Moore stuff

Postby Russ on Sun May 27, 2001 10:00 am

V for Vendetta (not Victory).<P>Tom Strong: I was iffy on it for the first couple issues, then it really grew on me. Especially once it became clear what sort of meta game Moore was playing.<P>Top Ten and Promethea were the same way for me. Top Ten is kinda fluffy, but by the end of the first collection I found myself caring about those wacky characters. And Promethea at first felt too contrived and literal in its story/metaphor schtick, but I ended up getting sucked in. Moore is just one clever dude.<P>------------------
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Postby Screwball McGoo [gDC] on Mon May 28, 2001 7:18 am

I have a Trade Hardcover of Tom Strong which has-- what?? -- 5 or 6 issues, so I can't judge from anything other than that. I think, based upon my reading, that Moore works better in a mini-series, for me at least, because everything tends to be used all at once.<P>------------------
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Postby John Pierce on Tue May 29, 2001 3:53 am

Promethea's by far my favorite of what he's doing now. The stories are more complex and the art is absolutely amazing. The page layouts are always inventive and unique. Moore and Williams are reinventing how comics are told in this one title alone.<P>------------------
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Postby Screwball McGoo [gDC] on Wed May 30, 2001 1:50 am

JP's back. Hurrah.<P>Promethea, eh? Is there a trade of that and if not what company will I find it under?<P>Does anyone else find it funny that John considers someone other than Scott McCloud to be (wait for it!) Reinventing Comics?<P>------------------
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Postby John Pierce on Wed May 30, 2001 3:31 am

That's 'cause McCloud's book was pretty disappointing. Especially considering how excellent Understanding Comics was.
Promethea's first collection is in print right now, the second is coming soon. Unfortunately, I believe only hardcover editions are available, meaning one will set you back $25. Not that it's not worth it...<P>V for Vendetta is also excellent. After I read it, I had to knock down Watchmen to Moore's third best work after From Hell and V.
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Postby Screwball McGoo [gDC] on Thu May 31, 2001 2:41 am

I don't want to buy another hardcover if I can avoid it. I didn't realize that B&N.com really MEANT hardcover. I assumed it was code for "not so flimsy paperback." I mean Tom Strong and The League... came with freaking velvet ribbon bookmarks. I have no idea what to do with a velvet ribbon bookmark, especially after finishing both of them in a day or so.<P>Watchmen was definitely better than "V." "V" seems a bit like a rehashed version of all of those 1984-Brave New World-etc. It's good, but it's not Watchmen good. That was truly gripping. Plus, I love superheroes. Of course, judging by your new "Do this" comic, you do, too.<P>Hm... From Heck is good too? Maybe I should just buy Alan Moore and make up for in the long term. Do we want to get a pool together maybe?<P>------------------
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Postby Russ on Thu May 31, 2001 8:53 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Screwball McGoo [gDC]:
<B>I don't want to buy another hardcover if I can avoid it. I didn't realize that B&N.com really MEANT hardcover. I assumed it was code for "not so flimsy paperback." I mean Tom Strong and The League... came with freaking velvet ribbon bookmarks. I have no idea what to do with a velvet ribbon bookmark, especially after finishing both of them in a day or so.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You could use it to mark your book, velvetly.<P>So you were happy to pay the price for the book but then were disappointed it wasn't a paperback? You work in mysterious ways, McGoo.<P>I exercised unusual willpower and just read a chapter or 2 a day in all these hardback collections (Tom Strong, Top Ten, Promethea). That was enjoyable to savor them over a few weeks.<P>I'm glad to hear more hardbacks are on the way. Those velvet ribbons rule.<P><B>
Watchmen was definitely better than "V." "V" seems a bit like a rehashed version of all of those 1984-Brave New World-etc. It's good, but it's not Watchmen good.</B><P>Agreed, although I really should reread V since it's been a long time. Should reread Batman: The Killing Joke too, since it's nice and short. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif"><P>Oh, and like most people I agree Understanding Comics kicked Reinventing Comics's ass. Too bad about that. Still, RC was worth reading, but disappointing.<P><P>------------------
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Postby John Pierce on Thu May 31, 2001 9:52 am

