Sagi sez

Blackbyrd2 · Post by **Blackbyrd2** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 1:07 am

Scuse me, but wtf???Your comic is funny, though warped. However, it is, I assumed, a work of fiction, and not meant to realistically reflect the personalities of its creators.The rants though, one assumes, reflect your actual opinions and attitudes.With this thought in mind, one wonders why you would make fun of someone for something they had no control over? Essentially, making fun of children?My brother is, as you so eloquently phrased it, retarded. This means he has about the mental and emotional development of a 16 year old. Old enough to know when people laugh at him. Old enough to realize what he will never have. Old enough to be frustrated by his own inability to grow. Old enough to be depressed by the shitty hand fate has dealt him.You find this amusing in some fashion, which I am unable to fathom.
Do you make fun of para- and quadraplegics?
People with disfiguring birthmarks or defects?One assumes a certain amount of maturity on the part of people who devote time and energy to a pursuit such as this, and to artists.
This particular posting has made me question that.I figure there are two ways you could respond to this.One would be to take a mature attitude, and admit you did something wrong, and make some kind of amends.The other, which, after reading this is what I expect from you, is to flame me into oblivion. That would be the immature path which your comments have lead me to believe you will pursue.Please prove me wrong.

Mangler · Post by **Mangler** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 4:59 am

Just curious about the comment : "This means he has about the mental and emotional development of a 16 year old." When I was 16 I pretty much knew how life was and had almost all the knowledge I have now. What I'm saying is I don't get how that would be a big disadvantage in life. This isn't intended to make fun of or belittle you or your brother, Just don't get the comment.

Mandingo · Post by **Mandingo** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 6:27 am

Yeah, I gotta agree with Quix. I think the Sagi Sez concerning retarded peoples is pretty funny, if only in it's callousness. Did you hate "There's Something About Mary?" There's a pretty negative portrayal of retarded people in that as well. Southpark? I mean, it's all in how you take it. Personally, I thought it was funny, but then again, I didn't take it as a national crusade against retarded people, either. It's sophmoric humor. Hell, *I* have a reason to speak. I have a good friend who's brother is retarded, and I consider them a good, friendly person. And respect them. And moreso, there's a character in Warp 9 based (very loosely) on me who's retarded. If it doesn't bother me, then it shouldn't bother anyone, really.There's my coupla pennies.

Blackbyrd2 · Post by **Blackbyrd2** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 8:03 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mangler:
...When I was 16 I pretty much knew how life was and had almost all the knowledge I have now. ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The problem with my brother lies in the fact that he is now 43. Imagine being 16 the rest of your life. You already have more knowledge than he does, and more maturity. He has enough knowledge of how life is to realize he got the short end of the stick.
However, this wasn't specifically about my brother. I am not trying to garner any sympathy for him. He's actually better off than a lot of DD kids, like the one in the ad. I just felt that it was wrong of Sagi to make fun of someone's accident of birth.

Blackbyrd2 · Post by **Blackbyrd2** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 8:16 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by mandingo:
Yeah, I gotta agree with Quix. I think the Sagi Sez concerning retarded peoples is pretty funny, if only in it's callousness. Did you hate "There's Something About Mary?" There's a pretty negative portrayal of retarded people in that as well. Southpark? I mean, it's all in how you take it. Personally, I thought it was funny, but then again, I didn't take it as a national crusade against retarded people, either. It's sophmoric humor. Hell, *I* have a reason to speak. I have a good friend who's brother is retarded, and I consider them a good, friendly person. And respect them. And moreso, there's a character in Warp 9 based (very loosely) on me who's retarded. If it doesn't bother me, then it shouldn't bother anyone, really.There's my coupla pennies.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ok, I believe you and Quix are probably right about the apology. Someone who feels that callous won't care what others might think.I want you to know that I don't, or at least I haven't had an issue with the comic, or the shows you mention. You have to remember though, that these are caricatures of various characters. Caricatures are supposed to make fun. Usagi's forum is not a caricature, it is an actual person. Surely you wouldn't find someone poisoning someone's breakfast cereal in real life funny, would you? However, in the context of the comic, it's hilarious.
In the same way, I find Mangler (in the comic) incredibly funny, while a real life Mangler would be someone to feel sorry for. The guys have even used this in one of the strips. Remember when Mangler asked why he was born, and the guys made a joke about it? The last panel showed Mangler with a tear in his eye. This shows they aren't oblivious to the real life situation. Then why would they say something like that irl?
btw, I don't find the misery or misfortune of innocents in real life to be amusing.
If it was in the comic, then yes, the caricature of Sagi's callousness would be funny.
I just find it appalling that someone can actually be that callous in real life.When someone puts as much time an effort into an online comic as these guys do, one expects a certain amount of responsibility and maturity. Maybe I was simply expecting too much.Thanks for responding, and for your input on this.

