads up about them. I still don't know what exactly they're up to but I'm begining to suspect their purpose is a little dark and sinister.

I'm working without a net now. I had 10 weeks worth of comics in the bag when I put the series up. It turns out I just can't work with that kind of a safety net. Without the immediacy of a deadline breathing down my neck I just get too damned lazy so I burned through my 10 week backlogue completely. There were a number of reason that contributed to this. I was a little under the weather for december. You know when you get that "I'm fighting something off" kind of cold. You're achey and tired and blah but it doesn't actually end up becoming a full blown cold just a kind of lingering malaise. That's what I had in December which kind of left me felling a little depressed, something I'm not really accustomed to.

The other thing that contributed to it was the page I titled "I used to be afriad". That page was kind of a brick wall for me. It was very sad and after I'd penciled it, its sadness combined with the general blah of my health to just really sap all my creative energy. I'm no Fred Gallagher. I'm not used to going around all weepy with my heart on my sleeve. So that page really impacted upon me I just didn't want to draw anymore of the story for awhile.

It's also becoming increasingly harder to "write" the script for Apophenia 357. I had foolishly thought, when I started the comic, that this would be a great cheat to writing a comic. Let the spam do it for me so I can concentrate on 9 panel narrative illustration in order to get ready for Polly. Oh little did I realize that trying to build a coherent continuity one page at a time out of random source matterial is a hell of a lot harder the longer the story gets than it is to just write the damned story yourself. Each page gives me great new ideas for where the story is going only to have those ideas completely trashed by the next spam. At least those of you lettering get to see the story 30 pages ahead (even more if you wait for more chapters to be finished before lettering your version).

For me the creative process behind "writing" Apophenia 357 is like building a house of cards on top of a game of Jenga. If the story goes on much longer I fear my brain is going to explode trying to cram square pegs into round holes (New wave... totally different head. Totally). I thought I was going to be ever so clever and save myself a bundle of work but instead I've caused the workload to grow at what seems like an exponential rate.

I suppose I could have just literally drawn what was in the spam block instead of trying to interpret it into an existing continuity, but I don't think the story would be terribly interesting if it was that chaotic. I could just say "fuck it" and start drawing my own story. It's not like anyone would know. Unfortunately I'm one of those guys who can't cheat even when I know 100% that I'd get away with it because it just gnaws away at me. I'd know I deviated from the experiment, fudged the results and the guilt would give me no rest.

Not knowing how long this story is going to go on or even what conclusion I am working towards is a little disconcerting. Part of me almost hopes I'll get a spam that contains the words "and the world exploded and everyone died". Although that kind of unsatisfactory ending would probably piss off a hell of a lot of people, myself included. No, I have to make sure when the end comes it's a proper ending, a satisfactory ending. An ending that makes it feel like a completed work. An ending completely NOT the ending of the last Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy book (yes, yes, I know he was planning one more final-and-this-time-I-mean-it book, but he died and now the series ends on that horrible note).

Incidently... for some reason, everytime I draw The Commander I'm always thinking in the back of my mind, "I'll betcha Honor would do her like she was a Sunday morning crossword puzzle."
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Re: Apophenia 357 Discussion Thread

Postby Squidflakes on Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:01 pm

Ghastly wrote:Incidently... for some reason, everytime I draw The Commander I'm always thinking in the back of my mind, "I'll betcha Honor would do her like she was a Sunday morning crossword puzzle."


That sir is an all night pussy pile I'd pay to see.
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Postby Ghastly on Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:15 am

Today's page, I think, came out very cute in the last panel.
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Postby Infinity-Iz-Blue on Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:37 am

Indeed. I'm already liking the little girl with the metal cat-ears, she's so adorably wierd.
"OH, I'VE SEEN THE INFINITE, IT'S NOTHING SPECIAL."
"Don't be daft! you can't see the infinite, it's... infinite!"
"I HAVE."
"Ok then, what did it look like?"
"IT'S BLUE."
"It's black."
"IT'S BLUE."
"It's black!"
"FROM THE OUTSIDE IT'S BLUE..."
Terry Pratchett, 'Soul Music'
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Postby R_Karandosh on Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:03 am

Ghastly, I was truly surprised when you continued into chapter two with the characters and situations from chapter one. I was guessing you would end or tie up the story threads and make each chapter self contained, but then again I don't suppose the spam is always that obliging. I imagine that continuing like this will be more difficult for you, but will be more intricate and enjoyable for us to play with. I have a question , a comment and a quandary.

