Suddenly, SinFest = Huge Piles of Fail.

[PopeMac]

Cognitively speaking, it is extremely difficult for someone to hold the opinion that "I'll believe that God exists and is looking out for us, and someone else can not hold that belief, and that will be that", because if they truly believed that beliefs made no difference whatsoever, they wouldn't even bother with their own.

Not caring what other people believe is not the same as not believing that beliefs matter. My own personal beliefs are important to me; however, these beliefs are, in some ways, unique to me, and I am not so arrogant as to assume that I am the only person in the world who is right. I feel that people should decide for themselves what to believe; believing what someone else tells you just because it's easier than thinking about it yourself leads to all kinds of problems.

[Kittyboymuffin]

I still like whoever made the quote someone made that's something like, "Nothing facilitates questioning the existence of God like a serious examination of the Bibble."

[Spiral Zer0]

but if i didn't have faith that there was a higher power to judge me when I died I might have commited suicide, injured my body in a hedonistic fashion, taken up heavy drug use and other sorts of things.

This makes no sense whatso ever. I was held back from sucide Because i knew that if I did there would be nothing after. Granted I never was really resolved to commit suicide and I only thought about it during my idoitic teenage years. If someone believes that there is a wonderfull existance after this why wouldnt you want to see it. I know that many denomiations tell you sucide sends you to a worse place but some dont.

well I wasn't being completely serious with the comment, I'm basically trying to point out that for some faith keeps them moving.

some of the happiest people I know are people who exercize thier faith regularly, I've never bumped into an athiest that showed joy in the same way as others that purely belive that there is something out there greater than themselves in this world and that we're not alone. we have some loving element that exsists within us and everrthing around us making sure that we'll be treated decently when everything is said and done.

again though, you don't have to agree with me, that's why I'm strickly refering to it as an opinion and nothing more.

[Honor]

...I feel that people should decide for themselves what to believe; believing what someone else tells you just because it's easier than thinking about it yourself leads to all kinds of problems.

Holy fragrant elf crap... Why is it "people of faith" seem to have such profound difficulty with the meaning of the word "believe"? It's not possible to choose what you believe. It's not possible to "decide" what you believe. Belief is an involuntary state... The evidence comes in, the "facts" and sources are considered and weighed, and the mind either grants them credence or not.

jeszus batshit. where is that poll...?

I still like whoever made the quote someone made that's something like, "Nothing facilitates questioning the existence of God like a serious examination of the Bibble."

I think I've said something like that here... Whether the phraseology was original or not, the sentiment wasn't... That the bible itself is perhaps the best argument against a belief in the christian god is perhaps one of the most common and powerful indictments of the "faith".

some of the happiest people I know are people who exercize thier faith regularly, I've never bumped into an athiest that showed joy in the same way as others that purely belive that there is something out there greater than themselves in this world and that we're not alone. we have some loving element that exsists within us and everrthing around us making sure that we'll be treated decently when everything is said and done.

Perhaps the most famous indictment of this argument comes in the form on another poignant quote:

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."

Why stop there, though? The specific terms you've used allow us to make much more pointed and equally valid observations.

Idiots are typically and statistically much "happier" than are people of considerable intelligence. The grossly ignorant are typically happier, in a superficial sense, than those possessed of greater education. Moving to the archaic medical definition of "idiocy", we find people who are typically happier yet.

Ever heard the phrase "grinning like an idiot"? How about "Ignorance is bliss"? The uncomprehending peace of the untroubled brow?

How can you seriously suggest that the lot of mankind is better when people bask in the artificial joy of ignorance and delusion?

If that's the case, why bother with education, religion, government, art, literature... Anything at all? Surely by now, we can just build some robots to load us up with euphoric drugs. Let's all live short lives of unbridled joy until we drown, blissfully unaware, in pools of our own waste.

[PopeMac]

...I feel that people should decide for themselves what to believe; believing what someone else tells you just because it's easier than thinking about it yourself leads to all kinds of problems.

