(OT/Sensitive) A crisis of conscious

Re: (OT/Sensitive) A crisis of conscious

Postby Crash on Tue Dec 03, 2002 1:49 am

ShadowFox wrote:I just don't know anymore. It seems like a matter of survival anymore. That if we don't contain and stop islam that it will destroy us all. Maybe one of you can give me a reason to change my mind.

SF


Shadowfox, I understand your frustration and anger, and I think I understand better than some where it comes from. There are two levels being addressed in this thread, and that is sure to cause some confusion. There is a religious aspect, and a defense aspect.

Just to give you a quick answer, yes, there are reasons to not hate all Muslims, or even any Muslims. Christ teaches us to "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" I think the important question is not the worthiness or unworthiness of different forms of Islam, but how your own faith tells you to act. I don't belive in moral relativism, and I think that Islam is wrong about many things, but that doesn't change how I should try to deal with Muslims.

That said, on the defense aspect, I think we SHOULD vigorously defend our country against clear threats, such as terrorism in all forms, be it foreign or home-based. You know, if a Muslim hates me, or this country, but he doesn't DO anything with that hatred, I don't really care; it's the ones who DO lash out at us that I want to see stopped. And force is not the way to stop Islam; containment will not prevent the more virulent forms from creating willing martyrs with which to attack us.

And there ARE countries which are predominantly Islamic that are improving. In a grand fit of irony, I have to point to Libya here... Quaddafi has made great strides in building a secular society, but only through rigid fascist control... *shrugs* Okay, so it's not a very good example... :)


Elix wrote:Of course the military wants you prejudiced against "the enemy"; there are less moral qualms about killing someone you hate. >>snip<< but I'm critical about the translation. What was the aim of this translation and publication, and could that have influenced any editorial or translational changes on the text to shape the reader's view?


*beats head against wall* Okay, first off, if you're looking for propaganda in this situation, the US military is not the place to find it. Secondly, and I dearly hope not to offend you, but if you can't trust the translation of the Koran sitting on the shelf of a University bookstore in CANADA to be neutral or even pro-Koran, then.... :roll:
Well, look, if you want to add in all those caveats and insinuations, you can undermine anyone's argument. And editorial soft-soaping can't come close to creating glaring statements that run along the lines of "Kill Infidels. Kill Infidels. Kill More Infidels." Remember, that book in your bookstore has probably undergone a peer review, so it's not going to be a wild fantasy.


Rico wrote:Personally, the only religion I've seen that actively practices religious tolerance are the Eclectic Wicca.

*laughs* Rico, it's kinda hard to exclude ANYone when your own beliefs are a hodgepodge of whatever conveniently allows you to live your life without answering to a higher moral authority! Eclectic, indeed!

Rico wrote:*Add Crashes comment about change coming here :wink:*


... Rats. I'm too tired to come up with a good one. *shakes fist* You've won this time, Underwood, but next time... NEXT time, MUAHAhahahahahahahahaaaaaaa!
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Postby TwoDifferentSox on Tue Dec 03, 2002 2:37 am

The terrorists useing islam as excuse to punish non-believers mostly have totally different reasons to do so. It doesn't root in "the koran says we shall extinguish them all" but more in problems in the named countries, poverty, surpression, starvation, injustice (and not always the western countries are all innocent in haveing their share of the blame for it).
Just look at the numbers: there are about 1.033 billion muslims in the world, and they are supposed to be all terrorists?
Very unlikely.
Very much too often a group gets judged by the worst behaviour of individuals.

Like I noticed that I started to develop a certain dislike for christianity lately in response to actions and events I wittnessed, but know not to be hasty with that, because I am certain that it's nothing to generalize, right? ;)
*looks at the christian fraction of the board*
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Postby LAGtheNoggin on Tue Dec 03, 2002 6:58 am

Jabeezus, that's the most involuntry posting I've seen o.@


Soooo, let's see, where to throw my two pennys worth. Humm, why not dislike Muslims? They're the ones in the media etc etc, they're the ones you always hear about...