Eh. I can go either way on what's better, V or Watchmen. I prefer V, but Watchmen's an absolutely amazing book.
I'm pretty firmly set, however, that From Hell is <I>much</I> better than Watchmen. Not only because Eddie Campbell is a hundred times the illustrator Dave Gibbons is (whom I think is extremely talented) but because the characters were much more intriguing, the plot better, and, well, just about everything was better.<P>I don't go for superheroes as much as I used to. If I want something serious, I look outside of superheroes, usually. I'm down to getting only three superhero books a month (Black Panther, Savage Dragon and I just recently added X-Force) which is probably the lowest I've been since I started buying comics.<P>I think people should read Reinventing Comics, just try and avoid paying money for it. It has it's moments, but while I read UC a few times every year, I doubt I'll ever look through RC again, unless it's to look up an example of how disappointing it is.<P>And I think those hardcovers will eventually be released in softcover form.
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Postby Screwball McGoo [gDC] on Fri Jun 01, 2001 12:46 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by russ:
<B> So you were happy to pay the price for the book but then were disappointed it wasn't a paperback? You work in mysterious ways, McGoo.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It was a self-birthday present. You know the kind. I was just throwing money at me. ::laughs::<P>Also, because I'm an idiot, I bought it on the Internet and didn't check the number of pages. I'd gladly have traded a bookmark and hardcover for some more. That's how I think.<P>I read "Understanding Comics" and I'm not quite sure what I got from it. I still have problems understanding that pyramid. Reinventing Comics was a bad pun. I've never read the book.<P>I haven't been buying superhero comics lately so I, essentially, haven't been buying comics. I still subscribe to Deadpool and try to keep up with the X-Men... Also, I would have kept buying Mutant X. Deadpool was REALLY good, but with each successive creative team it gets further away from the humor and more towards lame "dark" storylines such as Deadpool vs. the Punisher. Bleah.<P>I haven't read From Heck yet, so it may be better. I really do favor anything with superheroes. I absolutely glowed about Unbreakable for just that reason but I never saw the Sixth Sense. <P>Are there that many comics without superheroes other than Archie (Archie, Sonic, etc.) that I could find at the local shop that are enjoyable? <P>------------------
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Postby John Pierce on Fri Jun 01, 2001 10:06 am

