Small World...

[Thai_shoot]

Owned 8)

[Squidflakes]

naaa, she knows I rant out of love

Infinity on the other hand is one of my l33t cadre of highly trained squid suit commandos, and he knows that when I say "I'll smash you in the bollocks I will" I really mean "I MIGHT smash you in the bollocks, but I'd rather have a pint."

[Bustertheclown]

Is it just me, or does that poor pink-haired girl look slightly afeared for her life?

And people who have trouble imagining fat bastard Texans in loud shirts with cameras probably aren't continentally connected to those fat Texan bastards.

[WhatMeWorry?]

the stereotypical fat-bastard texan with a loud shirt and a camera (which, while I'm on the subject, I can't possibly imagine actually existing) who takes pictures of some stupid 500 year old cottage in Yorkshire which is about to pulled down anyway

He and his cousins do exist all over this country, and sometimes, they regretibly become our ambassadors. There are however, many REAL travelers here. Those of us who like to eat, drink and party with the locals, like the locals wherever we go. Not just stomp all over your old and revered landmarks.

And sometimes they get to be president. Twice, dammit! Grrrrrrrr.....

[Thai_shoot]

too true.

[Lictor]

If anyones interested here is a link to the story of the cracking of the early enigmas by the Poles.

From memory:
After the addition of the two extra wheels for the operator to choose from efforts at Bletchley were slow going but They did get to a point where they were able to read about two thirds of enigma with help from coroborating information from other sources until they were gifted a full set of code books and a machine from a crippled u-boat (U-101 I think. Not U-571). This allowed them to read all of the messages and find out how it worked for a while. Hower this was lost when the Germans (fearing thier codes were being broken) added a fourth cipher wheel into the machine. This set things back almost to square one and enigma remained partially uncracked till the end of the war.

That's from memory but I think it is fairly accurate.

[Thai_shoot]

Though the enigma machine being figured out by the poles was certainly an important turning point in WWII...polish people - code breaking...there has to be a joke in there somewhere

No real disrespect meant

[Fire Storm]

I think that WWII was won by the Allies BECAUSE of the Americans, not BY the Americans (at least in Europe. I am not too familiar with the operations in the pacific theater).

When Great Britan had it's supplies cut off by the Germans, we supplied them.

Also, I think we have to thank Hitler for the Allies winning WWII. Thanks to many bad decisions (Russia being the big one, not using some of this tech (trans Atlantic bomber, rockets, jet power, etc)), Hitler gave the allies the edge needed to win the war. From what I can gather, we were damn close to losing that war.

Here's a question: Let's say Hitler didn't fuck up with Russia, so Russia never got involved. Could Hitler have successfully invaded UK or bombed it into submission?

Also, expanding on that, what then? What would the US have done? Peace treaty (Man... we're losing this war! Wanna call a truce?)? Keep going (gotta free them all!)? Germany attempting to invade the US (One that would have the lowest chance of success, IMHO)?

If the Pacific theater went on as it did, I think that our first use of nuclear weapons would have been on Berlin (or some other German city).

[Happypeepeehead]

I say the Allies won because of the Italian armed forces.

[Squidflakes]

I say the Allies won because of the Italian armed forces.

Ahh, the most inaccurate and poorly manufactured guns of the war

[Happypeepeehead]

Or the trouble they have battling pre industrial nations without having Germany bailing them out.

[WhatMeWorry?]

I think that WWII was won by the Allies BECAUSE of the Americans, not BY the Americans (at least in Europe. I am not too familiar with the operations in the pacific theater).

When Great Britan had it's supplies cut off by the Germans, we supplied them.

Also, I think we have to thank Hitler for the Allies winning WWII. Thanks to many bad decisions (Russia being the big one, not using some of this tech (trans Atlantic bomber, rockets, jet power, etc)), Hitler gave the allies the edge needed to win the war. From what I can gather, we were damn close to losing that war.

Here's a question: Let's say Hitler didn't fuck up with Russia, so Russia never got involved. Could Hitler have successfully invaded UK or bombed it into submission?

Also, expanding on that, what then? What would the US have done? Peace treaty (Man... we're losing this war! Wanna call a truce?)? Keep going (gotta free them all!)? Germany attempting to invade the US (One that would have the lowest chance of success, IMHO)?