Holy fragrant elf crap... Why is it "people of faith" seem to have such profound difficulty with the meaning of the word "believe"? It's not possible to choose what you believe. It's not possible to "decide" what you believe. Belief is an involuntary state... The evidence comes in, the "facts" and sources are considered and weighed, and the mind either grants them credence or not.

Belief may be largely involuntary, but there are plenty of ways to influence it. First and foremost, one can simply decide not to think about a particular subject, thus preventing that person's beliefs on the subject from changing. Furthermore, the 'facts and sources' which the mind uses in its formation of belief are not built-in; one must actively seek them out, or at the very least remain open to them instead of simply ignoring them. Plus, some sources (especially people) are often wrong. Assuming that a particular claim is true without making any attempt to verify it is stupid. Anyway, what I'm trying to say here is that people should actually take time to think about what they believe. Anything that does not make sense should be discarded or investigated further, rather than being labeled 'a matter of faith' or something like that.

[Seth Marati]

So, if I understand you correctly, you're saying people can effectively choose what to believe by choosing to stick with their convictions instead of thinking about them, burying their heads in the sand, and taking steps to avoid hearing or thinking about anything that would make them uncomfortable about their lack of thought.

Really, this is just further reasoning why religious beliefs don't deserve a whole heck of a lot of respect.

(I feel like I could and should think harder and be more elaborate about this, perhaps to the point of affecting my overall sentiments, but I just woke up and I have to get ready for class.)

[PopeMac]

So, if I understand you correctly, you're saying people can effectively choose what to believe by choosing to stick with their convictions instead of thinking about them, burying their heads in the sand, and taking steps to avoid hearing or thinking about anything that would make them uncomfortable about their lack of thought.

Yeah, pretty much. The main trouble occurs when people like that try to convince other people that their point of view is right without having any actual idea of what that point of view entails. Even worse is when they try to impose their own moral code on others without being able to back it up - "There should be a law against that!" "Why?" "Because God says so!" "Okay, but why does God say so? Is there a reason behind it, or is God just making arbitrary rules for the hell of it?" "You're not allowed to talk about God like that!".... And so forth.

[Kittyboymuffin]

Totally with you there.

... and now I'm suddenly imagining a comedy sketch about pretty much the exact same discussion, except with fundies complaining about atheists. "The problem is that they try to use logic and reason and try to back up their arguments!" "Yeah, that's really bad!"

[PopeMac]

... and now I'm suddenly imagining a comedy sketch about pretty much the exact same discussion, except with fundies complaining about atheists. "The problem is that they try to use logic and reason and try to back up their arguments!" "Yeah, that's really bad!"

That's exactly the sort of thing I was thinking of when I said that, but with more British humor. And more Alan Rickman.

[Honor]

Belief may be largely involuntary, but there are plenty of ways to influence it.

100% involuntary, and yes... Of course, there are myriad ways to influence it.

First and foremost, one can simply decide not to think about a particular subject, thus preventing that person's beliefs on the subject from changing.

Absolutely true... But this isn't choosing what you believe... Consider an analogy: I can choose whether or not to eat a whole cheesecake, but that doesn't alter the effect that that cheesecake will have if I take it into my body and metabolize it.

To carry the illustration further, one can be exposed to - chew and even swallow, as it were - information, and then "throw it up" without due consideration and understanding... But if they metabolize information, it will have it's effect. There's simply no way around it.

Furthermore, the 'facts and sources' which the mind uses in its formation of belief are not built-in; one must actively seek them out, or at the very least remain open to them instead of simply ignoring them.

True again, but the same kind of "not to point". Not seeking out information is not the same as not believing the information. It's avoiding eating the cake... Not being immune to the calories.

Even worse is when they try to impose their own moral code on others without being able to back it up - "There should be a law against that!" "Why?" "Because God says so!" "Okay, but why does God say so? Is there a reason behind it, or is God just making arbitrary rules for the hell of it?" "You're not allowed to talk about God like that!".... And so forth.

