(OT/Sensitive) A crisis of conscious

(OT/Sensitive) A crisis of conscious

Postby ZOMBIE USER 10068 on Mon Dec 02, 2002 1:57 pm

All my life I've tried to not stereotype or hate, but lately I am. For you see, for months now I've been asking myself one question. "Why should I not hate and fear all muslims? Everywhere you look, it's muslims. It's them that use car bombs everywhere, it's them that hijack planes, it's them that revel in killing innocents, and it's them that are the ones trying to kill us now. Note that I'm not saying arabs, I have no problem with arabs, just muslims. People are constantly saying "It's not all Islam, just radical Islam." Yet, I really can't find any difference between them. People say that true Islam is peaceful. It's not, really. Part of the anti-terrorism training was in fundamentals of the Koran. That is a hate filled book. I mean, tell me even ONE islamic country in the world that isn't awash in poverty, ignorance and oppression.

I just don't know anymore. It seems like a matter of survival anymore. That if we don't contain and stop islam that it will destroy us all. Maybe one of you can give me a reason to change my mind.

SF
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Postby ZOMBIE USER 7262 on Mon Dec 02, 2002 2:47 pm

Though, in the Koran, it states that it is acceptable (ie, Allah will not smite thy infidel rump) for a muslim to share his food with a jew or a christian, because they are all men of the book. They all believe in a holy text to interpret the word of God, though the name may be different.

The original version of Islam, much like Christianity, was much better. Now, just like other religions I could name, it's a twisted power vehicle for hatred and greed.

Yes, muslim countries are awash in poverty and oppression. This is often due to a corrupt government that does whatever it can to keep the people under its thumb. A large budget for military, control on the media, and lies are the tools of the trade. I can think of certain prominent non-muslim countries like this.

Feel free to ignore me, but everyone all plays the same game now. It is a matter of survival, and some countries have to try harder to achieve that. Also, who survives is a big question.
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Postby ZOMBIE USER 10068 on Mon Dec 02, 2002 3:08 pm

Why would I ignore you? I'm wanting to get varied imput. As long as they arn't mindless flames, all comments are welcome. There's a good deal of things we agree on, I need to find and e-mail you a piece I wrote on religion as a whole.
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Postby W.M.Y.L.G. Joe on Mon Dec 02, 2002 4:29 pm

Dude, I know these group of guys who go around destroying architecture, and stuff on the streets, even swimming pools. I mean without even a second thought they just totally deface things and sometimes take pictures and videotape of it! This is actually like a whole society supposedly and they're all across the world. Some countries even build public places JUST so these people can do these things. Encouraging vandalism??? How could a country support such a thing? They call them skay-tuh-boor-durz and it sounds to me like they're the ultimate evil in todays age. These malicious cretins must be stopped and killed. If you see one, you'll know them by their beady eyes. Make sure and hurt them as much as you can! Stop them from continuing their acts of careless indifference!
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Re: (OT/Sensitive) A crisis of conscious

Postby Zulu Amoz on Mon Dec 02, 2002 4:31 pm

Ack! I'd wind up quoting your entire piece there!

Anyway, It may sound silly, but if you contain all the Islams because they're being violent, then no religion, be it Judaism, or Christianity would have got off the ground. Every religion goes through periods of violence. In the Old Testament, the Jews were Notorious for their violent acts. They fought wars in the name of Yahweh, and usually wound up kicking people's tails around the landscape. Christianity, during the Middle Ages was one of the most violent groups in all Europe, starting the Crusades, and burning houses of the Islamics, and killing the Infidels. Consider that Islam is a "baby" in terms of how long it's been around, it's now just getting into the Terrible Twos. Christianity and Judaism have been out of that stage for a very long time. So they think they're "civilized" in comparison. But they should just look into their past to find that they too were like that a long time ago.

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Postby Rico Underwood on Mon Dec 02, 2002 8:05 pm

Rico's 2 cents.

*Add Crashes comment about change coming here ;)*


I've been dragged to, and willing praticipated, in a lot of religions. Mainly christian sects, but a few others. Personally, the only religion I've seen that actively practices religious tolerance are the Eclectic Wicca.

Christians, Baptists, Islam, Mormons, "Holy Rollers", Lutheran, and a few others don't. Even though some may preach it, the general concensus is that they don't.
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Postby W.M.Y.L.G. Joe on Mon Dec 02, 2002 8:56 pm

Depends on your idea of tolerance. Because if you have faith in something and believe it to be true, you can't just be like, "well, these people are right too." I think it's rather silly to believe something to be the truth, but then say "oh, well what you are saying is true too!" I'm not saying EVERYTHING other faiths preach is wrong, most have similar ideas as to what Jesus preached (that being who I follow, so my stance is clear) anyway. But what I'm saying is you can't straddle the fence. Otherwise, you've made your own religion and if you wanna think you're the brains behind teh saving grace of the universe, then go right ahead. I just think it's somewhat of a narcissistic view.
But if you mean tolerance as accepting the "morals" that other faiths preach as having worth and respecting them as people, then yeah, I definitely think that's the way people should be. Most of the people from my church are tolerant in that case.