Blackbyrd2 · Post by **Blackbyrd2** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 8:19 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Quixotic:
...Unless your brother is logging on and checking out Warp 9, I don't see what the problem is. ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It's not about my brother. It's a question of integrity and character. Whether or not someone sees you do something wrong doesn't affect the inherent 'wrongness' of what one does.

Mandingo · Post by **Mandingo** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 9:53 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Blackbyrd2:
 When someone puts as much time an effort into an online comic as these guys do, one expects a certain amount of responsibility and maturity. Maybe I was simply expecting too much.Thanks for responding, and for your input on this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, the tear in the eye strip wasn't written by Usagi or Mofo. That was a guest strip, by Ms. India. And good stuff at that.I'm not going to argue this point anymore, mainly because the post was not originally written towards me, but also because I haven't seen the commercial he is referring to. It sounds like a funny commercial, though.But I still think you were taking something meant in jest and injecting seriousness and debate into it.Anyway, on with the show.
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-BOB- Busta ass sucka punk.

Quixotic · Post by **Quixotic** » Sun Oct 07, 2001 10:00 am

Not to speak for them or anything...but I somehow doubt you'll be getting an apology anytime soon. While it is a shitty deal that your brother is retarded, just because you don't think it's funny, that doesn't mean we can't laugh at it. Unless your brother is logging on and checking out Warp 9, I don't see what the problem is. If you don't like it, just don't read it. But do vote for them on the top 100 webcomic list still.
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Quixotic

Usagi · Post by **Usagi** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 3:12 am

