Circumcision.

[ManaUser]

necessary, if optional

Say what?

[Swordsman3003]

If it's so necessary, why this?

http://www.cirp.org/library/general/wallerstein/

80% of the world's population is uncircumcised and that percent is increasing?? Even in the US?

[Akrites]

If it's so necessary, why this?

http://www.cirp.org/library/general/wallerstein/

80% of the world's population is uncircumcised and that percent is falling?? Even in the US?

Does popular consensus make it right? More people believe in UFOs than in God. But who gets stranger looks.

Should it happen? I, having no children, can be as idealistic as possible. If I did have children, god forbid, picture it this way. These are the people who in 60 or so years, will be taking care of ME. Yeah, they'll be "adults" and matured, but what maybe that last thing that breaks their wit? Not getting a pony for their birthday? Being grounded on senior skip day? Being forced to go bowling with your first hangover? Your mother walking in on you and your SO while they are performing oral sex on you and her attacking your SO?

Each may or may not be a major issue, but it all piles up. Before you decide to tell the Dr "Keep the tip", think about how much you're willing to gamble that this may or may not be the start of your life in the "Cozy Cadavers Retirement Facility"

Then again, like I said, I got no kids, so I can be as idealistic as hell.

[Lictor]

.......In fact, it makes hygiene simpler and reduces the chance of a nasty infection while the child is still in diapers. ......

I beg your pardon. You would be putting a very recently open wound ,all be it covered with a piece of gauze or bandage, into a diaper, a very germ filled and concentrated area at particular times, when the child is at one of the most vulnerable stages of it's life. The bandage would also have to be changed regularly to help keep the wound clean. How is this making hygiene simpler and reducing the chance of a nasty infection?

For the record I am not circumsised myself and I am well in favour of banning the procedure except for a valid medical reason. "Simpler Hygiene" in my view is not a valid medical reason.

[Toawa]

I beg your pardon. You would be putting a very recently open wound ,all be it covered with a piece of gauze or bandage, into a diaper, a very germ filled and concentrated area at particular times, when the child is at one of the most vulnerable stages of it's life. The bandage would also have to be changed regularly to help keep the wound clean. How is this making hygiene simpler and reducing the chance of a nasty infection?

It's hard to compare 2-3 days of extra care vs. 2-4? 5? etc. years of one less thing to worry about. Hell, if you want to put it that way, it's probably in one of the better areas; (healthy) urine is antiseptic.

[RavenxDrake]

necessary, if optional

Say what?

Quote the whole sentance if you're going to quote.

The medical community in the U.S. sees circumcision as a valid and necessary, if optional, procedure.

Quoted for emphasis. He didn't say He did(though he seems to be argueing for the right, if not not the requirement, for circumcision) and he didn't say everyone does. He said the Medical Community in the US does... and quite frankly, he's right. Having been present at the birth of my nephew I'm well aware that doctors will usually bring up circumcision. And, in fact, almost always paint it solely in a positive light ("simple procedure", "hygenicly beneficial", "no recolection" etc, etc). Now, my sister(a former EMT and RN) was well aware of the benefits and potential problems with the procedure, and chose to have him circumscised for his benefit as infections and phimosis are common in the family.

Does that mean it's right and ethical? Actually... sure, I'll say it does. It's as ethical as any other elective surgery, moreso than most purely cosmetic ones. As long as the choice is made in an informed manner, with rational thought. The procedure is neither ethical nor immoral... IF there's any ammount of moral consequence to the act, it lies with those charged to make the decision about it in the proxie of another as with any medical procedure.

[Sexy_fork]

I'm actually going to post my circumsized boyfriend's response.

he likes it. he finds it convenient and honestly don't care about the supposed loss of sensitivity. in fact, he attributes his (amazing and wonderful) stamina to said desensitizing. he still enjoys sex (to an extreme) and has absolutely no complaints. he plans to circumsize his male children.

I personally don't want to circumsize my male children, just because I don't want to affect their lives in a way they have no say over it when it doesn't really grant any benefit. I don't mind cleaning them up - as a mother, it's my job to teach them how to care for themselves, and to care for them until they can.

human beings and their anthropological ancestors survived with foreskins for millions of years before it became a part of the Jewish creed.

