RE: (OT/Sensitive) A crisis of conscious

RE: (OT/Sensitive) A crisis of conscious

Postby TwoDifferentSox on Tue Dec 03, 2002 9:44 am

As you might have noticed, this thread is seriously screwed up somehow.
You can though read all till now made answers when you hit the "reply" button and then read the messages that are displayed in the little iframe window, the get shown there but not in th eactual thread.
I tough figured that many interesting things were said there, so I'll copy all till now made answers here into this post, so everyone can see them and reply. I wrote above each one who answered (starting after Elix last multiple post):

<b>Rowan Bristol Posted: 03 Dec 2002 10:02 Post subject: </b>

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It very much is a matter of perspective, shadow.

If you're a teenage palestinian, forbidden to go to school, forced into a curfew, whose watched his best friends shot for throwing a rock at an israeli who was beating a woman, who's watched -airstrikes- on family homes on suspicion of terrorisim, who knows at any time an israeli soldier might pick him to go into a terrorist cell without protection as a human shield for the actual soldiers, I'd wonder why he -wasn't- supposed to hate Israelis and the americans who finance him.

What if you're an afghani youth, forced to choose between sheparding, military service with your warlord, or heroin growing in order to survive. Say you choose the morally acceptable option, and while coming back with your flock, you watch a precision bombing of your villiage because some rival warlord told a SpecWar guy with a laser spotter that your village hosted Al Quaeda members. I'd wonder why I wasn't supposed to hate americans.

Now let's take a look at faith for a moment....

I'm a teenage african american in the south, and ten men in white robes have chosen to beat the smack out of me for associating with a white woman. These are members of the Knights of the Royal Gardenia...A Christian organization.

I'm sorry this conversation has riled me so. I worked for a company that was -entirely- muslim. I along with 2 others were the only non-muslims. I learned about the variety of islam, as people were members of different groups. Some followed Aga Khan, a cailiph, others were 'mainstream' muslim. All were kind, considerate, and tolerant of those unlike themselves. All of us were weeping when we gathered in the conference room to watch the second building fall. We were told by the CEO, a muslim, to go to our houses of worship and pray. We formed groups to protect the muslim women who had to go out into a sea of fear and hate.

You say antiterrorism training shows that the Koran is a hate filled book. I -dare- you to look at the bible through the eyes of an antiterrorist guide. You will see depictions of Genocide, barbarism and savage brutality alll in the name of a hungry god that demands blood sacrifice. Not the faith you practice you say? Of -course- not. But if I wanted you to hate Christians just by using the bible, I'd have you foaming at the mouth.

I want you to take a look at the face of the 'enemy' very carefully. The enemy consists of cells of different isolated groups. To equate Al Quaeda with Islam is to equate the IRA with Catholicism or the KLAN with protestantism. To say what the terrorists are doing is in full accordance with true Islam is to say that the Church of Jesus Christ Christian is in accordance with true Christianity.

You may say 'but christians aren't the ones with bombs strapped to their bodies'. Not in these nations. The christians are the ones with B-2s, Apaches, AR-15s, M-1s. The christians are the ones that watched as warlords put their rivals in steel boxes and left them to bake in the sun. Christians taught those same people how deep to bury the bodies so that inspectors wouldn't find out. Thank god for forensic archaeology.

There are millions of muslims who live their lives, pray fervently, and watch the television in horror as some faction does something new. Less than a thousand people are determining how the world views a significant percentage of the planet. They listen as they hear that colleges have banned the reading of their holy text because it's 'the religion of the enemy'. They have to walk through airports praying that some bigot isn't going to freak out and they'll be detained without cause -in their own country-.

Why shouldn't we hate muslims? For the same reason we shouldn't hate Russians or Chinese. For the same reason we shouldn't hate Japanese or Germans. For the same reason we shouldn't hate Koreans or Vietnamese. For the same reason we shouldn't hate the Spanish or the British. For the same reason we shouldn't hate African Americans because of Jeff Fort or Irish because of Brendan McKenna.

There's a lot of evil in the world, Shadow. Please let knowledge, compassion and understanding keep you fom adding to it. It's all that Peter, Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew, Simon, Thaddeus, and James of Alphaeus, wish of you. And I'm certain their master would ask the same.


<b>Crash Posted: 03 Dec 2002 10:35 Post subject: Re: (OT/Sensitive) A crisis of conscious </b>

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ShadowFox wrote:
I just don't know anymore. It seems like a matter of survival anymore. That if we don't contain and stop islam that it will destroy us all. Maybe one of you can give me a reason to change my mind.

SF



Shadowfox, I understand your frustration and anger, and I think I understand better than some where it comes from. There are two levels being addressed in this thread, and that is sure to cause some confusion. There is a religious aspect, and a defense aspect.