When you're making your comic, do you have the characters and their back stories already in mind, or do you rethink them as the spam snakes the story around? Or possibly, do you just fake it and let us figure out if it makes sense. As an example: the Fiancee and the School Girl. Are they friends? Lovers? Sisters? The Lieutenant's co-wives? Did you know before the church scene? Do you have a guess, but it could change with your next look at the spam? Do you not know now and will not know until the Spam tells you of their future? I don't really want to know about them right here, I was just curious on your method.

I have been thinking on your "true Apophenia experience" of writing the dialogue as each page comes out. I'm afraid that it wouldn't work well for me. My story line would be full of "Ha, I was just kidding" and "Oops I thought you were someone else" sorts of gaffes. Or I would be afraid to write with any originality or conviction. "Ah ha! I will be doing something now!" might be the most definitive statement I'd use. It's going to be hard enough for anyone continuing onto chapter two. Heck, I've already written myself into a hole by identifying the blue woman as the Rouge's dream lover, when she now seems to be his mom. I've already figured a way to plot around that. (The message the Rouge reads is that they have finally found his dream girl who he met only once for a night of dull vanilla sex, and it turns out that she recently died leaving behind their bastard child, Rouge Junior. The funeral was attended by her three other sons, half brother bastards of three other main characters. The girl was dull, but quite a slut. It fits, right?) But as your story goes on, such splits from your "reality" will become greater and greater. Like a lie you have to cover up by making up more and larger lies, it will probably all come apart at some point. And to me, that's the gamble: that I can pull off my skewed version of your story without it becoming totally senseless. It's no fun if it falls apart on page 15 when I have the Mage telling Boy "Now I will kill you!" and then on page 16 "Um, no. On second thought I'll just cure you." It would force me to either write in a bland fashion to avoid pitfalls, or have endless backtracking on each new page. I'll give a deep bow of respect to anyone who does one in this fashion, but it looks like too much work for me, not on a page by page basis.

I honestly don't know if I am going to write a second chapter based on the same assumptions I put into my first one. (The Church of Drama, the Fiancee loving the Lieutenant, and Waldorf & Statler being evil incarnate.) I could just write chapter two on a different set of rules. (They're all characters from children's stories; Capt. Hook gave me the idea. Or do the whole story in rhyme, or "sung to the tune of ..." a la Mad magazine. Or only doing the dialogue of inanimate objects. Or any number of others.) As I said, it sounds like a fun challenge, but I would also like to explore other incarnations of these characters. I did write that first chapter with its wacky religion to explain away any odd behavior as "just trying to be dramatic for the gods" and I've already piloted my way around my first plot paradox so I'm well on my way to beginning. But I worry that no one will want to read more odd religious ranting and drama for the sake of drama. Drama for the sake of drama may be fun, but it's futility becomes obvious after a while. We'll see.
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Postby Jackalope on Sun Feb 12, 2006 1:07 am

I can see that it'll be harder for me to write dialogue this time around. The artwork for the first chapter had a lot of dynamic poses and movement that implied dialogue to me. The new chapter has more static poses or ones where the dialogue could be just about anything. The action doesn't telegraph any particular plot. That's going to make it a lot harder to write dialogue (I thought of a lot of mine as "cheating" because I wrote what I thought was the obvious storyline for the most part).

I'm viewing this like the collaborative storytelling exercises that are done round-robin. You just have to pick up where the last person left off, even if they just totally wrecked the brilliant idea you'd had. After watching one of those done with Terry Pratchett, Larry Niven and a couple other really glib authors as the participants, I realized the only way you can really screw up is to freeze. At least we're not having to improvse on the spot. (Though doing improv is also a skill that can be mastered by learning basic building blocks which are then assembled on the fly)

Ghastly: might it be easier if you think of yourself as being on the receiving end of a storytellers' round-robin? One even more insane than usual, but six or eight different authors would explain the sudden 180 degree turns of the plot...
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Postby Ghastly on Sun Feb 12, 2006 1:36 pm

R_Karandosh wrote:Ghastly, I was truly surprised when you continued into chapter two with the characters and situations from chapter one. I was guessing you would end or tie up the story threads and make each chapter self contained, but then again I don't suppose the spam is always that obliging. I imagine that continuing like this will be more difficult for you, but will be more intricate and enjoyable for us to play with. I have a question , a comment and a quandary.


Yeah I'm pretty much at the mercy of the spam. I was actually hoping to get into the story of the Elves a little more in Chapter two but they haven't come up yet at all everything seems to be centering around the Rogue and his crew so far and the Gunner and Lumberjack.

When you're making your comic, do you have the characters and their back stories already in mind, or do you rethink them as the spam snakes the story around? Or possibly, do you just fake it and let us figure out if it makes sense.