Controversy befalls Warp 9!Before I get started, I want to assure you that I don't go around kicking puppies or pushing retarded kids into oncoming traffic or anything of that nature. That being said, I do think that retards talking shit to each other at the Special Olympics is pretty funny. But, that doesn't mean I run from hospital to hospital pointing and laughing at people with disabilities.I'm gonna take somewhat of a hybrid approach to your predictions of my response. I will admit to no wrong-doing where I feel none took place. However, I also won't come out here and lash out at you as if I thought you were an idiot, either. You've got some valid concerns. However, I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with a lot of what you're saying. While you may have found some of our humor funny, you can't deny that somewhere along the way, there're people who do not. I'd imagine that goths who take themselves way too seriously may not think the character of Ken is very funny. When we did the baby series, we had responses that ranged from crap-in-my-pants funny to you-two-bastards-are-the-sickest-pieces-of-shit-on-the-internet. And surely, there're a handful of bumpy-headed pig-children who would find Mangler offensive to them.I know, I know. You said you don't have a problem with the comic.. You have a problem with comments made my one of its creators. I ask you this, though: What's the difference? I can think of only one and that's the vehicle of the humor. The message is the same. If I had the character of Usagi make those comments, would they be rip-roaring funny? I don't see where your disconnect takes place. I wouldn't write about a gothic sissy-boy if I didn't think the entire concept were funny. I'll concede that the real-life Usagi and Mofo would probably never try to mail a baby.. But, both of us find the concept to be pretty funny. Mostly due to its absurdity.Which brings me to the actual comments in question. Which part's offensive? That I spoke of the Special Olympics in some manner other than heartfelt happiness for the retarded kids realizing their dreams? Or is it just the fact that I find that commercial funny? The commercial's SUPPOSED to be funny. Maybe not in a "Haha! Retards!" way, but funny nonetheless. Surely, I won't make you find the humor in it that I did, but c'mon! Shit talking at the Special Olympics? The absurdity of it is funny in itself. Or was it the "Do retards call other retards retards?" comment? Would that have been funnier if I used fat people? Or stupid people? Or whatever other group it's still okay to make fun of?Do I think it's funny that people are retarded? No. I think it's unfortunate. Do I think that retarded people are funny? Sure, sometimes. I think that non-retarded people are funny, too. If some dude takes a baseball in the nuts, is that funny? That's funny to me. Hell, America's Funniest Home Videos was founded on that belief. Would it be less funny to you if it were a retarded kid who got railed in the chongs? What about if someone trips and falls? I dunno about you, but I laugh. Is it not funny if that person was fat? Or dyslexic? Or a midget? When is it not okay to laugh at misfortune? Is that for you to decide for me? Or me to decide for you? No, it's not.A very smart man once passed along to me this very insightful idiom: "It's always funny until it's you." Or in your case, your brother. But, you get the idea. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>..I know not to take what he says seriously..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well said. Feel free to reply.Peace out.------------------
Usagi.<A HREF="http://www.warp9tohell.com" TARGET=_blank>Warp 9 to Hell</A> - Because the voices in your head tell you to.

Spacemonkee583 · Post by **Spacemonkee583** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 5:12 am

heya, long time reader, first time poster.It seems that the internet is a nice private sanctuary for the people to slander others anonomously. Lets face it, we would rather step on each others faces in the street than give each other the time of day. But that's real life. Here on the internet, with all of our 'lol's and 'btw' and 'wtf' and other nerdish talk we are allowed a medium that somehow resembles something of worth in our society. Which it doesn't so please, no matter if Usagi says retards are funny, or if people disagree with him, NO BODY CARES!!! You are not helping destroy social prejudices here, NO BODY CARES!!! go write a letter to a medium which doesn't boast it's audience as 14 year old losers living in their parents basements.I am aware of my own hypocrises here, so don't think you are smart by pointing them out.

Blackbyrd2 · Post by **Blackbyrd2** » Mon Oct 08, 2001 8:29 am

It also occurs to me that perhaps the column 'Sagi sez' is meant to be 'in character' as opposed to what the writer actually feels or thinks.
I mean that perhaps the column is written as if it were the character in the comic speaking, not the actual person who writes it.
In that case, I may have overreacted.
If that is so, then I know not to take what he says seriously, however, in this case, the writer's sense of humour works much better in the strip, and he should stick to that.Once again, it wasn't the comic I had an issue with.

Blackbyrd2 · Post by **Blackbyrd2** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 1:18 am