Just to give you a quick answer, yes, there are reasons to not hate all Muslims, or even any Muslims. Christ teaches us to "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" I think the important question is not the worthiness or unworthiness of different forms of Islam, but how your own faith tells you to act. I don't belive in moral relativism, and I think that Islam is wrong about many things, but that doesn't change how I should try to deal with Muslims.

That said, on the defense aspect, I think we SHOULD vigorously defend our country against clear threats, such as terrorism in all forms, be it foreign or home-based. You know, if a Muslim hates me, or this country, but he doesn't DO anything with that hatred, I don't really care; it's the ones who DO lash out at us that I want to see stopped. And force is not the way to stop Islam; containment will not prevent the more virulent forms from creating willing martyrs with which to attack us.

And there ARE countries which are predominantly Islamic that are improving. In a grand fit of irony, I have to point to Libya here... Quaddafi has made great strides in building a secular society, but only through rigid fascist control... *shrugs* Okay, so it's not a very good example...

Elix wrote:
Of course the military wants you prejudiced against "the enemy"; there are less moral qualms about killing someone you hate. >>snip<< but I'm critical about the translation. What was the aim of this translation and publication, and could that have influenced any editorial or translational changes on the text to shape the reader's view?



*beats head against wall* Okay, first off, if you're looking for propaganda in this situation, the US military is not the place to find it. Secondly, and I dearly hope not to offend you, but if you can't trust the translation of the Koran sitting on the shelf of a University bookstore in CANADA to be neutral or even pro-Koran, then....
Well, look, if you want to add in all those caveats and insinuations, you can undermine anyone's argument. And editorial soft-soaping can't come close to creating glaring statements that run along the lines of "Kill Infidels. Kill Infidels. Kill More Infidels." Remember, that book in your bookstore has probably undergone a peer review, so it's not going to be a wild fantasy.

Rico wrote:
Personally, the only religion I've seen that actively practices religious tolerance are the Eclectic Wicca.


*laughs* Rico, it's kinda hard to exclude ANYone when your own beliefs are a hodgepodge of whatever conveniently allows you to live your life without answering to a higher moral authority! Eclectic, indeed!
Rico wrote:
*Add Crashes comment about change coming here *



... Rats. I'm too tired to come up with a good one. *shakes fist* You've won this time, Underwood, but next time... NEXT time, MUAHAhahahahahahahahaaaaaaa!

<b>TwoDifferentSox Posted: 03 Dec 2002 11:37 Post subject:
</b>
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The terrorists useing islam as excuse to punish non-believers mostly have totally different reasons to do so. It doesn't root in "the koran says we shall extinguish them all" but more in problems in the named countries, poverty, surpression, starvation, injustice (and not always the western countries are all innocent in haveing their share of the blame for it).
Just look at the numbers: there are about 1.033 billion muslims in the world, and they are supposed to be all terrorists?
Very unlikely.
Very much too often a group gets judged by the worst behaviour of individuals.

Like I noticed that I started to develop a certain dislike for christianity lately in response to actions and events I wittnessed, but know not to be hasty with that, because I am certain that it's nothing to generalize, right?
*looks at the christian fraction of the board*


<b>LAGtheNoggin Posted: 03 Dec 2002 15:58 Post subject: </b>

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Jabeezus, that's the most involuntry posting I've seen o.@


Soooo, let's see, where to throw my two pennys worth. Humm, why not dislike Muslims? They're the ones in the media etc etc, they're the ones you always hear about...

Well, for one, it's a religion like any other. All religions can be used as an excuse to do dreadful things, Islam is just more accepted in places where poverty and whatnot are more apparent and violence is more likely. Of course, this isn't always the rule, there's a big ole' conflict of beliefs going on in Northern Ireland, and they're the same bloody religion! Now on face value that's silly, but it goes deeper, Protestants have done bad things to Catholics in the past and visa versa... If you're going to hate muslims, then why stop there? Down with Christianity! And Judaism! And all religions that have been used as an excuse to fight!

And of course you'll see that that's just rather silly. Humans are quite naturally violent, we'll keep on doing odd things even if there aren't any religions. (By Humans I'm referring to a small percentage, there's always one no matter where you go)


As for Muslims themselves, well, my College has a fair amount, about 40% of the students I'd say. It's hard to think all Muslims want the western world to burn while one asks me to help them with a Bio-chemistry question.

And finally! Name a country that's not steeped in conflict and is Islamic; Mayalsia. Admitedly there's a bit going on but overall it's peaceful. [Malaysia, big island; Singapore is the tiny dot off south of it, and if you don't know where Singapore is... errr, get a map...]