The 'that I could find at the local comic shop' part makes it difficult, since so many shops carry nothing but superheroes. Still, I'll give it a try...<P>1.) Lone Wolf and Cub: Even if you can't find these at your shop, Borders or Barnes and Noble Carry various volumes in their little comics dungeons. This is one of the most beautifully written and illustrated series of books I have ever read. A painstakingly researched and hugely imaginative samurai epic. I've gotten several friends who were disinterested with comics hooked again using these books.<P>2.) The Metabarons: An absolutely insane european sci-fi adventure. Some of the most beautiful painted art ever in a comic,and plots that will make your head spin. One of the wierdest and most enjoyable comics out there.<P>There are tons of other tiles, but I've seen those two in a lot of comic shops, so I think you'll have a good chance of finding them. More if I think of them...
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Postby Russ on Fri Jun 01, 2001 10:12 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Screwball McGoo [gDC]:
<B>Are there that many comics without superheroes other than Archie (Archie, Sonic, etc.) that I could find at the local shop that are enjoyable?
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>God, you must visited benighted comic shops. There are tons of nonsuperhero comics. I am the opposite of you; I normally steer clear of superhero stuff. The exceptions are Watchmen of course, and Batman Dark Knight Returns and Year One, some of those gorgeous large-format Alex Ross (Superman Peace on Earth, etc.), and my guilty pleasure: the Batman Elseworlds stuff. (Even though many of them turn out to be lame, the cool ones are really cool.)<P>Comics I always buy and enjoy:
Evan Dorkin stuff (Dork, Milk & Cheese, Pirate Corp$)
Alex Robinson's Box Office Poison (God I love that and was sad it ended around issue 23 or so)
Roberta Gregory: Naughty Bits, Bitchy Bitch (slice-of-life adventures of a funny angry unhappy woman but that might be too naughty for you Screwball <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif">
Donna Barr: Desert Peach, Stinz, etc (weird alternate historical stuff, usually WWII related: DP has Erwin Rommel's younger gay brother, and Stinz has centaurs)
Action Girl (probably not for everyone, this is sort of wholesome anthology of fun stuff for girls but with weird fun feel to it)
Zero Zero (an arty anthology series, now ended)
Chris Ware's Acme Novelty Library & Jimmy Corrigan &c stuff of course
Frank Miller's Sin City (hardboiled crime)
House of Secrets (a DC Vertigo series, mostly defunct now)
Preacher (DC Vertigo, definitely would be more violent/crude than Screwball would like I suspect, but quite an amazing story; it ended (planned from start) with issue 66 (or thereabouts).
Jason Lutes Jar of Fools (bleak graphic novel of a washed up stage magician) and Berlin (ongoing series set in pre WWII Berlin).
Etc. That was just off the top of my head, and I'm sure I've probably omitted stuff I love. Oh yeah, like Knights of the Dinner Table = hilarious slice of life spoof of fantasy RPG players. It's wonderful fun and a long running series.<P>Get thee to a decent comic shop, man!<P><P>------------------
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Postby Screwball McGoo [gDC] on Sat Jun 02, 2001 6:47 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by russ:
<B> Get thee to a decent comic shop, man!
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You know I'm sure the shops I go to have all of these comics, but I'm really used to absolutely ignoring them. I'll try and remember what was said here and use it for the good of humanity. <P>But... I still love superheroes! And Sonic!<P>It's been bothering me that they could do an Archie vs. Punisher but not have a Sonic crossover. Oh, well... Time to stop ruining one of the more interesting non-Versus conversations here.<P>------------------
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Postby John Pierce on Sat Jun 02, 2001 7:48 am

russ, you've got some great taste in comics. Since we're going all out here (I was just reccomending ones I was 99%sure Mr. McGoo would be able to find in even the worst of stores) here goes:<P>Love and Rockets: the second issue of the new series came out thursday and it was absolutely amazing. This book has three of the greatest comics geniuses ever, putting out some of their best work ever. I can't reccomend this enough.<P>Colonia: great art, fun story and lots of pirates. Pure entertainment.<P>Transmetropolitan: Spider Jerusalem is one of the most entertaining characters in all of comics. I'm not a huge Warren Ellis fan, but I've really taken to this series.<P>Eightball: hopefuly, his stuff will be easier to find when the Ghost World movie comes out. Still, try and find some. It's absolute genius.<P>I'll also second Russ' reccomendations of anything by Evan Dorkin, Box Office Poison, Jimmy Corrigan ( his one especially), Sin City, Preacher and Knights of the Dinner Table. The others I haven't read.<P>Russ: did you actually like the Dark Knight Returns? Maybe it's me, but I just couldn't find anything good about that book at all. What's its appeal? Also, if you've read it, what did you think of From Hell?<P>Screwball: I believe there was a Sonic/Image crossover several years ago. Why I remember this I have no idea...
And Archie vs. Punisher was great.<P>------------------
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Postby SuperJoe on Sat Jun 02, 2001 10:32 am