Well, for one, it's a religion like any other. All religions can be used as an excuse to do dreadful things, Islam is just more accepted in places where poverty and whatnot are more apparent and violence is more likely. Of course, this isn't always the rule, there's a big ole' conflict of beliefs going on in Northern Ireland, and they're the same bloody religion! Now on face value that's silly, but it goes deeper, Protestants have done bad things to Catholics in the past and visa versa... If you're going to hate muslims, then why stop there? Down with Christianity! And Judaism! And all religions that have been used as an excuse to fight!

And of course you'll see that that's just rather silly. Humans are quite naturally violent, we'll keep on doing odd things even if there aren't any religions. (By Humans I'm referring to a small percentage, there's always one no matter where you go)


As for Muslims themselves, well, my College has a fair amount, about 40% of the students I'd say. It's hard to think all Muslims want the western world to burn while one asks me to help them with a Bio-chemistry question.

And finally! Name a country that's not steeped in conflict and is Islamic; Mayalsia. Admitedly there's a bit going on but overall it's peaceful. [Malaysia, big island; Singapore is the tiny dot off south of it, and if you don't know where Singapore is... errr, get a map...]
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Postby Rowan Bristol on Tue Dec 03, 2002 7:26 am

It very much is a matter of perspective, shadow.

If you're a teenage palestinian, forbidden to go to school, forced into a curfew, whose watched his best friends shot for throwing a rock at an israeli who was beating a woman, who's watched -airstrikes- on family homes on suspicion of terrorisim, who knows at any time an israeli soldier might pick him to go into a terrorist cell without protection as a human shield for the actual soldiers, I'd wonder why he -wasn't- supposed to hate Israelis and the americans who finance him.

What if you're an afghani youth, forced to choose between sheparding, military service with your warlord, or heroin growing in order to survive. Say you choose the morally acceptable option, and while coming back with your flock, you watch a precision bombing of your villiage because some rival warlord told a SpecWar guy with a laser spotter that your village hosted Al Quaeda members. I'd wonder why I wasn't supposed to hate americans.

Now let's take a look at faith for a moment....

What if you're a teenage african american in the south, and ten men in white robes have chosen to beat the smack out of you for associating with a white woman. These are members of the Knights of the White Camelia...A Christian organization.

I'm sorry this conversation has riled me so. I worked for a company that was almost -entirely- muslim. I along with 2 others were the only non-muslims. I learned about the variety of islam, as people were members of different groups. Some followed Aga Khan, a cailiph, others were 'mainstream' muslim. All were kind, considerate, and tolerant of those unlike themselves. All of us were weeping when we gathered in the conference room to watch the second building fall. We were told by the CEO, a muslim, to go to our houses of worship and pray. We formed groups to protect the muslim women who had to go out into a sea of fear and hate.

You say antiterrorism training shows that the Koran is a hate filled book. I -dare- you to look at the bible through the eyes of an antiterrorist guide. You will see depictions of Genocide, barbarism and savage brutality alll in the name of a hungry god that demands blood sacrifice. Not the faith you practice you say? Of -course- not. But if I wanted you to hate Christians just by using the bible, I'd have you foaming at the mouth.

I want you to take a look at the face of the 'enemy' very carefully. The enemy consists of cells of different isolated groups. To equate Al Quaeda with Islam is to equate the IRA with Catholicism or the KLAN with protestantism. To say what the terrorists are doing is in full accordance with true Islam is to say that the Church of Jesus Christ Christian is in accordance with true Christianity.

You may say 'but christians aren't the ones with bombs strapped to their bodies'. Not in these nations. The christians are the ones with B-2s, Apaches, AR-15s, M-1s. The christians are the ones that watched as warlords put their rivals in steel boxes and left them to bake in the sun. Christians taught those same people how deep to bury the bodies so that inspectors wouldn't find out. Thank god for forensic archaeology.

There are millions of muslims who live their lives, pray fervently, and watch the television in horror as some faction does something new. Less than a thousand people are determining how the world views a significant percentage of the planet. They listen as they hear that colleges have banned the reading of their holy text because it's 'the religion of the enemy'. They have to walk through airports praying that some bigot isn't going to freak out and they'll be detained without cause -in their own country-.