<b> IndigoMoon Posted: 03 Dec 2002 16:29 Post subject: </b>

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W.M.Y.L.G. Joe wrote:
Dude, I know these group of guys who go around destroying architecture, and stuff on the streets, even swimming pools. I mean without even a second thought they just totally deface things and sometimes take pictures and videotape of it! This is actually like a whole society supposedly and they're all across the world. Some countries even build public places JUST so these people can do these things. Encouraging vandalism??? How could a country support such a thing? They call them skay-tuh-boor-durz and it sounds to me like they're the ultimate evil in todays age. These malicious cretins must be stopped and killed. If you see one, you'll know them by their beady eyes. Make sure and hurt them as much as you can! Stop them from continuing their acts of careless indifference!



*cracks all up*
We all know whose side you're on, you malicious cretin!

There was a whole big deal in my tiny hometown about everywhere being declared a 'no skateboarding zone' by the mayor. People wrote all these articles for the newspaper about how skateboarders are delinquents and such, it was rediculous. That was when my friend Jack and his crew started wearing 'skateboarding is not a crime' teeshirts every day. Hooray for civil disobediance! On the upside, their protests prompted the city to pour concrete for a skate park, but it looked pretty crappish to me (though, admittedly, I am untrained in the art).

Muslims? Er.. I really don't know enough to add to this discussion. However, I do firmly believe that there are both good and evil people claiming to belong in various religions (and that mine, Christianity, most definitely has its share). There are good muslims and bad; there are also the confused, those who actually think they are interpreting their holy texts in the proper way, but are just getting from them what they want to get. This is true in every religion.
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Postby ZOMBIE USER 7262 on Tue Dec 03, 2002 10:32 am

Extracted from Toby's encapsulating post:
Crash said:
*beats head against wall* Okay, first off, if you're looking for propaganda in this situation, the US military is not the place to find it. Secondly, and I dearly hope not to offend you, but if you can't trust the translation of the Koran sitting on the shelf of a University bookstore in CANADA to be neutral or even pro-Koran, then....
(snip)
Remember, that book in your bookstore has probably undergone a peer review, so it's not going to be a wild fantasy.

No, Crash, you didn't offend me.

However, that book is an American publication. It's just being sold in Canada. (The American publishing industry is ten times the size of Canada. 80% of my textbooks are American.)

I am not paranoid. I also haven't checked the copyright date on the book, but I'm still very critical of a translation without having seen any other or being able to read the original.

My turn to hope I don't offend you, Crash. I'm a Creative Writing student with a fluent command of two languages and a basic grasp of a third. Translation is one of the trickiest things to do in writing, especially in holy texts. Everyone has biases whether or not they admit to it, or even can see it. I recognize I have biases, but that's beside the point. You say that the book has probably undergone a peer review. It's bound under the same design as the publishing house's textbooks, so, yes, it will have undergone a peer review. However, I want to know who was on that peer review. I'm sure that at least one muslim was on it, but I don't know that for a fact. If that peer review was staffed by a bunch of hate-mongers, the translator could have done anything. If the peers were all fanatical muslims who do secretly hope that America falls to Islam, that's another extreme altogether. (Edit: It was only after I posted this message that I realized that both sentences together are semi-redundant.)

Perhaps it's an excellent translation, and has no bent towards influencing non-muslims for or against Islam. I don't know. I haven't read the book yet. I'm just fairly critical on opinions about Islam post-9/11, because I watched a lot of normally level-headed people turn completely stupid because the media hyped them up to that level of ignorance. (A certain friend of mine in Ohio asked me why Bush just didn't drop a nuke on the Middle East and solve the whole problem that way. This is the kind of stupidity I mean. He was dead serious, too.)

As for the US military issue, I don't know enough to continue my line of argument. But I'm still critical, for lack of having first-hand knowledge or concrete evidence in either direction. Call it one of my biases.
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Re: RE: (OT/Sensitive) A crisis of conscious

Postby Rowan Bristol on Tue Dec 03, 2002 11:31 am

Rowan Bristol wrote:
<b>Rowan Bristol Posted: 03 Dec 2002 10:02 Post subject: </b>


Now let's take a look at faith for a moment....

I'm a teenage african american in the south, and ten men in white robes have chosen to beat the smack out of me for associating with a white woman. These are members of the Knights of the Royal Gardenia...A Christian organization.


This should have read:

Now let's take a look at faith for a moment....

What if you're a teenage african american in the south, and ten men in white robes have chosen to beat the smack out of you for associating with a white woman. These are members of the Knights of the White Camelia...A Christian organization.

I apologize to all Klan members who read it and were upset at my mangling of the name of their order. I'm sorry.
Silly little fool
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in 5-7-5
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Re: RE: (OT/Sensitive) A crisis of conscious

Postby IndigoMoon on Tue Dec 03, 2002 11:43 am

Rowan Bristol wrote:
Rowan Bristol wrote:
<b>Rowan Bristol Posted: 03 Dec 2002 10:02 Post subject: </b>


Now let's take a look at faith for a moment....