If the Pacific theater went on as it did, I think that our first use of nuclear weapons would have been on Berlin (or some other German city).

Hitler's biggest mistake by far was crossing the Russians, which unfortunately for him became necessary if he wanted to keep the alliance with the Japanese (both the Japanese and the Soviets told Germany either them or us, not both). Hitler ended up betting on the idealism of the Japanese rather than the sheer numbers and mass of the Soviets (not to mention their great defensive advantages), the Japanese would have made excellent allies had not the price of their alliance meant taking on the Soviets.

In regards to the Americans, they had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the war, not to mention lied to continuously by their president at the time (Roosevelt). The whole american involvement was always a tenuous possibility at best until Pearl Harbor, which was instigated by a ultimatum style of embargo by Roosevelt with the Japanese. Roosevelt very artfully played the Japanese into a corner by which they would either have to attack the US or give up their Pacific domination plans.

Had Hitler chosen the Soviets over the Japanese and had the Americans ended up staying out of it I do believe that Hitler would have been successful in his campaign of finally restoring the Roman Empire boundaries for Germany. I don't believe it would have been the end of the world, however. Now bear with me while you all get your flame attacks ready...

Germany would have forcefully united Europe under its banner, much like the soviets did with eastern europe. We would have had a facist style EU, decades ahead of its time. Sooner or later the weight of facism would come crumbling down much faster than the socialist communism did in the USSR, and the EU would have been born from that, my guess is that by now it'd be a good 2 or 3 decades ahead of where it is now.

The biggest loser would have been the US, in that they would have never emerged as the superpower that they did, they would have stayed as Canada is now, minding their own business and keeping to their own part of the world. It wouldn't have holdings all over the world and the american people would have never allowed rampant spending on defense for decades upon decades. Someone else would have come up with the bomb (likely Germany) and the US nuclear power would be as a nuclear power manufacturer and would be now flexing financial and industrial muscle instead of military belligerance and political arrogance.

Can't say I really know which scenario would be worse really...

[Happypeepeehead]

Regardless, the ideologies clash horrendously. Capitlist Nazis Germany would never want as big an alliance with the Soviet Union. But, they built their army up there to get around the armistice ruling and I'm still not sure how that was worked out.

[Irish Witch]

I still think and say and nobody can contradict me on it that the Enigma Machine was the key to the breakdown. Without it it would have been near impossible for the war to have finished.
The only reasons I get grumpy about the war Americans say they won the war is because of the Americans being the last to join. They held out for over five years wasnt it?? Something like that! The war was won by a concerted effort and all America did was add to the final numbers involved in the conflict.
I bow to the fact that Americans were the best at retrieving downed planes - although many Europeans say it was the Chinese that America mainly fought against and that the Russians provided most of the direct combat against the Germans.

but if it were not for us you and the rest of Europe would be speaking German

I think it's plane wrong to say that any one particular
country won the war or that it was because of them that we aren't all German when there were so many countries involved and so many lives were lost. To me that's just pompus arrogance.

There were no winners.
Only losers,
and a cease fighting.


On a lighter note:

Owned

naaa, she knows I rant out of love

Your right, I knwo you rant out of love, and more to the point, I dont mind if I'm owned...

[Irish Witch]

Gaelic is almost dead, and only influences Lorenna McKennet albums and SCA members with too much time on their hands.

Trust me when I say it's nowhere near as dead as you think. Most people going to Ireland only really visit Dublin etc and they have been made very british. Country Ireland is still extremely traditional and are making every effort to keep Gaelic as an active language...

And I say this to you... The Gaelic roots in the English language aren't actually the words themselves, it's the pronounciations.

ch - as in chris is Irish
ie - as in recieve is Irish
sh - sound was derived originally from the Gaelic S.

The Irish people made up a large part of 'lower-class' england and their way of pronouncing things has had a big influence on many of the English base words.
The Norse influences mainly came from down wales where (for a time) there was a colony of norse settlers. The norse did raid and influence Ireland and scottland but not so heavily. And Yes - I know Norse == Germanic but the Alphabet is Arabic which was brought to us via the romans!

ie - There's a lot of stuff mixed up in all this!