Usagi,I want to preface this with a thank you for responding, and also for responding in a well thought out and mature fashion. I think you and I will have to agree to disagree on this subject, and that's ok.
I do, however want to expand on a couple of items you mention and maybe explain my point of view a bit better.First, I agree that there will always be someone, somewhere who will be offended by what you say or draw. The world is just too full of people not to have that happen. When it becomes more people offended than laughing is when I would worry, but I don't think you have reached that stage. Maybe you never will. I hope not.However, there is a major difference in your column and your comic. It's not just the vehicle, unless the character writing the column is the same one that is in the comic, complete with baby-mailing, gun-wielding, buddy-bashing and all.
If you were doing a text version of the comic, it would just be different media, and it would have been funny.
However, you were (presumably) stating your own opinions and points of view.Why is the comic funny, and the column not?Let's say you do a comic that shows Usagi laffing at the commercial you saw. (with some suitable punchline for the end of the comic to make it funny?)
What would be humorous about the comic?
It would be the character, not the subject matter. It would be funny because of how Usagi reacted to the commercial, or possibly because of the consequences of his reaction. Usagi in the strip is a caricature of a character. He is exaggerated and extreme. He is funny because of the things that happen to him and how he reacts to those things, and because of his motivations for doing things.The column, on the other hand, is not an exaggeration, or extreme. (correct me if I am mistaken on this.) It is a reflection of your own point of view and opinions.You talk about America's Funniest Videos;
I don't find those videos to be funny when someone gets hurt through no fault of their own. However, I do laugh when someone gets whapped because of their own stupidity. In those cases, it's not the injury that is funny, but the incredible idiocy of someone who should have known better than to, say, stand on the top rung of a ladder, or try to hold a boat to the dock in a river with their bare hands. Even when these people get hurt, the injuries cause me to have sympathy for them, although I still laugh at their stupidity as one is usually sure that no one ever gets seriously hurt on AFV.Is it ok to laugh at fat people, or stupid people, etc.?
Truly stupid people, (not the ones whose common sense has temporarily deserted them,) are not funny, but sad. (I think that's one of the reasons I have issues watching Jerry Springer..he gets the stupidest people on there, and you just have to pity them, when you aren't feeling the overwhelming urge to reach out and bitchslap em.) <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif">
Same with fat people, midgets, dyslexics, epileptics, Tourettes victims, almost anybody.I am not fat, nor stupid, btw. I have been 30 lbs overweight, and fought to get back to something approaching normalcy, so I can empathize with how difficult it can be, though.
So, maybe my problem is that I too easily put myself in the shoes of others. Or perhaps that you have too difficult a time putting yourself in their shoes.Having said that: There have, however, been a number of comic artists who used misfortune to make black humor. Gahan Wilson springs immediately to mind, but I am sure there are many more who were more blatant.As I said, we'll agree to disagree.I would recommend thinking about why things are funny. It will give you insight into your own comedy as well as other people's.
I read a story once where someone pointed out that all jokes (except puns, which aren't actually 'funny') have a 'victim'. They all poke fun at someone's misfortune. This is almost true. Examine a bunch of jokes and see why they work, and I think you will start to see what I am talking about.This is kind of long for the boards...If you'd care to discuss humor at any greater length, I'd be happy to email.Thanks again for a measured, reasoned response. I hope you get this, as the boards appear to be all messed up.Ciao for now,
BB2

Quixotic · Post by **Quixotic** » Sun Oct 14, 2001 8:04 am

Quoted....."I would recommend thinking about why things are funny. It will give you insight into your own comedy as well as other people's."Personally, I disagree. You should never look too deep into why something's funny. It's a sure way to kill humor in an other wise funny thing. Somethings should not be cut open and looked inside of, for doing so would only release the magic and you would be left with a pile of worthless material."I read a story once where someone pointed out that all jokes (except puns, which aren't actually 'funny') have a 'victim'. They all poke fun at someone's misfortune. This is almost true. Examine a bunch of jokes and see why they work, and I think you will start to see what I am talking about."Again, I disagree. I can think of a tens of jokes without even trying, that don't have "victims". The true secret of humor is not the misfortune of other, but Irony. Irony is the god of humor, the conflict between the expected and the actual result, therein lies humor.Welcome back, forum.
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Quixotic

Micro_chimp · Post by **Micro_chimp** » Sun Oct 14, 2001 9:21 am

i agree once you take out every little thing that might be offencive you end up with mindless sugar coated drivle
well theres my 2 cents

Spacemonkee583 · Post by **Spacemonkee583** » Sun Oct 14, 2001 10:50 am

micro-chimp indeed...there's MY two cents.