I'm a teenage african american in the south, and ten men in white robes have chosen to beat the smack out of me for associating with a white woman. These are members of the Knights of the Royal Gardenia...A Christian organization.


This should have read:

Now let's take a look at faith for a moment....

What if you're a teenage african american in the south, and ten men in white robes have chosen to beat the smack out of you for associating with a white woman. These are members of the Knights of the White Camelia...A Christian organization.

I apologize to all Klan members who read it and were upset at my mangling of the name of their order. I'm sorry.


Gardenia! *giggles* That was cute Rowan, I know I'd hate for you to offend those rediculously evil hatemongers!

Like I said, misrepresentations of faith abound. A Christian organization.. *snort*
*Indigo*

Lord, you are my lover,
My longing,
My flowing stream,
My sun,
And I am your reflection.

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Postby W.M.Y.L.G. Joe on Tue Dec 03, 2002 11:54 am

Hooray for civil disobediance!


Darn tootin'.

And yes, skateparks are usually rather badly built because they weren't even designed by someone who skates. Really, though, I don't mind most of them. Having grown into skating mostly through the vein of street skating, you make do with what you have and be happy with it. This said, I'm ecstatic just to have parks. NOW, it's when the parks make you do certain things like pay fines for not wearing pads or allow scooterers and bikers in that I begin to complain. And sometimes, the design of the park really IS horrible enough it's no fun to skate.

But I'm way off topic. Sorry. I was feeling very sardonic last night.
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Postby Crash on Tue Dec 03, 2002 1:21 pm

Elix wrote:However, that book is an American publication. It's just being sold in Canada. (The American publishing industry is ten times the size of Canada. 80% of my textbooks are American.)

:) Glad I didn't offend, Elix, and none taken on my end.
Well, that was a dig more at the fact that Canada is more liberal than the US, and Universities (who tend to exert an influence on the books sold in their stores) are usually much more liberal than society in general, at least here in North America. :) At least, that was MY experience in college, after having diversity for the sake of political appeasement and superficial image polishing (rather than academic excellence) jammed down my throat for five years...
Elix wrote:I am not paranoid. >>snip<< However, I want to know who was on that peer review. I'm sure that at least one muslim was on it, but I don't know that for a fact. If that peer review was staffed by a bunch of hate-mongers, the translator could have done anything.


Yes, but even if you knew who was on the review committee, how will that help? What do you know of their background? And even if you DO find that info out, how are you to know that it wasn't planted, or altered without their knowledge by insidious manipulative forces, just to trick you? ....
Okay, I apologize for the sarcasm, but I want to make a point that the same kind of doubt you heap on the facts that I have supplied can be just as readily applied to your OWN. And that does begin to look suspiciously like paranoia, when you seem to invent reasons to doubt and dismiss prevalent and widely accepted facts. Or, at least, that your biases extend farther than you previously admit.

I mean, if you could offer substantive proof of any of these doubts, then I would be willing to grant them merit. As it is, this debate resembles a smear campaign... Nitpicking and minutae dilute, misdirect, and ultimately nullify a debate by turning it into a three-ring circus of one-upmanship.


Elix wrote:As for the US military issue, I don't know enough to continue my line of argument. But I'm still critical, for lack of having first-hand knowledge or concrete evidence in either direction. Call it one of my biases.


:) Okay, good enough for me. All I will add is that, in my experience, members of the US Armed Forces are much more aware of why this country was formed, what it's ideals are, why they need to be defended. Through long association with members of the Air Force (I was an Air Force brat), as well as the Marines and the Army, I have come to see that they are highly motivated and don't need the kind of political indoctrination you are suspicious of. *sighs* So, I suppose that's a little bit of a sore spot, but I'm not going to yell and shout at you... I just have a very different perspective, since both my parents were in the military, as well as many of their friends. You have just as much right to your opinion as I do to mine.
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Postby ZOMBIE USER 10068 on Tue Dec 03, 2002 3:45 pm

Thanks for all that cut n' paste TDS. My comp seems to be havin trouble with the whole board, and especially that tread.

First, let me say that I'm by no means a christian apoligizer. The crusades contained some of the worst attrocities of that era. Also theres the Inquisition, the witch trails, 'conversion' of native peoples, ect. No religion short of tibetian buddisim can claim not to have blood on it's hands.

Rowan said
It very much is a matter of perspective, shadow.
Very true

I'm sorry this conversation has riled me so. I worked for a company that was -entirely- muslim
Understood, I realized this would be a touchy thing. That's why I asked gloria for permission before I posted it. My first thoughts on 9-11 was what the backlash would be against arab-americans. I went through marine boot camp with 2 muslim brother, and would trust them in combat. It is nice to see though that we can all talk about such a sensitive topic as this and not resort to name calling or labeling.

