American Suckage

[Major Maxillary]

you completely ignored the quotations, didn't you?

tell me, is the government expecting to get reimbersed for the welfare money? no. it's given out. people don't have to work for it. it's "free." the only time they'll come after you is when you get out of it, like Squidflakes described.

It's one thing to have a safety net for when you fall off the walkway, it's something else entirely to simply use the net instead of the walkway. frankly, if you even need a net for the walkway you should really make the walkway wider, maybe put in some handrails, but i digress.

the problem at hand is that we're outsoourcing jobs like crazy, 80% of all consumer goods in the US are imported, and much of the low paying labour is given to immigrants willing to work twice as much for half the pay.

[Squidflakes]

Major,

Money is never free. Someone, somewhere has given that money to the government. Personally, I've paid back all of my welfare and unemployment monies over the years through the various taxes the government levies on goods, services, my income, the value of my home, my yearly capital gains, ect.

[Toawa]

It's one thing to have a safety net for when you fall off the walkway, it's something else entirely to simply use the net instead of the walkway. frankly, if you even need a net for the walkway you should really make the walkway wider, maybe put in some handrails, but i digress.

And what if the walkway is greased?

Also, how far along the net shall someone have to walk before we declare them to be "lazy freeloading bastards who deserve what they're getting."

The fact is that in 99.9999% of those cases, you aren't going to know all the facts. (With a .0001% margin of error) And without knowing all the facts, how can you pass a moral judgement on those people, because that's what you're doing.

Not that that ever stops us, of course. And often, when we find out that we were wrong, we can try to make amends for our actions stemming from that judgement.

(This is why I, in principle, oppose the death penalty. The fact is that we can't know all the circumstances that led to a given crime, and without knowing all of those circumstances, how do we know what a just punishment is? It's for that reason that I mentally cringe when I hear people complaining about pesky things like the 4th, 5th, and especially 8th amendments, and with the endless parade of murdering child-molestors of the month for the last several years (or so it seems) as seen on TV... Ugh.

Not that I oppose the death penalty in all cases; I am not going to leave myself open to attacks of "What about person X from history, who killed thousands of people with their bare hands?" About the only time I think I could justify it is in cases where the person, by their actions, have shown themselves too dangerous to live. However, the bar would still be pretty high.)

the problem at hand is that we're outsoourcing jobs like crazy

Which isn't a problem as long as we're getting new jobs for our people. The Chinese and Indians and Phillipinos and Mexicans and (insert endless list) have as much a right to jobs as we do.

80% of all consumer goods in the US are imported

Which wouldn't be a problem if we'd export our goods in equal amounts. Today I heard that Boeing has signed a contract to export 70 planes to China, valued at a ~6 billion (I think, and of course, that doesn't take into consideration imported materials.). That helps. Now, if we could balance that out a bit...

and much of the low paying labour is given to immigrants willing to work twice as much for half the pay.

Actually, I believe you meant to say illegal immigrants, and to my mind, the biggest problem here is that it goes hand in hand with absolutely mind-boggling levels of tax fraud. We're providing medicare and welfare dollars, police dollars, insurance dollars, etc. to them, and getting no taxes in return. If they'd pay their taxes, the situation would be much improved.

(Though I don't blame them entirely; most of the blame goes to the businesses that hire them, since they're the ones that are supposed to be witholding. Except for the ones who defraud the IRS out of refund checks, which many of them do. That, I have a problem with.)

If what I just said sounds crazy, trust me, it won't after you take that macroeconomics course. When you can correctly finish this sentence:

Money Is _______

You will have started to grasp these concepts.

[Honor]

The fact is that in 99.9999% of those cases, you aren't going to know all the facts.

And that's our Max, in a nutshell.

[Honor]

tell me, is the government expecting to get reimbersed for the welfare money?

Of course it is. But the word's not "reimbursed" sparky, it's "compensated".

Welfare isn't a gift or a loan... It's an expenditure. It's value for value. Quid Pro Quo.

The mere fact that some people might not be smart enough or well enough educated to understand that society as a whole, and thus every person in it, receives better than fair value for this expenditure doesn't make it any less so.

Furthermore, as has already been explained more than once, it's not a number of unrelated expenditures. It's one expenditure over-all. It's incorrect to say the concept fails because some few people abuse it. You can't intelligently say welfare is a bad deal overall because some of the dollars get spent in ways we disapprove of anymore than you can say a new car is a bad value because you don't like the color of the valve-stem covers.