Reminds me of a conversation between... I think it was Socrates and a student, but it may have been Aristotle... in which a very obvious and convincing illustration was made that the "moral laws" between Gods and man must, obviously flow from us to them and not in the other direction. IOW, "god" says this is "immoral" because man has told him so... Not the other way around.

[PopeMac]

Honor, I think I see what you're saying here. It took me a while, but I think that was mostly due to my rather vague definition of 'belief.' Reading the thread about whether or not one can choose to believe in things certainly helped. At any rate, there was mention made of cheesecake. Now I feel compelled to go off in search of some. Good day to all.

[Kittyboymuffin]

Mmmm, cheesecake.

Both definitions.

[PopeMac]

Mmmm, cheesecake.

Both definitions.

Indeed! Unfortunately, I was unable to find either yesterday, so my search continues. If all else fails, I will have to get a ride to the Cheesecake Factory, where I will proceed to sample every single type of cheesecake they have. That's right, I'm going to die from cheesecake overdose, and I will regret nothing!

[Honor]

Honor, I think I see what you're saying here. It took me a while, but I think that was mostly due to my rather vague definition of 'belief.' Reading the thread about whether or not one can choose to believe in things certainly helped.

::blink... blink... tears well up... hugs PopeMac fiercely::

[Putaro]

While I like SinFest as well, it's definitely got a religious subtext running through it. Not just the characters, but the slant is very reminiscent of Asians who went through Christian Bible Studies (as many of my friends from high school did). Having a rather blatant plug for why you should believe in God doesn't surprise me at all. It's really different than Ghastly's take on religion, with the various Jesus's (Jesuses?) and Bishonen Buddha popping up to lampoon religion while the comic itself does not express a Christian/religious viewpoint.

[Doogitus]

Reminds me of a conversation between... I think it was Socrates and a student, but it may have been Aristotle... in which a very obvious and convincing illustration was made that the "moral laws" between Gods and man must, obviously flow from us to them and not in the other direction. IOW, "god" says this is "immoral" because man has told him so... Not the other way around.

I think you're referring to the Euthyphro, a dialogue by Plato between Socrates and Euthyphro. It's definitely a choice one.

some of the happiest people I know are people who exercize thier faith regularly, I've never bumped into an athiest that showed joy in the same way as others that purely belive that there is something out there greater than themselves in this world and that we're not alone. we have some loving element that exsists within us and everrthing around us making sure that we'll be treated decently when everything is said and done.

I feel a tremendous joy currently. There is no creator of the universe who loves me, but I no less love the universe. The world is beautiful and I am delighted. I am not alone just because deities are missing, the rocks and trees and colors and van Allen Belts and ice cream and people and cats and pornography and Plato are all still around. When everything is done for me, I will be done, but this doesn't bother me at all; in fact it's beautiful. Mortality is great. It allows us to have some meaning, not the kind of meaning that is given to us, but the kind where we say that we may be but dust, and the things we care about me but dust, but care we do! Not that I think you are saying all atheists are necessarily grumpy, but I am perhaps as happy as the theists you had in mind. I am certainly happier now than I am when I was Christian; if I weren't, I'd go back! A classic argument I kept for Christianity was that there was a richer experience, an extra layer of meaning, a presence, or something to this effect, which those who dud not know god were missing - but I have found it to be precisely the opposite! I am missing nothing but a delusion I set up for myself by my own misguided wishful thinking, a comfortable god I no longer cease to acknowledge, but cease to wish for at all. I'm happier this way.

[Vedius Pollio]

It bothers me in the same way, and for the same reason, as it bothers me when someone is consumed with unnatural fears... Or when someone is crippled by racism... Or when someone is hobbled by an addiction to drugs.

It bothers me, as it bothers me to see someone condemned to a life half lived for lack of education and broad understanding.

It bothers me as it bothers me to see a little girl or young woman think of herself as less than she is, because she is told, repeatedly, of her own worthlessness by those who should be helping to hold her up and realize her own potential.