I have to be pretty fluid with it because the spam can suddenly introduce elements I hadn't thought of, but at the same time once I establish something in my own continuity it's pretty much set in stone meaning I have to interpret the incoming spam to fit into my existing continuity without relying on cliches like "it was all a dream" or "alternate reality" or stuff like that. This is something the people lettering it are going to have to do but where I'm doing it on a page by page basis they get the luxury of doing it on a chapter by chapter basis.

Did you know before the church scene?


I didn't even know they were going to be in the church scene until I read the spam that suggested they were there. I basically build everyone as personailty archtypes in my mind and then interpret characters in the spam that fit the archtypes I'm working with. Sometimes someone will be described who doesn't fit one of the archtypes I've already established in the story so I'll create a new character for them. Sometimes they'll disappear from the story (like the Schoolboy character who only showed up for one scene so I haven't made him a cast regular yet) and sometimes they'll reappear (like the Helmsman who really had no role in Chapter One but plays more in Chapter Two, or the Fat Man and the Old Man who seem to be some sort of Rosenkrantz and Gildenstern type of pair and so far make one brief appearance in the second chapter (which hasn't come up yet).

Do you not know now and will not know until the Spam tells you of their future? I don't really want to know about them right here, I was just curious on your method.


I've had and discarded dozens of story ideas. Basically I'm building this story with an eye to what's been done and not an eye to the future because plans are fluid. I had thought the Captain would have had a big fight scene when he was introduced but instead he just took one in the back a couple of spams later. I thought that was the end of him but then it turns out he somehow escaped a couple of spams later. So I really can't plan anything for these characters.

I have been thinking on your "true Apophenia experience" of writing the dialogue as each page comes out. I'm afraid that it wouldn't work well for me. My story line would be full of "Ha, I was just kidding" and "Oops I thought you were someone else" sorts of gaffes.


Yeah, that's why I don't except submissions until a chapter is finished, otherwise people wouldn't be able to build a coherent story. With the spam I'm free to interpret things so I don't have to restrict myself to drawing what is literally in the spam. The spam kind of suggestes and moves things but I interpret how it fits into the established continuity. Otherwise it would be nothing but a string of random chaotic drawings.

Because there's a continuity established, even without dialogue people get a sense of a story from Apophenia 357, trying to letter each page as it comes up would be nearly impossible, particularily with a serious storyline.


Heck, I've already written myself into a hole by identifying the blue woman as the Rouge's dream lover, when she now seems to be his mom.


Actually, it's not all that uncommon for men to have a bit of an Oedipal complex when it comes to choosing their future mates, seeking one who is like their mother. Mothers often become the idealized woman due to their nurturing role in early childhood. Our mothers are the first women we love unconditionally and the first women who love us unconditionally in return (at least for those of us who don't come from fucked up families). The Rogue may have simply had a plain, simple, nurturing mother and that is what he longs for now in a mate.

I've already figured a way to plot around that. (The message the Rouge reads is that they have finally found his dream girl who he met only once for a night of dull vanilla sex, and it turns out that she recently died leaving behind their bastard child, Rouge Junior. The funeral was attended by her three other sons, half brother bastards of three other main characters. The girl was dull, but quite a slut. It fits, right?)

That's certainly another way to go with it.


But I worry that no one will want to read more odd religious ranting and drama for the sake of drama. Drama for the sake of drama may be fun, but it's futility becomes obvious after a while. We'll see.


Actually that's one of the things that fascinates me with your story. Drama as dogma is pretty interesting and it seems like your world is on the brink of a religious reformation with a faction of splitters who believe they can exist even if there are no gods interested in them. The Mage certainly seems the beleive this. The Lieutenant seems to believe it is a possibility as well, although perhaps not as fanatically as the Mage. The Rogue seems to be the man on the verge of losing his faith. Following the tennants of his religion simply because that's the way it's always been done, but inside completely unsatisfied with it and longing for something else. The Schoolgirl and Fiancee seem to be devout in their belief, the Fiancee in particular seem to be seeking enrapturement. The Healer is looking for faith and the Guardian seems to be hoping faith won't come looking for her. It's a very interesting premise for a story and a pretty unique way of building "the world that is aware it is a story" plot. I find myself looking forward to seeing what lies in store for the characters you've brought to life. How will they each deal with the parts the gods have in store for them to play?
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Postby Ghastly on Sun Feb 12, 2006 1:46 pm

jackalope wrote:I can see that it'll be harder for me to write dialogue this time around. The artwork for the first chapter had a lot of dynamic poses and movement that implied dialogue to me. The new chapter has more static poses or ones where the dialogue could be just about anything. The action doesn't telegraph any particular plot. That's going to make it a lot harder to write dialogue (I thought of a lot of mine as "cheating" because I wrote what I thought was the obvious storyline for the most part).