Mofo · Post by **Mofo** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 2:08 am

I thought it was, tragedy + time = comedy? And after all, we all know that retards have been around for THOUSANDS of years.But seriously, folks. Even going back to Vaudeville days, there was humor in seeing someone get the shit knocked outta them. Falling over, getting a pie to the face, getting burnt by a buddy, or turned down by a pretty lady. There's a context in which horrible, hurtful things are funny. Mostly, it's when it doesn't happen to you. Guess them's the breaks.------------------
<A HREF="http://www.warp9tohell.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.warp9tohell.com</A> - Comics that bruise.

Blackbyrd2 · Post by **Blackbyrd2** » Thu Oct 18, 2001 3:18 am

Combined response ahead;
Quix, I agree that if you overanalyze humor it takes the funny out of it, but my suggestion was that as a creator of humor (which is work, not magic) that Usagi might benefit, and thus we would benefit by his application of study.
After re-reading my post, I can see where it may look like I was saying that Usagi needed to study humor to make his stuff funny, but I never intended it to sound like that. My suggestion was prompted by a heartfelt intention to help Usagi on his path towards funnier and funnier stuff. I have said several times that I had no issues with the comic, and while I may not have come out and said it, I DO find it very funny.On the tens of jokes you've thought of that have no 'victim', I would be interested in some examples. I am always willing to admit I am wrong. On the other hand, it might be that I didn't explain myself correctly. In either case, I would like to see them, if you don't mind taking the time to share? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mofo:
<snip>...
But seriously, folks. Even going back to Vaudeville days, there was humor in seeing someone get the shit knocked outta them. Falling over, getting a pie to the face, getting burnt by a buddy, or turned down by a pretty lady. There's a context in which horrible, hurtful things are funny. Mostly, it's when it doesn't happen to you. Guess them's the breaks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Absolutely true, Mofo. The Three Stooges built a hugely successful act on that very premise, but I think part of the reason people laughed at it was because they knew that no one was _really_ getting hurt.Um, just in case I haven't been too clear on my current position, I am just enjoying the discussion now, folks. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif"> There's nothing better than a well thought out debate. Hope no one minds my taking the counterpoint?

Blackbyrd2 · Post by **Blackbyrd2** » Thu Oct 18, 2001 3:33 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Quixotic:
<snip>... The true secret of humor is not the misfortune of other, but Irony. Irony is the god of humor, the conflict between the expected and the actual result, therein lies humor.Welcome back, forum.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I almost overlooked this part!
Well said, Quix. Irony is indeed a major player in many aspects of humor.
Btw, the story about there being no victimless humor was just that. A story. It could easily be untrue. I haven't done any studies, nor am I any kind of an expert on humor, however, I had a hard time coming up with a joke that didn't have some kind of 'victim'. That's why I'd like to see your examples.A man walks into a bar, sees a very attractive lady and finally overcomes his shyness enough to walk up to her and ask if he could buy her a drink. She replies in a voice loud enough to be heard by the entire bar, "No I won't sleep with you!"
Crimson-faced he slinks back to his table to hide behind his drink.
After a bit she walks over, and explains that she is a psychology student, doing a study on how people react to embarrassment, and apologizes for her behavior.
He replies, in a voice loud enough for the whole bar to hear, "200 bucks!!???"While she deserves it, this is not victimless humor. There is indeed a certain amount of irony in the way he turns the tables though.ok..educate me.. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif">