[Infinity-Iz-Blue]

Well, now that that's all straightened out (christ almighty, next time I'll just nod and say I did ) Let's get on with the conversation. I... wait, is there actually on solid topic now?

[WhatMeWorry?]

although many Europeans say it was the Chinese that America mainly fought against and that the Russians provided most of the direct combat against the Germans.

??????!?!?! Oh, wait, you meant to say Japanese, not Chinese. lol Took me a little bit there. The Chinese were staunch allies of the US against the Japanese (something about the Rape of Nanking and the Chinese Holocaust...), in fact it is the nature of a split government in China at the time of the Japanese invasion and a split US support that led to the current China-Tawain problem.

I think it's plane wrong to say that any one particular
country won the war or that it was because of them that we aren't all German when there were so many countries involved and so many lives were lost. To me that's just pompus arrogance.

To that I whole-heartedly agree. The more I learn about WW2 from all the various POV's the more I realize how narrow the victory was.

I would state as fact that had but one of the Allied countries been lacking in resolve or presence the victory would have been Germany and Japan's. This includes the efforts of the UK united militaries (which includes the Aussies), the French Resistance, the US, China, the Pac Rim countries, etc, etc, etc, etc.

So my sentiment is that no country can claim that they single-handedly won the war, but that every country involved can claim victory was dependent on their involvement, for that is true.

Well, now that that's all straightened out (christ almighty, next time I'll just nod and say I did ) Let's get on with the conversation. I... wait, is there actually on solid topic now?

LOL, considering that the original topic was "Oh kewl, Ghastly, you live where I used to.", I'd say this *is* the solid topic...

[Lictor]

I think that WWII was won by the Allies BECAUSE of the Americans, not BY the Americans (at least in Europe. I am not too familiar with the operations in the pacific theater).

When Great Britan had it's supplies cut off by the Germans, we supplied them.

Actually when Britain could not afford supplies/equipment/munitions the Americans supplied them. Although diminished they were never cut off fully.

Also, I think we have to thank Hitler for the Allies winning WWII. Thanks to many bad decisions (Russia being the big one, not using some of this tech (trans Atlantic bomber, rockets, jet power, etc)), Hitler gave the allies the edge needed to win the war. From what I can gather, we were damn close to losing that war.

The de Haviland Vampire F3 prototype flew successfully in late 1943 the time the ME-262 was put into mass production. The F3 being a more reliable plane probably would have made a faster appearance if the 262 had shown in number but I guess we'll never know. As for bad descisions,yes. Hitler did not believe in long range bombers.

Here's a question: Let's say Hitler didn't fuck up with Russia, so Russia never got involved. Could Hitler have successfully invaded UK or bombed it into submission?

The RAF had won air superiority over Britain and the channel long before the Russians ever entered the equasion. Hitler had also abandonned plans to invade Britain at this point.

Also, expanding on that, what then? What would the US have done? Peace treaty (Man... we're losing this war! Wanna call a truce?)? Keep going (gotta free them all!)? Germany attempting to invade the US (One that would have the lowest chance of success, IMHO)?

It was Hitler declaring war on America that finally dragged America into the European theatre. Also the U-boats inflicted as bad losses if not worse losses on the Atlantic fleet as the Japanese did on the Pacific fleet. Link. Invasion would have been possible but success could only be guessed at. If they fucked up the invasion plan like they did in Russia then a definate failure would have resulted.

If the Pacific theater went on as it did, I think that our first use of nuclear weapons would have been on Berlin (or some other German city).

Unnecessary the RAF fire bombing of Dresden and Hamburg caused far more casualties than occured at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[Squidflakes]

As did the firebombings on Japan cause more casualties and property damage than both nuclear weapons.

Another thing that a lot of people don't realize is that bombing Japan with fire was an incredibly effective psychological weapon. The same racial genetic traits that prevent the Japanese from becoming alcoholics also prevent them from healing burns properly.

[Jay042]

As for the Enigma machine, I recall that Allan Turing was a major contributor to breaking the Enigma code. If I recall several Enigmas were captured during the war (they were listed before the credits of U-571)