Oh and speaking of tolerance, don't tolerate these sneaky skay-tuh-boor-durz one bit! I hear they're practically massicistic in nature!!! Sounds satanic if you ask me...
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Postby ZOMBIE USER 7262 on Mon Dec 02, 2002 11:10 pm

I'd like to throw two more things into the mix.

First of all, ShadowFox, thank you for admitting and recognizing that you are prejudiced. I respect that act very much.

Second, I question the objectiveness of an evaluation of the Koran, being the holy text of "the enemy" in anti-terrorist training. Of course the military wants you prejudiced against "the enemy"; there are less moral qualms about killing someone you hate. I can't say "propaganda" in reference to how they must be treating the Koran, but I'd like to. Carefully consider the sources of the information which have led you to this state, ShadowFox.

I actually noticed that there is a translation of the Koran available in my university's bookstore. I'm entirely tempted to buy it just to read it, but I'm critical about the translation. What was the aim of this translation and publication, and could that have influenced any editorial or translational changes on the text to shape the reader's view?
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Postby ZOMBIE USER 7262 on Mon Dec 02, 2002 11:15 pm

Double post.
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Postby ZOMBIE USER 7262 on Mon Dec 02, 2002 11:21 pm

Triple post.
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Postby ZOMBIE USER 7262 on Mon Dec 02, 2002 11:24 pm

This is kind of embarassing by now... *kicks forum*
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Postby ZOMBIE USER 7262 on Mon Dec 02, 2002 11:29 pm

Things like this do wonders for your credibility.
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Postby ZOMBIE USER 7262 on Mon Dec 02, 2002 11:36 pm

I can have conversations with myself. Lalala.
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Postby ZOMBIE USER 7262 on Mon Dec 02, 2002 11:41 pm

The count is seven now, if you're keeping track.
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Postby ZOMBIE USER 7262 on Mon Dec 02, 2002 11:46 pm

And eight.
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Postby Rowan Bristol on Tue Dec 03, 2002 1:02 am

It very much is a matter of perspective, shadow.

If you're a teenage palestinian, forbidden to go to school, forced into a curfew, whose watched his best friends shot for throwing a rock at an israeli who was beating a woman, who's watched -airstrikes- on family homes on suspicion of terrorisim, who knows at any time an israeli soldier might pick him to go into a terrorist cell without protection as a human shield for the actual soldiers, I'd wonder why he -wasn't- supposed to hate Israelis and the americans who finance him.

What if you're an afghani youth, forced to choose between sheparding, military service with your warlord, or heroin growing in order to survive. Say you choose the morally acceptable option, and while coming back with your flock, you watch a precision bombing of your villiage because some rival warlord told a SpecWar guy with a laser spotter that your village hosted Al Quaeda members. I'd wonder why I wasn't supposed to hate americans.

Now let's take a look at faith for a moment....

I'm a teenage african american in the south, and ten men in white robes have chosen to beat the smack out of me for associating with a white woman. These are members of the Knights of the Royal Gardenia...A Christian organization.

I'm sorry this conversation has riled me so. I worked for a company that was -entirely- muslim. I along with 2 others were the only non-muslims. I learned about the variety of islam, as people were members of different groups. Some followed Aga Khan, a cailiph, others were 'mainstream' muslim. All were kind, considerate, and tolerant of those unlike themselves. All of us were weeping when we gathered in the conference room to watch the second building fall. We were told by the CEO, a muslim, to go to our houses of worship and pray. We formed groups to protect the muslim women who had to go out into a sea of fear and hate.

You say antiterrorism training shows that the Koran is a hate filled book. I -dare- you to look at the bible through the eyes of an antiterrorist guide. You will see depictions of Genocide, barbarism and savage brutality alll in the name of a hungry god that demands blood sacrifice. Not the faith you practice you say? Of -course- not. But if I wanted you to hate Christians just by using the bible, I'd have you foaming at the mouth.

I want you to take a look at the face of the 'enemy' very carefully. The enemy consists of cells of different isolated groups. To equate Al Quaeda with Islam is to equate the IRA with Catholicism or the KLAN with protestantism. To say what the terrorists are doing is in full accordance with true Islam is to say that the Church of Jesus Christ Christian is in accordance with true Christianity.

You may say 'but christians aren't the ones with bombs strapped to their bodies'. Not in these nations. The christians are the ones with B-2s, Apaches, AR-15s, M-1s. The christians are the ones that watched as warlords put their rivals in steel boxes and left them to bake in the sun. Christians taught those same people how deep to bury the bodies so that inspectors wouldn't find out. Thank god for forensic archaeology.

There are millions of muslims who live their lives, pray fervently, and watch the television in horror as some faction does something new. Less than a thousand people are determining how the world views a significant percentage of the planet. They listen as they hear that colleges have banned the reading of their holy text because it's 'the religion of the enemy'. They have to walk through airports praying that some bigot isn't going to freak out and they'll be detained without cause -in their own country-.