Quixotic · Post by **Quixotic** » Fri Oct 19, 2001 6:24 am

Okay, how about:Why did the chicken cross the Road?These 2 Irish Guys Are Lost At Sea In a Rowboat With No Food Or Water. One Day They Find This Bottle Floating In The Water. The First Irish Guy Picks It Up And Opens It. POOF!! Out Comes A Genie. The Genie Gives The Irish Guy a Wish For Freeing Him. The Guy Thinks About It For a Second, Then Says "I Wish This WHOLE Ocean Was Guiness." The Genie Waves His Hands And BLAM! The Two Guys And Their Rowboat Are Now Floating In an Ocean Of Guiness. The Second Irish Guy Looks Around, Then Says To the First One "You Fookin' Idjit! Now We'll Hav' To Piss In The Boat!"Or are the Irish a victim in this joke? I wouldn't say so.A Giraffe Walks Into This Bar And Orders A Beer. The Bartender Gives It To Him And Says, "That'll Be $5.50". The Giraffe Pays And Starts Drinking His Beer. The Bartender Says "Y'know, We Don't Serve Many Giraffes Around Here." The Giraffe Replies, "At $5.50 A Beer, I'm Not Suprised."Or is the bartender a victim?A Priest, Minister and a Rabbi All Die In a Car Crash and Go To Heaven. At The Pearly Gates, St. Peter Asks All of Them The Same Question. "At Your Funeral, What Would You Like Those in Attendence To Say About You?"
The Priest Says "I Would Like To Be Remembered As A Godly Man." The Minister Says "At My Funeral I Want People To Say I Was Always Helpful And Kind To My Fellow Man." The Rabbi Says "Well, At My Funeral, I Want Them To Say "LOOK!! He's Moving!"I don't see any victims.What Do You Call A Dog With No Legs?
It Don't Matter What You Call Him, He Ain't Gonna Come When You Call Anyways.Are No legged Dogs the victim?What Did One Lesbian Frog Say To The Other?
"They're Right!! We DO Taste Like Chicken!"That's six and I've got plenty more, but I think that's enough to show there isn't ALWAYS a victim and humor isn't always about the misfortune of others, plus I'm tired of typing. Oh, and *I* would argue that your example isn't about the misfortune of the two characters, I would say it's about the irony. You expect the guy to be embarrased in the situation, but that's not what happens, actually it's the girl who is.

the riddlin' kid------------------
Quixotic

Blackbyrd2 · Post by **Blackbyrd2** » Sat Oct 20, 2001 3:28 am

Agreed.
There are enough examples here to show that it isn't always about the misfortunes of others, although I would argue that the irishman, the legless dog and the rabbi involve a certain amount of misfortune. I would also have to say that the embarrassment of the woman in my joke is a misfortune, even if it was one which was 'deserved'.
The joke doesn't work without the irony though, and so it supports your position.
The exceptions I mention include misfortune, but is it a necessary ingredient for them to be funny? Doesn't seem so, other than for the setup.
You seem to have made your point, and I admit to being wrong on this.
As I said, it was a story. I guess the idea was needed for the 'twist' in the story to work.
I do think that more jokes than not _involve_ the misfortune of others but it's obvious from your examples that the misfortunes are not what make the jokes funny.New question(s), since you have proven to be so perceptive. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif">
Blond jokes, as well as most ethnic jokes and jokes about a religious persuasion make use of a stereotype for humor.
Now, are they making fun of the person (hair color, race, religion, etc) or are they making fun of the stereotype?
In other words, what is it that makes these funny? If it is the stereotype itself, this would seem to indicate that the people who buy into the stereotype are the ones being laughed at, as opposed to the members of the stereotyped group. Maybe? If THAT is so, it would indicate that all the 'political correctness' nazis have been wrong all this time, and 'politically incorrect' jokes are a way of pointing out the absurdity of stereotypes.On the other hand, while I laugh at Irish jokes, (I am 1/2 Irish,) and have no trouble asking a blond if she minds blond jokes, then telling a few if she likes them, I think a lot of the racist jokes go a little too far. I know they make me uncomfortable nowadays. Is that because they are in fact going too far or because I have been conditioned by the PC atmosphere of today's world? (I'm an old person, and there was a time when anyone and everything was fair game, although there are a lot of jokes I haven't told in years now)I know that some women get very upset by the women bashing jokes that abound in email, although they are also stereotype jokes.
On the other hand, most men don't seem to get too bent about the jokes that turn the tables on them. Why do you think that is?btw, if this gets boring, just let me know, and I'll wander off. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/smile.gif">