You know what I liked? A little comic called Antisocial... no, not the webcomic. It's a comic book...
But I guess McGoo wouldn't like it cuz it's naughty and has a bunch of crack head's in it.
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Postby Screwball McGoo [gDC] on Sun Jun 03, 2001 5:06 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Pierce:
<B>Russ: did you actually like the Dark Knight Returns? Maybe it's me, but I just couldn't find anything good about that book at all. What's its appeal? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>*SPOILERS!*<P>Although it's directed at russ and I'm probably ignorant (by the looks of inability to contribute) about anything, I have to say that the biggest thing for me in Dark Knight Returns was the Ronald Reagan/Superman/Soviet Union subplot. Just like in the Watchmen, the whole 80's motif I find particularly interesting.<P>I also loved when they shot Batman in the chest and he explained that's why he had the bat symbol there.
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Postby Matt Trepal on Mon Jun 04, 2001 4:48 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Screwball McGoo [gDC]:
<B>
Are there that many comics without superheroes other than Archie (Archie, Sonic, etc.) that I could find at the local shop that are enjoyable?
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't know that I can add much, but I'll try.<P>Stan Sakai's "Usagi Yojimbo," which might put you off if you just look at the cover, since all the characters are animals, but it's every bit as histoically accurate as "Lone Wolf and Cub." In one of the early TPBs there's even a parody/tribute story called "Lone Goat and Kid."<P>Jeff Smith's "Bone," although that seemed to get slagged in another thread I read (can't remember where). Apparently, some readers were upset that Smith sold out and is merchandising his book out the wazoo. But anyway, it's an epic-type tale with a definite beginning, middle, and end; it just began the last third of the story.<P>Mike Mignola's "Hellboy," which is sporadic but just began a new storyline this month. This is a series of supernatural/paranormal tales, and the main character is the son of the Devil himself.<P>I've pretty much weaned myself from superheroes as well, except for certain Batman and Spiderman titles. I could go on about my theories on why I find those two more intriguing than any other heroes but I'll refrain (unless somebody wants to know).<P>And I'll throw out a hero title anyway, and ask if anybody else has read it: Kurt Busciek's "Astro City?" I haven't seen it for a long time, but it was a unique approach to the hero genre. Especially some of the last storylines.<P>Russ' and John's suggestions were pretty good. "Sin City" is wild, as is "Preacher." Another book you might want to look at (although I don't really care for it) is "Strangers in Paradise."<P>------------------
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Postby Russ on Mon Jun 04, 2001 8:27 am