It's one thing to have a safety net for when you fall off the walkway, it's something else entirely to simply use the net instead of the walkway. frankly, if you even need a net for the walkway you should really make the walkway wider, maybe put in some handrails, but i digress.

I've read Timothy Leary articles that make more logical sense than this analogy, but I digress.

the problem at hand is that we're outsoourcing jobs like crazy, 80% of all consumer goods in the US are imported, and much of the low paying labour is given to immigrants willing to work twice as much for half the pay.

(Edit: Could give a reference for this 80% figure? I can't find a direct coroborating source at first glance... But I didn't look too very hard.)

And who's fault is any of this, except the American consumer...? Well, it's really not anybodys "fault"... It's just economics. But to support the illustration:

If the American worker would work for three dollars an hour (that's three dollars including employer taxes, one-fifty on payroll, a dollar five after taxes) then those jobs wouldn't be shifting over-seas... On the other hand, if the American consumer didn't mind paying three times as much for a product, less goods would be imported.

And what about those darned illegals? If the republican business owner would be willing to pay his fair share of taxes and payroll, the illegal immigrants could become legal immegrants, and learn to pay taxes like the rest of us... Trust me, they'd effing jump at the chance.

So why is it so difficult to get legal? Because (mostly) republican businesses and wealthy private citizens make and save money by hiring illegals... If the illegals were legals, they'd be more difficult to bully and blackmail, and you'd have to pay them minimum wage and pay taxes on that wage... Horrors! So they use political influence to keep immigration tight, mostly by lying to the American middle class about how those darned immigrants are going to take their jobs. Luckily, as the gentleman in the top-hat said, Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.

[Major Maxillary]

Welfare isn't a gift or a loan... It's an expenditure. It's value for value. Quid Pro Quo.

I fail to see the value. how does having 5,760,476 living off the government benefit the country as a whole?

The mere fact that some people might not be smart enough or well enough educated to understand that society as a whole, and thus every person in it, receives better than fair value for this expenditure doesn't make it any less so.

How?

Furthermore, as has already been explained more than once, it's not a number of unrelated expenditures. It's one expenditure over-all. It's incorrect to say the concept fails because some few people abuse it.

I'm not saying that. i'm saying that it should be refined.

You can't intelligently say welfare is a bad deal overall because some of the dollars get spent in ways we disapprove of anymore than you can say a new car is a bad value because you don't like the color of the valve-stem covers.

i don't.

It's one thing to have a safety net for when you fall off the walkway, it's something else entirely to simply use the net instead of the walkway. frankly, if you even need a net for the walkway you should really make the walkway wider, maybe put in some handrails, but i digress.

I've read Timothy Leary articles that make more logical sense than this analogy, but I digress.

That's because a) i suck with analogies, and 2) i wasn't even trying by the end of it.

the problem at hand is that we're outsoourcing jobs like crazy, 80% of all consumer goods in the US are imported, and much of the low paying labour is given to immigrants willing to work twice as much for half the pay.

And who's fault is any of this, except the American consumer...? Well, it's really not anybodys "fault"... It's just economics. But to support the illustration:

If the American worker would work for three dollars an hour (that's three dollars including employer taxes, one-fifty on payroll, a dollar five after taxes) then those jobs wouldn't be shifting over-seas... On the other hand, if the American consumer didn't mind paying three times as much for a product, less goods would be imported.

And what about those darned illegals? If the republican business owner would be willing to pay his fair share of taxes and payroll, the illegal immigrants could become legal immegrants, and learn to pay taxes like the rest of us... Trust me, they'd effing jump at the chance.

So why is it so difficult to get legal? Because (mostly) republican businesses and wealthy private citizens make and save money by hiring illegals... If the illegals were legals, they'd be more difficult to bully and blackmail, and you'd have to pay them minimum wage and pay taxes on that wage... Horrors! So they use political influence to keep immigration tight, mostly by lying to the American middle class about how those darned immigrants are going to take their jobs. Luckily, as the gentleman in the top-hat said, Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.

I'm going to be honest sand say that i only glanced over that little rant.

one time i said in a conversation about migrant workers that "i wish they could become citizens so they'd get payed what they're worth."

The person i was talking to called me a racist. because i wanted people to be payed what they're worth. right.