Why shouldn't we hate muslims? For the same reason we shouldn't hate Russians or Chinese. For the same reason we shouldn't hate Japanese or Germans. For the same reason we shouldn't hate Koreans or Vietnamese. For the same reason we shouldn't hate the Spanish or the British. For the same reason we shouldn't hate African Americans because of Jeff Fort or Irish because of Brendan McKenna. All have been our countries enemies. And yet, amazingly, hatred has never been the solution.

There's a lot of evil in the world, Shadow. Please let knowledge, compassion and understanding keep you fom adding to it. It's all that Peter, Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew, Simon, Thaddeus, and James of Alphaeus, wish of you. And I'm certain their master would ask the same.
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Postby IndigoMoon on Tue Dec 03, 2002 7:29 am

W.M.Y.L.G. Joe wrote:Dude, I know these group of guys who go around destroying architecture, and stuff on the streets, even swimming pools. I mean without even a second thought they just totally deface things and sometimes take pictures and videotape of it! This is actually like a whole society supposedly and they're all across the world. Some countries even build public places JUST so these people can do these things. Encouraging vandalism??? How could a country support such a thing? They call them skay-tuh-boor-durz and it sounds to me like they're the ultimate evil in todays age. These malicious cretins must be stopped and killed. If you see one, you'll know them by their beady eyes. Make sure and hurt them as much as you can! Stop them from continuing their acts of careless indifference!


*cracks all up*
We all know whose side you're on, you malicious cretin!

There was a whole big deal in my tiny hometown about everywhere being declared a 'no skateboarding zone' by the mayor. People wrote all these articles for the newspaper about how skateboarders are delinquents and such, it was rediculous. That was when my friend Jack and his crew started wearing 'skateboarding is not a crime' teeshirts every day. Hooray for civil disobediance! On the upside, their protests prompted the city to pour concrete for a skate park, but it looked pretty crappish to me (though, admittedly, I am untrained in the art).

Muslims? Er.. I really don't know enough to add to this discussion. However, I do firmly believe that there are both good and evil people claiming to belong in various religions (and that mine, Christianity, most definitely has its share). There are good muslims and bad; there are also the confused, those who actually think they are interpreting their holy texts in the proper way, but are just getting from them what they want to get. This is true in every religion.
*Indigo*

Lord, you are my lover,
My longing,
My flowing stream,
My sun,
And I am your reflection.

-Mechtild of Magdeburg, 'The Flowing Light of the Godhead'
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Postby IndigoMoon on Tue Dec 03, 2002 7:32 am

W.M.Y.L.G. Joe wrote:Dude, I know these group of guys who go around destroying architecture, and stuff on the streets, even swimming pools. I mean without even a second thought they just totally deface things and sometimes take pictures and videotape of it! This is actually like a whole society supposedly and they're all across the world. Some countries even build public places JUST so these people can do these things. Encouraging vandalism??? How could a country support such a thing? They call them skay-tuh-boor-durz and it sounds to me like they're the ultimate evil in todays age. These malicious cretins must be stopped and killed. If you see one, you'll know them by their beady eyes. Make sure and hurt them as much as you can! Stop them from continuing their acts of careless indifference!


*cracks all up*
We all know whose side you're on, you malicious cretin!

There was a whole big deal in my tiny hometown about everywhere being declared a 'no skateboarding zone' by the mayor. People wrote all these articles for the newspaper about how skateboarders are delinquents and such, it was rediculous. That was when my friend Jack and his crew started wearing 'skateboarding is not a crime' teeshirts every day. Hooray for civil disobediance! On the upside, their protests prompted the city to pour concrete for a skate park, but it looked pretty crappish to me (though, admittedly, I am untrained in the art).