Is Colonia by the same guy that did Through The Habitrails? I really liked TTH -- it's weird, surreal, and bleak, about life in a crappy job, with lots of metaphorical stuff about them being like hamsters and creativity getting sucked out of 'em and whatnot, plus other nonoffice stuff. A great self-contained graphic novel.<P>More cool stuff:
Dame Darcy's Meat Cake -- retro Victorian strangeness. I got to see her in real life play the bowed saw with her bluegrass band. Odd but entertaining person. She also read my palm (quite earnestly but inaccurately). I've got a signed framed print of hers in my living room (the Victorian lesbian ghouls).<P>Richard Sala's Evil Eye. Wacky stylized dark over-the-top suspense/mystery.<P>Jhonen Vasquez's Johnny the Homicidal Maniac and Squee! How could I have forgotten these before, God I love them. On a trip to Chicago someone introduced me to a girl he thought I might hit it off with; we started talking about interests, discovered we both enjoyed comics, and within seconds we spontaneously were shouting in unison "Oh my god, somebody put shit in my pants!" Sadly nothing deeply romantic happened ultimately, but it was still pretty fun at the time. Uh, obviously Jhonen is probably not really suitable for Screwball's taste. But I swear everyone I show that one story to can't help but laugh out loud, and I'll bet Screwball would too in spite of his distaste for crudity. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif"> God, I've reread it multiple times and laugh every time. Of course now I've built it up too much! <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif"><P>Alison Bechdel's Dykes to Watch out For -- ok, this is an alt-weekly newspaper strip rather than originally being comic books, but the collections are well worth reading. Ongoing stories of a great ensemble cast (that change over time, unlike most newspaper strips).<P>Much more McGoo-friendly would be Wolff & Byrd, Counselors of the Macabre: quite tasteful and delightful stories about 2 laywers whose clients are various ghosts, monsters, etc. Good fun.<P>There's Ariel Schrag's Potential series, autobiographical stuff by a high school girl which I enjoyed. Might be a bit racy for you.<P>Of course you can check out "the classics" e.g. Art Spiegelman's Maus and all the stuff by Will Eisner -- I particularly enjoyed Dropsie Avenue.<P>Oh yeah, Adrian Tomine's Optic Nerve series -- bleak little understated slice of life stories I really like.<P>More mainstream comics I like are the DC Vertigo stuff: besides already mentioned Preacher, there's House of Secrets (or did I say HoS already) and various short-run anthologies: Weird West tales and Weird War tales.<P>More whimsical G-rated fun is Jill Thompson's delightful Scary Godmother stuff.<P>I just picked up and read Evan Dorkin's DC Elseworlds book World's Funnest, which was really wacked and probably a lot of it went over my head -- he plays with all the alternate DC universes. It's pretty cool. If you see it, take a look and you'll probably see why I liked it, just flipping through and seeing all the different art styles. There are lots of big artists in there incl Frank Miller and Dave Gibbons and many more.<P>To answer questions:
I enjoyed Dark Knight partly just because it hit me at the right time in life. Till then I was never much into comics; I found superhero fare uninteresting. Then there was all this buzz about these new comics that deconstructed the whole superhero thing -- the articles were talking of course about Dark Knight and about Watchmen. I decided to check them out. I thought it was pretty cool. I liked Watchmen much more, but still found Dark Knight interesting just because of it playing around with the genre.<P>As for From Hell, I'm embarrassed to admit that I've not read all of it! It's one of those things I really need to finish: I was
reading it during a strange time in my life and got sidetracked and have never gone back to finish. Also at the time I was less fond of Eddie Campbell's style, I admit, though it's since grown on me.<P><P>------------------
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Postby Screwball McGoo [gDC] on Tue Jun 05, 2001 1:36 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by russ:
<B>Uh, obviously Jhonen is probably not really suitable for Screwball's taste... I'll bet Screwball would too in spite of his ...Much more McGoo-friendly would be Wolff & Byrd,</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sheesh! Am I that transparent? What? Where did I go? I can see through myself.<P>Ugh.<P>I'm definitely going to want to figure how to condense all of this stuff into list form. I'm not sure I can take a giant forum post into the comic shop... Maybe I'll use the Internet? Do people really use the Internet for comics or is that like using the Internet for food?
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Postby John Pierce on Tue Jun 05, 2001 3:42 am

Matt suggests some greatt books.
Usagi Yojimbo is intensely researched, wonderfully plotted and all-around fun. Like he said, it's very similar to Lone Wolf and Cub, which just about everyone who;s read it loves.<P>Hellboy is amazing, and the new mini-series, 'Conquerer Worm' started this month. I prefer Mignola's work in black and white, but the coloring is still very good.<P>russ: Yeah, Colonia, Through the Habitrails and Ultra Klutz (check the back issue bins for this one, it's hilarious) are all by Jeff Nicholson.<P>Johnny the Homicidal Maniac is great. anyone who wants to get an idea of Vasquez' art should watch 'Invader Zim' on Nickelodeon, and then imagine something even better than that.<P>Other 'classics' to check out:
To the Heart of the Storm
Barefoot Gen
Nausica
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Postby Russ on Tue Jun 05, 2001 9:35 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Screwball McGoo [gDC]:
<B> Sheesh! Am I that transparent? What? Where did I go? I can see through myself.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hey, I'm just basing that off what I know of you from our various discussions of "curse words", sex/violence, etc.<P>Still, even though Johnny the Homicidal Maniac has just a wee bit of violence, the more I think about it the more I think you should check it out. It occurs to me that you would enjoy the style of humor. He does tiny little wacky meta comments here and there, not terribly unlike those at the bottom of most of your strips. Besides, few comics can pull off creepy splatter horror, psychological angst, and hilarious comedy all at once, and JTHM does this wondrous feat.<P>Damn it, now I'm getting a hankering to reread JTHM. About 1.5 years ago I reread them all (about 7 issues I believe, + the 3 Squee issues) and quite enjoyed it.<P><P>------------------
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