Just because i see a problem with the current system and don't have a comprehensive solution doesn't mean i'm the typical "omg dem beaner's 'r takin' 'r jobs an' more steryotypical redneck jargon"

I feel we should keep our industry here in the United States. out cars should be produced here, our tech support should be located in US cities, and most of our our food should be produced in American farms. that's simply because we have a serious import dependence, and i feel that that's a liability. call me paranoind, because i am.

I feel anyone should be allowed to work and reap the same pay, and should be subject to the same benefits and income tax.

I feel people who want to live in America should be allowed to live in America.

I know that The welfare system in it's current state is flawed, and inefficient. I say i know because i've had three seperate benefit cards since moving to New york. the first had my name and my grandfather's Date of birth(God only knows how that happened), the second had my mother's name and my social security number, they only got it right after pestering them enough. i want the people who need help get it, and the people who just need a chance to make something of themselves get that. the two groups are not the same, and they shouldn't be lumped under the same roof. one group can't get up, the other can with the propper motivation.


Yeah, That's right, actually i want things to be improved and efficient, i'm a regular ignorant, bigoted, hypocritical facist, aren't i.

I know damn well that nothing is free. hense the fucking quotations. it's a fugure of speech.

you people take this shit to seriousley. yeah, i know, "it's important, it affects our daly lives, think of teh childrenz!" whatever. just because it's important is no reason to be all Didantic. nothing is too important or serious to be made fun of.

[Toawa]

Welfare isn't a gift or a loan... It's an expenditure. It's value for value. Quid Pro Quo.

I fail to see the value. how does having 5,760,476 living off the government benefit the country as a whole?

Because it keeps an extra 5,760,476 people alive.

Because it's a lot cheaper than having an extra 5,760,476 people in prison, because they they don't have to choose stealing over starving.

Because someday you might be #5,760,477. You might think, "I'd die before I went on welfare." So did I; I'm not so sure now. At some point, you at least learn enough to know, that Unless it's happened to you before, you never truely know what you'll do when you're faced with a situation. It took me a few tries (and led to a few interesting stories), but I think I've learned that. At least, I hope so.

[Gengar003]

It's one thing to have a safety net for when you fall off the walkway, it's something else entirely to simply use the net instead of the walkway. frankly, if you even need a net for the walkway you should really make the walkway wider, maybe put in some handrails, but i digress.

I've read Timothy Leary articles that make more logical sense than this analogy, but I digress.

Aww, I liked his analogy...

[Major Maxillary]

Welfare isn't a gift or a loan... It's an expenditure. It's value for value. Quid Pro Quo.

I fail to see the value. how does having 5,760,476 living off the government benefit the country as a whole?

Because it keeps an extra 5,760,476 people alive.

Because it's a lot cheaper than having an extra 5,760,476 people in prison, because they they don't have to choose stealing over starving.

Because someday you might be #5,760,477. You might think, "I'd die before I went on welfare." So did I; I'm not so sure now. At some point, you at least learn enough to know, that Unless it's happened to you before, you never truely know what you'll do when you're faced with a situation. It took me a few tries (and led to a few interesting stories), but I think I've learned that. At least, I hope so.

You're oversimplifying. not all of those 5,760,476 people are capable of working, many are, but not all of them. many are capable of work but haven't the opprotunity to make themselves useful, and some are just flat-out lazy fucks. the former need welfare, the latter needs a swift kick in the 'nads. the ones who only need an opprotunity need to be given that opprotunity.

you know what, i've been drifting in and out of poverty for my entire life. I've never been hungry, and i'ver never been in a position where it was the rent or food. how could this have been acheived? simple, my mother knows how to manage resources, and so do i. hell, right now, i only have enough money to get my braces off. and that's after paying for the Internet, Digital Cable, Electricity, water and head, rent, ect. ect. ect. i've fucking been on welfare. when i was 14. it was the only way to ive because my mother is a disable veteran and her boyfriend at the time was a lazy fuck. he actually lived of her welfare and mine. sometimes you find your options limited despite the best of your abilities.

stop acting like i'm a bad-guy. disagreeing with the way something is executed doesn't mean i'm against it.

[Gengar003]

disagreeing with the way something is executed doesn't mean i'm against it.