Yeah the spams that have been coming up in the second chapter have been a lot more expositional in nature and less action. They seem to be bringing up a bit of backstory rather than advancing. The only real action so far was the scene where the Gunner fires the message onto the airship and right now we're at the emergency crash landing of the airship as the engines start to go kablooey. The pages I'm penciling now (if you don't mind the minor spoilers) seems to be laying down the guidelines for some sort of quest that will bring the three major story threads together, the story of the Mage and his people, the story of the Rogue and his people, and the story of the Elves. It'll be neat to see if it all gels together. The problem is I never really know for sure and two spams later things end up spinning off in some direction I hadn't even thought of.

Ghastly: might it be easier if you think of yourself as being on the receiving end of a storytellers' round-robin? One even more insane than usual, but six or eight different authors would explain the sudden 180 degree turns of the plot...


I do sometimes get that "appearently I'm now the editor for Thieve's World" kind of feeling working on this project. I have to say even though things didn't work out exactly the way I had imagined they would when I started the project I'm really glad I went with this experiment. It's been very interesting trying to "write" a story this way and it's been really interesting reading different people's interpretations of the story. I'm quite pleased with the results so far.
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Postby Queenhank on Sun Feb 12, 2006 4:56 pm

Would it be at all possible to see an example of the Spam you've used, Ghastly? I'm interested in seeing just what it is you have to work with.
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Postby Ghastly on Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:28 pm

queenhank wrote:Would it be at all possible to see an example of the Spam you've used, Ghastly? I'm interested in seeing just what it is you have to work with.


Here's a spam I haven't used yet so you can see an example of what I'm working with.

who has become blind does not regain his sight; the man who has become a flying rumour that the Misses Netting all have stood Miss Shepherd had a good deal to do with that part; being entirely in the India Oh, very well, Peter said, a little nettled. Perhaps Tinker given me. All the sensitive feelings it wounded so cruelly, all


As for spams I have used, those I won't be sharing.
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Postby Queenhank on Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:32 pm

Wow, that must be rather difficult to form into a comic. A bit more difficult than the script I generated, even.
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Postby Ghastly on Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:41 pm

Today's comic is up. I like the first panel with the airship going down and the panel with the Mechanic.
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Postby Jackalope on Mon Feb 13, 2006 1:34 am

I see the Mechanic is going to be another victim of Subsiding Neckline Syndrome. The more stressful/sweaty a situation, the lower the neckline goes.

And the Helmsman gets buffer every time you draw him. The panel with the Fiancee is just begging to be used for a smart-ass meme...
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Postby Ghastly on Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:50 am

He's doing the "Crash landing? Now it's the Helmsman's time to shine" chest puffing.
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Postby Squidflakes on Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:32 pm

Hey Unka G, in the lyrics to "Ivory Towers" how do you spell Nocturnus Chasma? or is that how you spell it?
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Postby Ghastly on Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:53 pm

squidflakes wrote:Hey Unka G, in the lyrics to "Ivory Towers" how do you spell Nocturnus Chasma? or is that how you spell it?


According to Google that is indeed the correct spelling. Of course the lyrics for that song have long since been changed. :lol:
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Postby Squidflakes on Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:14 pm

Ghastly wrote:
squidflakes wrote:Hey Unka G, in the lyrics to "Ivory Towers" how do you spell Nocturnus Chasma? or is that how you spell it?


According to Google that is indeed the correct spelling. Of course the lyrics for that song have long since been changed. :lol:


Damn you artists and your.. you know, that thing you do. Ahh well, its too late now ;)
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Postby Ghastly on Thu Feb 23, 2006 9:45 pm

New page up. I like the way the last panel with the silhouet against the sunset came out. I like the first panel too.
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Postby Ghastly on Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:55 am

Apophenia 357 is going to be on hiatus until next wednesday as I've been too busy to do any work on it this week.

In other news we will likely be having our CD release party on March 31st.
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Postby Squidflakes on Wed Mar 01, 2006 3:01 pm

Ghastly wrote:Apophenia 357 is going to be on hiatus until next wednesday as I've been too busy to do any work on it this week.

In other news we will likely be having our CD release party on March 31st.


HOT DAMN!

I'm guessing that means we can get our hot little hands on the CD sometime this year? My pants are wet with the suggestion.
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