in his name...wait what?

[Honor]

Christmas presents

That already existed before Christianity.

Fine then, how about Peeps? Mmmmm....marshmallowy goodness and we wouldn't have them if it wasn't for Easter!

I like Sarah Silverman on the subject:

What does Jesus have to do with you?
You’ve got as much to do with Jesus as you do with Scooby Doo,
What do you have to do with Jesus?
You have as much to do with him as you do your mother’s penis, oh yeah.

And peeps...? We'd have peeps anyway. They'd just be shaped or colored differently. Maybe named differently.

Seriously, though... I've often said "manyof the best and all of the worst things in human history have to do with (or were done in the name of) religion."

[Honor]

Faith-based charities that help the impoverished, the ill, and the dying are a good effect of Christianity.

I'm not sure where I'd stand on that one... If there was no "non-faith based" charity, it'd be a no-brainer... As it is...

Well, I'll put it this way. There is definately a foul-smelling aspect to the fact that, without the shameful finger-wagging of people representing an imaginary diety, all too many humans wouldn't give a second thought to the idea of charity until they needed some themselves.

[Spiral Zer0]

Name a good effect of Christianity.

FUCK IT I MUST SPEAK


there are many positive aspects about christianity that are not directly tied into going to church every sunday.

working hard, self control, honor, love, disipline, perserverance, self respect, respect for others, being humble, using common sence.

the fucking list goes on and on, don't blame god because a bunch of idiots misinterpret his teachings.

it's okay *well not really* to say that you want nothing to do with god but don't blame god for human mistakes. blame the fucktards who think they can marry multiple people, fuck anyone they want, and openly discriminate against others because god said so.

[Honor]

With hugs and kisses for Johnny and Lulujayne...

Honor's argument is predicated on two premises (I think - do correct me if I'm wrong) : first, that it is injurious to hold false beliefs, and second, that Christianity is false. From a Kantian, deontological perspective, it doesn't matter how good the consequences are of believing a falsehood; it's harmful to your rational nature and therefore wrong, in the same way that no matter how good smoking crack makes you feel, it's still bad for you.

That's so beautifully stated...

I might have added the word "demonstrably" before "false" in "christianity is false".... But, then, I'm combative that way.

Ok... So "I might have added" is a bit wishful... Sadly, it obviously didn't come to me to state it so succinctly in the first place... So what I might or might not have added becomes wishful thinking at best.

[Shirt Guy Xom]

You are are so stupid, can't you realize the truth...?

The whole world is just my imagination. I'm the only real person.

[Honor]

Name a good effect of Christianity.

FUCK IT I MUST SPEAK

there are many positive aspects about christianity that are not directly tied into going to church every sunday.

working hard, self control, honor, love, disipline, perserverance, self respect, respect for others, being humble, using common sence.

Aw, shit... Now I have to, too.

See, the problem is that none of these things you've listed is "a good effect of christianity" per se... Any more or less than they are good effects of judaism, bhuddism, hinduism, islam, and, most importantly, let's not forget, simply being a decent agnostic or athiest human being.

None of those things come from christianity (or religion) first or foremost or exclusively... None of those traits are the sole domain of christians or other religious folk... Some of them, like respect for "others" (outside the sect) and using common sense, are in fact quite the opposite... Rare if ever evidenced in the religious mind throughout human history...

Would you at least agree that sometimes people do all those things without religion...? Then we're half way home. But wait... it gets better.

How often is the reverse true...? How many Spanish Inquisitions have there been without religion, just because people were being decent human beings? How many office buildings have been destroyed by suicide bombers without the influence of religion? The KKK, the Nazis, the Taliban, the Arayan Nation... All cite the will of god in the evil they do... How many similar groups can you think of that say "well, we're agnostic, but we sure hate those colored folks." or "We are the athiest liberation front! We will carbomb another building every day until our demands are met!!"

the fucking list goes on and on, don't blame god because a bunch of idiots misinterpret his teachings.

it's okay *well not really* to say that you want nothing to do with god but don't blame god for human mistakes. blame the fucktards who think they can marry multiple people, fuck anyone they want, and openly discriminate against others because god said so.