[Kite-san]

Braces aren't necessary - but they make for a prettier smile, and they prevent potential serious problems.

small thing, but not always. my braces were a matter of absolute urgency, my 'adult' incisors (i think they're the incisors, the ones to the sides of the front teeth) were coming in directly behind my adult front teeth, and the braces were stuck in with a desperate hope that they'd work quickly enough that i'd avoid needing massive oral surgery. i still have a salami slicer glued in behind my teeth to keep my teeth from fucking up my jaw bones, and will for the next fifteen years.

[Atom*Bonds]

Last spring in Feminist Theory, my group did a presentation on Female Genital Mutilation (now called female genital cutting in deference to those who practice it). Of couse, I had the balls to bring up Male circumcision, for perspective. Talking about penises in a room full of feminists? Haha.

I did get most of my research from http://www.cirp.org, which isn't quite unbiased, I think, but it does have really extensive info and was quite helpful. I could talk about why I think circumcision shouldn't take place in infancy, but a lot of people have already covered my points.
I'll add just one: at a few days old, the penis is not fully developed, and it can expose tissue that's still growing to bacteria from excretia in the diaper, etc. Sorry, that wasn't quite articulate. (I view it a bit like peeling apart two layers that aren't quite separated yet.) To elucidate, foreskin helps keep the head moist, hardening can decrease sensitivity in the future (the skin of the glans hardens a bit over time).

But then, I don't have a penis, so can only rely on what I read/experience.


In terms of FGM, it is much more extreme than male circumcision in most cases. Also, strangely enough, most women welcome it. Both are very *cultural* procedures. In societies practicing FGM, it is seen as the norm. In order to be a woman (and eligible for marriage and having a family) you must have it done. It is often done as part of a right of passage, and the elder women do it. It is sometimes done with glass, though. Most women want it because otherwise they will be different, they will not be accepted, they will not find a husband, they will not honor their families, etc.
Some parents decide to circumcise so they're son looks like his father or the other boys at school. Another instance of cultural pressures. *shrug*

Could be wrong, but this is how I've come to understand things. If I ever have children I don't plan on circumcising them, I will leave that decision up to them.

[Fnyunj]

... Female Genital Mutilation (now called female genital cutting in deference to those who practice it). ....

wow - just. . . wow.

That's the worst example of "Political Correctness" I've ever encountered.

(yes, I know; double-standard in that I don't like the use of the word "mutilation" to describe ordinary, male circumcision, and I insist on its use for female circumcision. In my mind, the two procedures are in no way equivalent.)

Look - eventually, circumcision, both male and female, are going to "go away". Maybe not in my generation, maybe not in my kids' generation, but eventually. 80% of the world doesn't practice either. With the spread of Abrahamic religions, maybe it doesn't seem likely, but it is just a matter of time. I personally don't oppose it, and I don't feel all that bad about circumcising my boys - and I don't really think there's any meaningful loss of sensitivity (or increase of sensitivity) where male circumcision is involved - and if there is, the human brain compensates.

I'm reminded of a study done on paraplegics, who, while they have no sensation of their genitals, somehow there is some kind of rewiring, and some are able to not only become psychologically aroused, they are also able to achieve what they describe as an orgasm. - I don't advocate the voluntary severing of spinal cords, but this demonstrates that the human body does adjust in ways we don't fully understand, and of course, that sexuality is psychological, to a larger degree than most people grasp.

(http://www.paralinks.net/paralinksarchi ... tysci.html)

[Lulujayne]

Well, seeing as Lindsay Bluth is always a rational voice of reason -

"It's a doberman, let them have their ears."

Anyways, I've always been amazed at the heated opinions that such a tiny little flap of skin generates.

In truth, I've never really noticed it one way or the other on the various sexual partners I've enjoyed - unless they've specifically mentioned it, or like one poor guy, suffered from very severe formosis/formosus.
In the case of that extremely painful circumstance circumsicion is a necessity, just ask Louis XVI and Marie Antionette, they didn't concieve for 7 years of their marriage (some historians argue that this early torpor in creating an hier to the throne was one of the first nails in the regal coffin prior to the revolution... but I digress) because he was too terrified to have the simple operation to cure what was unbelievable agony during arousal.

Incidentally, thanks to good old wiki, I discovered that there was a Pope Formosus. Does anybody know the etymology of this word (latin)? I'm so intrigued by this pope named after what has now commonly become known as a penis "disfigurement" (for want of a better word.)

[RavenxDrake]

Actually I think you're looking for Phemosis (a condition where the foreskin does not fully, or in extreem cases cannot, retract over the head of the penis).