Please let knowledge, compassion and understanding keep you fom adding to it.
I'm trying.....


Crash said
I think we SHOULD vigorously defend our country against clear threats, such as terrorism in all forms
*sigh* A big source of frustration there. We're willing to do everything except look for terrorists. Because political leaders are too scared of being accused of not being politically correct.

Lag wrote
Name a country that's not steeped in conflict and is Islamic; Mayalsia.
Ummm, not quite. There are travel advisories for westerners not to go there because of the large number of people kidnapped for ransom by islamic groups. Not to mention the growing number of incidences of people being strirred into a religious ferver then going out and burning non-muslim buisnesses, churches, homes and killing randomly along the way. You don't hear about it as much because americans arn't the main ones being killed currently.

Elix said
I'm just fairly critical on opinions about Islam post-9/11.... asked me why Bush just didn't drop a nuke on the Middle East and solve the whole problem that way. This is the kind of stupidity I mean. He was dead serious, too.
Unfortunatly most of mine pre-date 9/11, it just reenforced them. Yes, he is stupid. If one person starts throwing them, everyone will, and we'll all be dead. Besides, even 1 nuke would galvanized the entire islamic world and possibly others against us.


Many people have jumped up to point out christianites many transgrestions, and their correct. But that's not the point of this. I'm wondering things like why I shouldn't be wary if a mosque was being built in my neigborhood. Or why I shouldn't be neverous of a muslim gets on my bus (just ask the Israelies about that one), or why I shouldn't ask to be put on a different flight if a group of saudis are getting on as well.

As for the defense issue, such a large and widespread waryness comes from our changing technological ability. I don't want to know that I stood by doing nothing the day a dirty bomb goes off in the middle of LA. It's very easy for citizens of other countries to point fingers and preach, when it's not them that madmen and murderers have pledged to wipe from the earth.

God bless america. God protect Israel.


P.S.
W.M.Y.L.G. Joe said
They call them skay-tuh-boor-durz
O we have plans of you broaders, and your little dogs too! Muhahaha!! :wink:
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Postby ZOMBIE USER 7262 on Tue Dec 03, 2002 4:28 pm

Crash wrote:I want to make a point that the same kind of doubt you heap on the facts that I have supplied can be just as readily applied to your OWN. And that does begin to look suspiciously like paranoia, when you seem to invent reasons to doubt and dismiss prevalent and widely accepted facts. Or, at least, that your biases extend farther than you previously admit.

I mean, if you could offer substantive proof of any of these doubts, then I would be willing to grant them merit. As it is, this debate resembles a smear campaign... Nitpicking and minutae dilute, misdirect, and ultimately nullify a debate by turning it into a three-ring circus of one-upmanship.

One moment of oneupmanship. I never said that my word was gospel, and therefore invincibly right. You're free to pick my stuff apart, too. :)

All I can say with the inventing of reasons or dismissal of widely-accepted facts is, things are seen differently in Canada, and I'm not sure what these facts you allude to are. I'm not being snotty; I really don't know what you're talking about.

The simple fact is that I'm leery of trusting the American government, and by extension the military. If this is paranoia and a bias, then that's what it is. I do have a bias against the American government, but this isn't the thread to discuss it in. (It's also fairly pointless, really.)

as an update, I bought the book. I didn't pay too much attention to it beforehand. It's published by Oxford University Press, and the original translation was printed in 1955... so this is a hardly contemporary translation. I think I can give this translation the benefit of the doubt. I still haven't read it, yet.
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Postby W.M.Y.L.G. Joe on Tue Dec 03, 2002 4:29 pm

God bless america. God protect Israel.


Thank you! I've felt for a while like other countries need more blessing than we do, but other people never understood me.
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Postby Crash on Tue Dec 03, 2002 5:33 pm

Elix wrote:All I can say with the inventing of reasons or dismissal of widely-accepted facts is, things are seen differently in Canada, and I'm not sure what these facts you allude to are. I'm not being snotty; I really don't know what you're talking about.


.... Okay, not really facts per se, but more the statements I made. *shrugs* Call it a sweeping generalization. I was thinking of the "big picture" and didn't watch my semantics. And that's a fact, Jack. :) And I don't see you being snotty here, don't worry.
And as for not trusting our government, I suppose I can't blame you... we have serious... issues with your gov'ts immigration and border security policies, as do some of your own officials.

Elix wrote:as an update, I bought the book. I didn't pay too much attention to it beforehand. It's published by Oxford University Press, and the original translation was printed in 1955... so this is a hardly contemporary translation. I think I can give this translation the benefit of the doubt. I still haven't read it, yet.