Muslims? Er.. I really don't know enough to add to this discussion. However, I do firmly believe that there are both good and evil people claiming to belong in various religions (and that mine, Christianity, most definitely has its share). There are good muslims and bad; there are also the confused, those who actually think they are interpreting their holy texts in the proper way, but are just getting from them what they want to get. This is true in every religion.
*Indigo*

Lord, you are my lover,
My longing,
My flowing stream,
My sun,
And I am your reflection.

-Mechtild of Magdeburg, 'The Flowing Light of the Godhead'
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Postby IndigoMoon on Tue Dec 03, 2002 7:37 am

W.M.Y.L.G. Joe wrote:Dude, I know these group of guys who go around destroying architecture, and stuff on the streets, even swimming pools. I mean without even a second thought they just totally deface things and sometimes take pictures and videotape of it! This is actually like a whole society supposedly and they're all across the world. Some countries even build public places JUST so these people can do these things. Encouraging vandalism??? How could a country support such a thing? They call them skay-tuh-boor-durz and it sounds to me like they're the ultimate evil in todays age. These malicious cretins must be stopped and killed. If you see one, you'll know them by their beady eyes. Make sure and hurt them as much as you can! Stop them from continuing their acts of careless indifference!


*cracks all up*
We all know whose side you're on, you malicious cretin!

There was a whole big deal in my tiny hometown about everywhere being declared a 'no skateboarding zone' by the mayor. People wrote all these articles for the newspaper about how skateboarders are delinquents and such, it was rediculous. That was when my friend Jack and his crew started wearing 'skateboarding is not a crime' teeshirts every day. Hooray for civil disobediance! On the upside, their protests prompted the city to pour concrete for a skate park, but it looked pretty crappish to me (though, admittedly, I am untrained in the art).

Muslims? Er.. I really don't know enough to add to this discussion. However, I do firmly believe that there are both good and evil people claiming to belong in various religions (and that mine, Christianity, most definitely has its share). There are good muslims and bad; there are also the confused, those who actually think they are interpreting their holy texts in the proper way, but are just getting from them what they want to get. This is true in every religion.
*Indigo*

Lord, you are my lover,
My longing,
My flowing stream,
My sun,
And I am your reflection.

-Mechtild of Magdeburg, 'The Flowing Light of the Godhead'
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Postby IndigoMoon on Tue Dec 03, 2002 7:38 am

W.M.Y.L.G. Joe wrote:Dude, I know these group of guys who go around destroying architecture, and stuff on the streets, even swimming pools. I mean without even a second thought they just totally deface things and sometimes take pictures and videotape of it! This is actually like a whole society supposedly and they're all across the world. Some countries even build public places JUST so these people can do these things. Encouraging vandalism??? How could a country support such a thing? They call them skay-tuh-boor-durz and it sounds to me like they're the ultimate evil in todays age. These malicious cretins must be stopped and killed. If you see one, you'll know them by their beady eyes. Make sure and hurt them as much as you can! Stop them from continuing their acts of careless indifference!


*cracks all up*
We all know whose side you're on, you malicious cretin!

There was a whole big deal in my tiny hometown about everywhere being declared a 'no skateboarding zone' by the mayor. People wrote all these articles for the newspaper about how skateboarders are delinquents and such, it was rediculous. That was when my friend Jack and his crew started wearing 'skateboarding is not a crime' teeshirts every day. Hooray for civil disobediance! On the upside, their protests prompted the city to pour concrete for a skate park, but it looked pretty crappish to me (though, admittedly, I am untrained in the art).

Muslims? Er.. I really don't know enough to add to this discussion. However, I do firmly believe that there are both good and evil people claiming to belong in various religions (and that mine, Christianity, most definitely has its share). There are good muslims and bad; there are also the confused, those who actually think they are interpreting their holy texts in the proper way, but are just getting from them what they want to get. This is true in every religion.
*Indigo*

Lord, you are my lover,
My longing,
My flowing stream,
My sun,
And I am your reflection.

-Mechtild of Magdeburg, 'The Flowing Light of the Godhead'
IndigoMoon
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Posts: 95
Joined: Tue May 28, 2002 8:16 am
Location: KY, Land o' Fried Chicken

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