It bothers me when I see someone drowning... But this is so much worse, because these people are so very rarely satisfied with drowning by themselves. They cling to those around them, and drag them down with them...

They've filled a hole inside themselves with a hollow shell of an idea, and they're desperately thrashing... Consumed with the fervid hope that, if they simply surround themselves with enough 'others' to reassure them that they're ok and on the right track, the feeling of emptiness will go away.

I don't quite agree with this statement. I don't think God is any more of a hollow shell of an idea than any other ideology.

It really depends on the follower. On one hand we have dumb hicks like Fred Phelch and on the other we have Augustine, Maimonides, Aquinas, St. Francis, Heironymous Bosch, Fra Angelico, the monks that invented Gregorian chanting, and John Donne.

A stupid Christian will naturally worship a hollow God, because stupid people can only conceive of stupid things to worship. Naturally, all of their theology will be more cartoony than an intelligent Christian's theology.

For instance:

look at hell...

the Reverend Phelch depicts hell as a place for homosexuals to burn in. He doesn't really view it as anything more than fire and faeces.

Bosch's hell is nightmarish, but at the same time, extremely imaginative. Salvador Dali (and all of the Surrealists, really) didn't really make much of an improvement on Bosch's craziness.

I view religion as a sort of highly-ordered, but only half-logical, way of seeing the world. Half-logical because there's no extra-Biblical proof for God's existence, but Judeo-Christian debates about the content WITHIN the bible have a definite rigour to them.

I myself do not believe in sin or divine law (and therefore believe in a monistic-materialistic Spinozan deity that makes NO demands of its followers; in fact it is impossible for Deus Sive Natura not to have followers because it is impossible to disobey it). However, I do have a sentimental attachment to the mythical idea of a God (or gods), and a sentimental attachment to several bible stories (such as the story of Elijah, the destruction of Sodom, etc.).

I only disrespect religious positions if I find their teachings abhorrent. I despise most of Catholicism after Vatican 2. It has become a pansy-arsed religion, full of silly "guitar sermons" and gospel music instead of the Latin Rite (which I think is aesthetically pleasing). I also find Catholicism's "Culture of Life" ideology absolutely moronic. I've always hated JPII, because I don't view old people with very much reverence. Once they enter their second childhood, they are decrepit parodies of children (and should be ground up and fed to livestock). Nothing to respect or pay heed to. World Youth Days, bans on contraception, bans on abortion, and outdated marriage laws irk me.

I do, however, respect the Jesuits and the various monastic orders. They're still composed of essentially intelligent people, and monks are isolated enough from the rest of the world not to have to worry about contraception or abortion like petty conservatives.

Other religions I have no shortage of contempt for: Jehovah's Witnesses, a significant portion of Hinduism (and other eastern charlatanism), Scientology (but I don't hate it as much as the Watchtower religion), any form of Christianity that involves camping on youth retreats and singing Kumbaya by the campfire, any form of Neo-Paganism that involves crystals, Gospel music (when it is sung by white people), and all forms of Marxism and Freudianism.

VP

[Wipperwill]

I havent forgotten to reply, just got back from underway for 2 weeks. and Im thinking on it.

[Honor]

I havent forgotten to reply, just got back from underway for 2 weeks. and Im thinking on it.

O.O

I sense a distinct risk of navylust...

[BriHahn]

Totally with you there.

... and now I'm suddenly imagining a comedy sketch about pretty much the exact same discussion, except with fundies complaining about atheists. "The problem is that they try to use logic and reason and try to back up their arguments!" "Yeah, that's really bad!"

Wow; deja vu.

I just saw pretty much this exact same lampoon on another forum I frequent today; except that forum was poking fun at the members of the Loose Change forum. With good reason, I might add; one of the truthers in a post essentially complained that "debunkers" try to use "logic and reason and evidence" against their little fantasy. Yeah, because in reality we're supposed to rebut their arguments with even more fantasy. Riiiiiiight.

[/derail]