First: No... bullshit... you can't have it both ways. You can't say "You're only allowed to judge religion based on the nice, fluffyl, warm things about it... Not the terrible and fucked up things." It's all or nothing. As long as religion is composed of multiple aspects, it's only going to be proper to consider the whole thing.

Second: Whoah, dude... You really kind of went off the rails there, didn't you? Marry multiple people? Fuck anyone they want? First, I think your indoctrination is showing just a little... Got some sex issues, maybe?

Second, says who? Who the hell are you (pardon the strident tone... I'm being argumentative, not trying to be personally affrontive) to say what god's teachings are...? To say which are god's teachings and which are the misinterpretations of those teachings by malicious or just plain stupid men?

What's the litmus test...? Are the ones you like the true word of god while the ones you disagree with are the misinterpretations?

Would you do me a favor and have god send a list down to me, where she's crossed off the misintpretations in red? If she's onmicient and omnipotent, as advertised, that really shouldn't be a problem, should it?

[Spiral Zer0]

I don't want this to become a huge deal so I stand by what I said and I have nothing more to say on top of that =P

[Shirt Guy Xom]

That is a good way to lose a debate right there. And also a good sign that you have no idea what you are talking about.

[Spiral Zer0]

fuck it fine


beware false idols and and false whorrship beware false prophets yadda yadda yadda basically according to those statements christianity is the only true religion all others are false.


there are many statements staing that just because you think you're doing the right thing it doesn't mean you are there are always twists and turns and little loopholes that make us belive that we are doing the right thing when we really aren't doing the right thing.

jesus says at one point celibrate my death not my birth *oh hey christmas*

sex, only intended for procreation and occational pleasure between MAN AND WIFE.

absolute trust and faith in god stay away from thigns that are wicked, hell the fucking list goes on I know what I'm fucking talking about and I'm tired of being called out.


YOU DON'T HAVE TO AGREE WITH ME, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with anyone else either.

instead of throwing my opinion out the fucking window try talking to me instead of just pointing the finger and saying "well you're wrong and you don;'t know shit"

and xom

no offence, shut the fuck up

[Honor]

*edit*

Nevermind... It's gone -way- beyond ostich level.

[Spiral Zer0]

yeah and it's pretty silly how they stick thier heads in the sand, or do they?

[Honor]

yeah and it's pretty silly how they stick thier heads in the sand, or do they?

They do indeed...

So, dude... How do you know all that stuff came from god and not from man, men, the Council of Nicea, etc...?

[Spiral Zer0]

I don't, but I cannot explain man's exsistance

and really dispite the fact that it isn't fun would following the teaching of the bible to a strict degree kill me?

[Honor]

I don't, but I cannot explain man's exsistance

and really dispite the fact that it isn't fun would following the teaching of the bible to a strict degree kill me?

None of that has anything to do with the question...

Science can explain man's existence quite nicely, but even if it couldn't, that's no reason to model your life after, say, Thomas the Tank Engine, Green Eggs and Ham, or any other wacked out book.

Likewise, following the teaching of "Hop on Pop" to a strict degree wouldn't kill me either, but that's no reason to rush out and do it.

Don't you think you should at least actually subject some of these ideas to a little critical thought?

[Spiral Zer0]

does it make sence to take a leap of faith and to do something or dedicate to something that has no structure what so ever. no

but, again it wouldn't kill me.

really I don't get it, human beings only go on fact but truth be told we haven't even figured out how we made it here.

so if you can give me proof that the world and human life was created by explosions and such then maybe I'll reconsider.

but there is no reason not to belive dispite lack of evidence or the chance and possiblility of some unknown people making rules and saying that something that can't be seen or heard said this is what we should do.

and to be honest it's not that bad if you look at the right aspects.

now I'm not a bible thumper, I just belive in god.

should I be told I'm wrong for wanting to do that?