It's actually pretty common, and can develop over time. In my case, it resulted in an advanced condition known as paraphemosis, a condition where the foreskin, once retracted, locks into place behind the glans and cannot move.

To give you a visual representaiton, put on a hooded sweater/sweatshirt that has a drawstring closeing for the hood. Now, pull the drawstring as tightly as you can, then try to push your face through. Paraphemosis is a condition that persists even when flacid, and can cut off bloodflow to the head, resulting in gangrene and other nasty aspects and required medical attention to aleviate on my part(the first time).

Circumcision could, technically, have prevented this from occuring. Of course, I could have opted to take circumcision after the paraphemosis incedent and didn't, prefering to work with non-surgical means to aleviate the problem. The fact is, I didn't see a need to circumcise myself in this condition, even though it meant more work for me... but I would hold that circumcision should be held on the table as an open, elective medical condidition simply because I think branding the practice as "barbaric mutilation" and having it banned would be a detriment to those for whom it really is a signifigant benefit.

[Lulujayne]

Damn my dodgy ears. Right problem, wrong word.

An ex of mine had this complaint pretty severely - circumscision was the only option. It really used to hurt the ppor guy.

Anyways, I still want to know why everyone hated Formosus

[Ce6]

I for one, as a circumcised male living in the U.S., would prefer that the operation remain available as a recommended but optional practice performed in a strictly controlled medical environment. Just be careful about who your child's psychologist is should some unfortunate accident occur.
I do not regret my parents making the decision to have it done to me at birth, and I didn't even know I was missing anything until they taught us about foreskin and circumcision in middle school health class. When (if) I ever have a son, I will most likely opt for him to have it done as well, as there is still plenty of pleasure to be found with the remaining penis, and a lot less hassle with daily cleanliness and potential complications.
I think a more appropriate analogy than FGM for medical male infant circumcision would be the HPV vaccine. It is most effective when given to young girls before they become sexually active, typically has no major complications, and guards against a potential problem that might never occur (in this case, cervical cancer).

As for the morality of male vs. female "circumcision," in my view the difference lies in the reasoning behind why and the practicioner performing potentially perilous partial penectomies (what? there's no fine for alliteration in here.)
When performed by a doctor, either on a male infant at request of the parents, or on a consenting adult, I do not see a reason to ban the procedure.

When performed for ritualisitc purposes (societal or religious) by a non-medical professional, I have strong moral objections to an such practice carried out on one who is not capable of giving full informed consent. Thus I would not lose any sleep over such acts being deemed illegal.
A year or three ago I had read somewhere of a rise in the cases of Jewish baby boys in one city (possibly New York) being diagnosed with herpes (or a similar STD, I don't remember exactly which), traced back to an infected Moyle who had performed their circumcisions in strict accordance with traditional practices (as defined in the article. I'm not Jewish, and I'm sure someone else here will try to correct me if this is wrong) - Step 1: cut; Step 2: suck the blood from the wound; Step 3: he's a Jew.

[Lulujayne]

Where's Tellner when you need him?

[Katjapurrs]

hygine problems?

please... it's not like a penis is hard to maintain...

"Oh geesh... i gotta pull it back and wash it!! *waaaaaah!*"

buck up.

[Lulujayne]

*gently (?!) tackles KatjaPurrs*

Welcome back dearheart!

[Leeloo]

hygine problems?

please... it's not like a penis is hard to maintain...

"Oh geesh... i gotta pull it back and wash it!! *waaaaaah!*"

buck up.

Funniest part about it... The recommended way to do the (tiny amount of) cleaning necessary is to simply masturbate in the shower.

guards against a potential problem that might never occur (in this case, cervical cancer).

Read the article linked further up in the thread. You are repeating one of the fully debunked claims that quacks (I refuse to call them doctors) use to scare parents into getting the procedure doneto their babies.

[Swordsman3003]

What? Why do you think circumcision is the same as the HPV vaccine???

When you get that vaccine there is not ONE SINGLE THING you could mention as some kind of negative consequence. There are a few consequences of circumcision that have been mentioned.

I'll make an analogy to explain how shitty your analogy is.

Were trying to decide if eating fried chicken is a good idea, and bring up the good and bad points. Then you say "eating fried chicken is like eating grapes. both are nutritious!"

[Xnapalmxmorningx]

yeeesh who knew that a bit of skin would be such a blood boiler