*snerk*

Yeah, but you could have worded it better

the former need welfare, the latter needs a swift kick in the 'nads. the ones who only need an opprotunity need to be given that opprotunity.

Yeah, the trick is seperating them and giving them what they "need." Institutions with lots of money occaisonally suffer from the "just throw money at it 'till it's fixed" syndrome. [/mild sarcasm]

[Honor]

Ok... Maybe if I ask first thing, I'll have a better chance at it? May I have a source on the 5,760,476 number and the 80% imported goods?

Still... Even if 5,760,476 is exactly the right number... 1.9% of our population on welfare isn't bad by any reasonable standard.

...stop acting like i'm a bad-guy. disagreeing with the way something is executed doesn't mean i'm against it.

The problem isn't in you disagreeing with the way it's run. The problem is that nothing you said on the subject up til tonight, and only about a quarter of what youve said on the subject tonight bore any resemblance to "I think it should be run better".

You said thigs like:

people learn that they don't have to work for their money, and they start leeeching off the welfare state.

What I observe is a bunch of able people living off the taxpayers, giving nothing back.

I fail to see the value.

tell me, is the government expecting to get reimbersed for the welfare money?

i know that the solution doesn't lie in "free money."

See... None of that sounds like "I think welfare is a good and needed concept, but it's being wholly mismanaged right now." In fact, most all of it sounds like "Welfare is a drain on our economy, a bad idea overall, and it shouldn't be tolerated."

Oh, and... not for nothing, but you also said:

Well, as Sir Winston Churchill once said, "If you aren't a liberal by the time you're nineteen, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by thirty, you have no brain."

Actually, he said "Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has no heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains." ...And, as a matter of curiosity, that wasn't the first time he'd been so head-up-his-arse wrong that he could lick his own duodenum, either.

[Swordsman3003]

Look, welfare is managed about as good as anything the government is doing right now. Which is basically shit.

Here is something to look into: The ten points from Marx's communist manifesto:

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.

If you look closely, we meet some of these standards, at least in part. Something to think about, that's all.

[SpasticSage]

Here is something to look into: The ten points from Marx's communist manifesto:

-snip-

If you look closely, we meet some of these standards, at least in part. Something to think about, that's all.

Though this is a bit off-topic, I thought I should say something.

We should - at least loosely - meet couple of these standards.

There are undoubtedly problems with communism. Especially in the way in which it has been executed in certain portions of the world. This does not mean that we should throw out every tenet of the underlying theory as anathema.

Sure, we spent decades in a cold war with other large nations that subscribed to this doctrine. And, sure, a big one decided to switch away from communism because it wasn't working out. It doesn't mean they were doing everything completely wrong.

Rather, we can look at what worked well, and what didn't work well in hindsight. We can combine aspects of communism with aspects that work well from the world's other economic systems (e.g. capitalism).

I, for one, think that free education for all is an excellent idea (for reasons already stated in this thread). I also think that agricultural advances have made point 9 rather irrelevant today - you don't need nearly as many people to run a farm today as you did when Marx lived, though the extreme position of mega-cities has enough problems to look carefully at that as well. These are just examples of how it's reasonable to discuss some of the points of Marxism - not something I want to have a debate on.

Does this make me a communist? Yeah, sure, at least partly. As long as I can also be part capitalist, part liberal, part conservative .... etc etc etc.

[Swordsman3003]

Well, I just wanted to bring it up, considering welfare is a socialist program after all.

[Honor]

Well, I just wanted to bring it up, considering welfare is a socialist program after all.

*facepalm!*

Welfare is not a "socialist" program...!

Gawd, I wish people would learn what the hell socialism (and, for that matter, communism, fascism, totalitarianism, dictatorship, democracy, republicanism, conservativism, libertarianism, and liberalism) actually means before they go tossing the word around like a slab of wet toilet paper, seeing what they can make it stick to.

[Gengar003]

*TPs Honor and Swordsman*

Nyahahahahaha.

[Honor]

That was completely uncalled for, considering toilet paper is a socialist invention, after all.

[Swordsman3003]

Ok, you are right. It seems I never truly understood the definition of socialism. Hey, has anyone else noticed that wikipedia is often the first hit that google returns? Anyways, thanks for the toilet paper.

[Gengar003]

^_^ You're welcome. It's second-hand, though, it's all the government would buy me.

[Major Maxillary]

We should - at least loosely - meet couple of these standards.

bullshit.