I don't need a reason or logic or proof to belive that something greater is responsible for my exsistance.

[Linkara]

In order to avoid any ugliness, I'll step in and be the punching bag in defense of Christianity. ^_~

Your right, Honor, those things that Spiral listed probably would've existed regardless of Christianity and could just as well spring out of any other religion. But for some people, they only learned those things as a result of their belief in Christianity. In the terms of the conversation and the question of "what good things from Christianity," we were discussing actual things that have happened, not the hypothetical what-ifs of things that would've resulted if Christianity hadn't been around. In this case, we listed off positive things that have come about as a result of Christianity or in some way due to association with it.

I don't deny that there are zealots out there, I just have a problem with the assumption that because there are crazies within the religion that the religion itself is worthless. I know that's not your argument, but it sometimes can feel that way.

Sure, we can subject some of our ideas to critical thought. That's why this conversation started - on discussing possibilities about the relationship of author and character to God and living being. The thing is that you have to recognize that part of having faith is believing that sometimes there are things that we don't believe can be explained within the world and/or we don't want explained within the world. Furthermore that we take a greater comfort in believing that there is an all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful entity that wants the best for us and we can put some hope in (along with hope in ourselves) that things will come out right in the end. It's why it's called a "Leap of Faith," because it's designed to leap beyond rationalism, beyond logic, beyond everything our empirical senses tell us about the world and believe in something out there that's beyond us.

To Spiral, I will say that giving proof about how the universe was created wouldn't change my belief in Christianity, anyway. Okay, you can show me the Big Bang, but I'd just say that God was responsible for the Big Bang and that it fitted into his ideas of how the universe was meant to operate and begin. His "Let there be light" resulted in a tremendous explosion that created everything. To me, science demonstrates the "how," but not the "why." ^_~

To bring in another philosophical argument, Xom has actually demonstrated a great one right there! The problem of other people. Through my rationalism and my ability to be deceived, I can believe in my own existence, but since it is very well likely my senses are being deceived in some manner and this could all be a dream or the product of imagination, I cannot be certain that anything other than myself exists in the world. It's a tenuous connection, I admit, but it brings in the idea that I have to make a leap of faith to believe that other people exist.

[Spiral Zer0]

and I can work with what you've just said, besides honor already knows that I'm just a punching bag for her when she gets bored.

[Honor]

Dude...

o.o

Um... Where to begin...?

Um... The world and human life were not "created by explosions and such". At all. Except, perhaps, in the most abstract sense, since the elements we are made of - carbon, nitrogen, oxygen... heck, all elements heavier than hydrogen - are only formed in the explosions of stars.

You say "really I don't get it, human beings only go on fact but truth be told we haven't even figured out how we made it here."

But, yes... dude, yes... We have. Not in a cosmic "where did the universe come from" sense, but pretty much on every other level, we have very, very good data.

And even the fact that we don't know on a "where (andwhy?) did the universe come from level, doesn't mean we shouldjust start accepting wholly made up answers that just make absolutely no sense...

Like the ones you gave above... You keep ignoring that question... You list off all these completely arbitrary and nonsensical rules that people attribute to god, but when I asked, essentially, "How do you know those are god's rules and not some made up bullshit?" you just ignore the question.

How do you know god said any of that?

[Spiral Zer0]

I did answer you, I don't.

and I'm okay with that, so please stop beating me into the ground.

[Honor]

and I can work with what you've just said, besides honor already knows that I'm just a punching bag for her when she gets bored.

Pfft. You're flattering yourself, honey. I like my punching bags with considerably more stuffing.

I'm in this conversation (the specific sub-thread with you, I mean) for one reason and one reason only... I love it when the light-bulb goes on over someone's head and they wake up from the long coma of religious faith to the warm sunlightof reality.

It's the same reason some people love teaching... That look when someone "gets it"... When it clicks home, and they're finally awake... It's wonderful.

Linkara... Sorry, you posted while I was still typing, and now it's 3am... I have to have some ice cream and go to bed... good response later, ok?