*LOL* Score one for academic inertia! :D
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Postby Rico Underwood on Tue Dec 03, 2002 6:30 pm

*only adds one thing*

Don't comment of fragmented bits, Crash. It makes you look like a politican. ;)
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Postby Rowan Bristol on Wed Dec 04, 2002 7:33 am

ShadowFox wrote: I'm wondering things like why I shouldn't be wary if a mosque was being built in my neigborhood. Or why I shouldn't be neverous of a muslim gets on my bus (just ask the Israelies about that one), or why I shouldn't ask to be put on a different flight if a group of saudis are getting on as well.



Shadow, I think the only way you're going to be put at ease is to take a step few are willing to go. It's a step that the catholic church waited over a thousand years to do, and few people in authority today are willing to do.

I think you need to go to a mosque, and talk. You are already taking big steps by talking with us. But frankly, the bulk of us are christian. THe others on this board have non-muslim leanings. You're not going to find your answers here. We have christians, wiccians, 'enlightened', agnostic and Skateboarders here, along with a -lot- of mutts . No muslims.

You need to seek out places of study for muslims in your area, explain your situation, and begin dialouge. It's the only way you're going to find answers that you can't dismiss. We're not on the other side of the fence you're looking at.


I do have a different perspective than most americans, I'll admit. because of my professional jobs, and because of my time in college security. -Every- muslim I've ever encountered is well off, extraordinarily well educated, and looking for more. Sadly, in answer to one of your questions: Why are muslim nations such pits of strife and ignorance? The answer is that the very best of those nations have -fled- to the united states or Great Britian to have their talents put to good use. If you want to gain a perspective about islam that isn't hateful, I suggest you talk with some people in Hewlett Packard, Dell, Microsoft, and Intel. You should go to the labs of some of the greatest universities of this country. You shold go and pour through the lists of doctoral candidates of the top colleges. What you will find is a surprising number of educated, upper middle-to-wealthy muslims that have been happy americans for some time now. Their parents and grandparents slaved away to give their kids the blend of opportunity and piety that they could only find in america.

My employer was a multi-millionare. His partners, also his brothers, were some of the most educated men I have ever known. Their father: Drove a cab for 30 years to get his wife and children from India to here. One brother's boyfriend teaches on cultural and religious discourse. If you like, I can get you connected with him. He's syrian christian, and would be happy to talk with you on a level that this board cannot.

Why shouldn't you be afraid if a mosque is built in your neighborhood? I'll tell you. It means that a group of wealthy, educated muslims who have been living in your town for years have gathered the funds together from their own work as doctors, lawyers, scientists, businessmen and engineers to create a space for people to worship and learn. And in the case of learn, that means you as well. Islam is not a closed faith. This isn't poring into the mysteries of the Hasidim, the Masons, or even parts of the Catholic faith. You want to know about islam? Ask a muslim. They will be deilghted to tell you.

A lot of your anxiety seems to stem from the islamic nations themselves. Keep in mind there is a difference. Out of the islamic terrorist cells in this country, there are precious few native (born here) american islamics who are part of them. THe bulk of these groups gain their members from people already raised and trained elsewhere. Look at the student visa issue involved in 9-11. There is a good book analyzing the misery of the islamic nations in the modern world that I recommend. It's called What Went Wrong: Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response by Bernard Lewis. Dr. Lewis explores the history of Islam from its beginnings and its dominance as the -pre-eminent- world power in the middle ages to its decline and fall in the modern era.

Keep in mind that this is a culture that is responsible for much of modern civilization. Most of the great discoveries of the rennaisance stemmed from pre-existing Muslim knowledge. This book effectively charts why the bulk of current islamic nations are third world countries, and the painted barbarians who got their jumpstart from islamic knowledge are currently dominant.

This book is a positive statement on what the islamic nations were and could have been, as well as a good showcase as to what made western civilization work and develop.

Terrorism is an act of desperation, not of faith. I implore you, shadow, to take this quest past the realm of this very limited board and to the face of the people you're concerned about. It is the bravest thing you will ever do. As a soldier, being shot or blown up means very little compared to the bravery such a journey would require. I have the utmost faith in you. Your questions bespeak a test God has placed before you. You have my prayers.

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Postby Crash on Wed Dec 04, 2002 8:36 am

Rico Underwood wrote:Don't comment of fragmented bits, Crash.

Ah, but it makes addressing specific points that much easier.

Rico Underwood wrote: It makes you look like a politican. ;)

*looks indignant* Now that's just not nice! :D
Would that be because I don't go out of my way to incite and incense the masses, like SOME I could mention? :wink:
<img ALIGN=left SRC="http://images.deviantart.com/large/indyart/indymisc/My_Mo_Better_Avatar.gif">R. Lee Ermey's Strategy Tip of the Day:
Don't mess with Sparta. Watch:

Your ass is mine, Socrates!
Get back! Yield! Yield!


The Crash Pad-- It's Too Late For Helmets.
The big question is... Once you've had weasel sticks, can you ever go back?
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Double Postin' Like It's 2002...

Postby Crash on Wed Dec 04, 2002 8:40 am

*grits teeth* ... hey, eight more, and I'll hold the new record!
Last edited by Crash on Wed Dec 04, 2002 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
<img ALIGN=left SRC="http://images.deviantart.com/large/indyart/indymisc/My_Mo_Better_Avatar.gif">R. Lee Ermey's Strategy Tip of the Day:
Don't mess with Sparta. Watch:

Your ass is mine, Socrates!
Get back! Yield! Yield!


The Crash Pad-- It's Too Late For Helmets.
The big question is... Once you've had weasel sticks, can you ever go back?
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Postby ZOMBIE USER 10068 on Wed Dec 04, 2002 3:25 pm

Rowan Bristol wrote: Terrorism is an act of desperation, not of faith. I implore you, shadow, to take this quest past the realm of this very limited board and to the face of the people you're concerned about.


I'm not quite ready to take that step yet, maybe sometime in the near future. Although this isn't the only place I've posed this question (hence the slowness of my replies). As I've said before, the confusion has yet to win out, and I'll keep fighting it.
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Postby Rowan Llwellyn on Wed Dec 04, 2002 5:13 pm

There really isn't much I can state here that hasn't been already so eloquently said by others.

In fact, I am posting this more for Elix than for the original statements that created this thread.

The translation you bought was first published in 1955? That means it's likely to not be biased by current events. However, that does not necessarily mean it is an accurate translation. I can't really offer any suggestions on where to find an accurate tranlastion, but one way of corroborating what is said in that version is to perhaps seek out two or three other translations. You may even be able to do that just by some internet searches.

Thus, armed with multiple versions, you should be able to get a better overall picture of what the Koran tells and teaches.

The same, really, should be done with any translation of religious texts. God, whichever one you want to name, wishes us to have faith. I don't recall any of them specifying that that faith should be blind.
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Postby Rowan Llwellyn on Wed Dec 04, 2002 5:19 pm

There really isn't much I can state here that hasn't been already so eloquently said by others.

In fact, I am posting this more for Elix than for the original statements that created this thread.

The translation you bought was first published in 1955? That means it's likely to not be biased by current events. However, that does not necessarily mean it is an accurate translation. I can't really offer any suggestions on where to find an accurate tranlastion, but one way of corroborating what is said in that version is to perhaps seek out two or three other translations. You may even be able to do that just by some internet searches.

Thus, armed with multiple versions, you should be able to get a better overall picture of what the Koran tells and teaches.

The same, really, should be done with any translation of religious texts. God, whichever one you want to name, wishes us to have faith. I don't recall any of them specifying that that faith should be blind.
Rowan Llwellyn

Who, deep in her heart, really is a good squirrel.
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Postby Afflicted on Thu Dec 05, 2002 7:28 am

(Lag wrote
Name a country that's not steeped in conflict and is Islamic; Mayalsia.
Ummm, not quite. There are travel advisories for westerners not to go there because of the large number of people kidnapped for ransom by islamic groups. Not to mention the growing number of incidences of people being strirred into a religious ferver then going out and burning non-muslim buisnesses, churches, homes and killing randomly along the way. You don't hear about it as much because americans arn't the main ones being killed currently. )

Er, I know I haven't been posting here for a while, but I think I should say something here since I'm FROM Malaysia.
One: There are no islamic groups out to kidnap foreigners in Malaysia. None!
Two: Unlike Indonesia, there are NO incidences of mass violent reliogios Muslim fervor (church burning, whatever). There is actually a practical reason for this; although Malaysia is a Muslim country by name, it's really multiracial. About 55-60% are Malays (thus by law, Muslim. Yes, it sucks), about 30-45% Chinese Malaysians and the rest are multiple races (mostly Indian). These figures are estimates only of course, but it is a worthy note that there is religious freedom in Malaysia (apart from some nits like if you marry a Muslim you must convert and once a Muslim, always a Muslim), and it's quite safe to say that more than 90% of non-Malays are not Muslim.

Three(long): Malaysia is a peaceful country by nature due to practical reasons- it's much too small a country for war (we've gotten trodden here and there by a whole slew of people in history) and also due to the importance of keeping racial harmony-very important theme back home.
Sometimes, churches can have a little trouble getting new buildings put up, but that's the extent of it (in fact if you look at the sheer number of new churches you wouldn't think there are be problems really). Religious freedom is also an important theme due to sheer amount of people in different religions(if somewhat biased in certain respects like those already mentioned).

Four: The news back home is pretty biased of course. Saddam is somewhat liked by the Muslim population (Chinese population not sure what to think, but some of us don't like him), so when they receive news of possible war for example there's no mention of why America says they want to attack. I'm living in UK right now. As to the people's reaction to September's tradgedy, officially the main political leaders support extinguishing terrorism and reducing religious fanatics- the Muslims are kind of mixed about the issue I think, but I wasn't around to check.

Please don't make assumptions if you don't know- you could always ask.
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Postby Afflicted on Thu Dec 05, 2002 7:32 am

(Lag wrote
Name a country that's not steeped in conflict and is Islamic; Mayalsia.
Ummm, not quite. There are travel advisories for westerners not to go there because of the large number of people kidnapped for ransom by islamic groups. Not to mention the growing number of incidences of people being strirred into a religious ferver then going out and burning non-muslim buisnesses, churches, homes and killing randomly along the way. You don't hear about it as much because americans arn't the main ones being killed currently. )

Er, I know I haven't been posting here for a while, but I think I should say something here since I'm FROM Malaysia.
One: There are no islamic groups out to kidnap foreigners in Malaysia. None!
Two: Unlike Indonesia, there are NO incidences of mass violent reliogios Muslim fervor (church burning, whatever). There is actually a practical reason for this; although Malaysia is a Muslim country by name, it's really multiracial. About 55-60% are Malays (thus by law, Muslim. Yes, it sucks), about 30-45% Chinese Malaysians and the rest are multiple races (mostly Indian). These figures are estimates only of course, but it is a worthy note that there is religious freedom in Malaysia (apart from some nits like if you marry a Muslim you must convert and once a Muslim, always a Muslim), and it's quite safe to say that more than 90% of non-Malays are not Muslim.

Three(long): Malaysia is a peaceful country by nature due to practical reasons- it's much too small a country for war (we've gotten trodden here and there by a whole slew of people in history) and also due to the importance of keeping racial harmony-very important theme back home.
Sometimes, churches can have a little trouble getting new buildings put up, but that's the extent of it (in fact if you look at the sheer number of new churches you wouldn't think there are be problems really). Religious freedom is also an important theme due to sheer amount of people in different religions(if somewhat biased in certain respects like those already mentioned).

Four: The news back home is pretty biased of course. Saddam is somewhat liked by the Muslim population (Chinese population not sure what to think, but some of us don't like him), so when they receive news of possible war for example there's no mention of why America says they want to attack. I'm living in UK right now. As to the people's reaction to September's tradgedy, officially the main political leaders support extinguishing terrorism and reducing religious fanatics- the Muslims are kind of mixed about the issue I think, but I wasn't around to check.

Please don't make assumptions if you don't know- you could always ask.
Afflicted
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Postby Afflicted on Thu Dec 05, 2002 7:36 am

(Lag wrote
Name a country that's not steeped in conflict and is Islamic; Mayalsia.
Ummm, not quite. There are travel advisories for westerners not to go there because of the large number of people kidnapped for ransom by islamic groups. Not to mention the growing number of incidences of people being strirred into a religious ferver then going out and burning non-muslim buisnesses, churches, homes and killing randomly along the way. You don't hear about it as much because americans arn't the main ones being killed currently. )

Er, I know I haven't been posting here for a while, but I think I should say something here since I'm FROM Malaysia.
One: There are no islamic groups out to kidnap foreigners in Malaysia. None!
Two: Unlike Indonesia, there are NO incidences of mass violent reliogios Muslim fervor (church burning, whatever). There is actually a practical reason for this; although Malaysia is a Muslim country by name, it's really multiracial. About 55-60% are Malays (thus by law, Muslim. Yes, it sucks), about 30-45% Chinese Malaysians and the rest are multiple races (mostly Indian). These figures are estimates only of course, but it is a worthy note that there is religious freedom in Malaysia (apart from some nits like if you marry a Muslim you must convert and once a Muslim, always a Muslim), and it's quite safe to say that more than 90% of non-Malays are not Muslim.

Three(long): Malaysia is a peaceful country by nature due to practical reasons- it's much too small a country for war (we've gotten trodden here and there by a whole slew of people in history) and also due to the importance of keeping racial harmony-very important theme back home.
Sometimes, churches can have a little trouble getting new buildings put up, but that's the extent of it (in fact if you look at the sheer number of new churches you wouldn't think there are be problems really). Religious freedom is also an important theme due to sheer amount of people in different religions(if somewhat biased in certain respects like those already mentioned).

Four: The news back home is pretty biased of course. Saddam is somewhat liked by the Muslim population (Chinese population not sure what to think, but some of us don't like him), so when they receive news of possible war for example there's no mention of why America says they want to attack. I'm living in UK right now. As to the people's reaction to September's tradgedy, officially the main political leaders support extinguishing terrorism and reducing religious fanatics- the Muslims are kind of mixed about the issue I think, but I wasn't around to check.

Please don't make assumptions if you don't know- you could always ask.
Afflicted
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