Why shouldn't we hate muslims? For the same reason we shouldn't hate Russians or Chinese. For the same reason we shouldn't hate Japanese or Germans. For the same reason we shouldn't hate Koreans or Vietnamese. For the same reason we shouldn't hate the Spanish or the British. For the same reason we shouldn't hate African Americans because of Jeff Fort or Irish because of Brendan McKenna.

There's a lot of evil in the world, Shadow. Please let knowledge, compassion and understanding keep you fom adding to it. It's all that Peter, Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew, Simon, Thaddeus, and James of Alphaeus, wish of you. And I'm certain their master would ask the same.
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Postby Rowan Bristol on Tue Dec 03, 2002 1:06 am

It very much is a matter of perspective, shadow.

If you're a teenage palestinian, forbidden to go to school, forced into a curfew, whose watched his best friends shot for throwing a rock at an israeli who was beating a woman, who's watched -airstrikes- on family homes on suspicion of terrorisim, who knows at any time an israeli soldier might pick him to go into a terrorist cell without protection as a human shield for the actual soldiers, I'd wonder why he -wasn't- supposed to hate Israelis and the americans who finance him.

What if you're an afghani youth, forced to choose between sheparding, military service with your warlord, or heroin growing in order to survive. Say you choose the morally acceptable option, and while coming back with your flock, you watch a precision bombing of your villiage because some rival warlord told a SpecWar guy with a laser spotter that your village hosted Al Quaeda members. I'd wonder why I wasn't supposed to hate americans.

Now let's take a look at faith for a moment....

I'm a teenage african american in the south, and ten men in white robes have chosen to beat the smack out of me for associating with a white woman. These are members of the Knights of the Royal Gardenia...A Christian organization.

I'm sorry this conversation has riled me so. I worked for a company that was -entirely- muslim. I along with 2 others were the only non-muslims. I learned about the variety of islam, as people were members of different groups. Some followed Aga Khan, a cailiph, others were 'mainstream' muslim. All were kind, considerate, and tolerant of those unlike themselves. All of us were weeping when we gathered in the conference room to watch the second building fall. We were told by the CEO, a muslim, to go to our houses of worship and pray. We formed groups to protect the muslim women who had to go out into a sea of fear and hate.

You say antiterrorism training shows that the Koran is a hate filled book. I -dare- you to look at the bible through the eyes of an antiterrorist guide. You will see depictions of Genocide, barbarism and savage brutality alll in the name of a hungry god that demands blood sacrifice. Not the faith you practice you say? Of -course- not. But if I wanted you to hate Christians just by using the bible, I'd have you foaming at the mouth.

I want you to take a look at the face of the 'enemy' very carefully. The enemy consists of cells of different isolated groups. To equate Al Quaeda with Islam is to equate the IRA with Catholicism or the KLAN with protestantism. To say what the terrorists are doing is in full accordance with true Islam is to say that the Church of Jesus Christ Christian is in accordance with true Christianity.

You may say 'but christians aren't the ones with bombs strapped to their bodies'. Not in these nations. The christians are the ones with B-2s, Apaches, AR-15s, M-1s. The christians are the ones that watched as warlords put their rivals in steel boxes and left them to bake in the sun. Christians taught those same people how deep to bury the bodies so that inspectors wouldn't find out. Thank god for forensic archaeology.

There are millions of muslims who live their lives, pray fervently, and watch the television in horror as some faction does something new. Less than a thousand people are determining how the world views a significant percentage of the planet. They listen as they hear that colleges have banned the reading of their holy text because it's 'the religion of the enemy'. They have to walk through airports praying that some bigot isn't going to freak out and they'll be detained without cause -in their own country-.

Why shouldn't we hate muslims? For the same reason we shouldn't hate Russians or Chinese. For the same reason we shouldn't hate Japanese or Germans. For the same reason we shouldn't hate Koreans or Vietnamese. For the same reason we shouldn't hate the Spanish or the British. For the same reason we shouldn't hate African Americans because of Jeff Fort or Irish because of Brendan McKenna.

There's a lot of evil in the world, Shadow. Please let knowledge, compassion and understanding keep you fom adding to it. It's all that Peter, Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew, Simon, Thaddeus, and James of Alphaeus, wish of you. And I'm certain their master would ask the same.
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Re: (OT/Sensitive) A crisis of conscious

Postby Crash on Tue Dec 03, 2002 1:35 am

ShadowFox wrote:I just don't know anymore. It seems like a matter of survival anymore. That if we don't contain and stop islam that it will destroy us all. Maybe one of you can give me a reason to change my mind.

SF


Shadowfox, I understand your frustration and anger, and I think I understand better than some where it comes from. There are two levels being addressed in this thread, and that is sure to cause some confusion. There is a religious aspect, and a defense aspect.

Just to give you a quick answer, yes, there are reasons to not hate all Muslims, or even any Muslims. Christ teaches us to "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" I think the important question is not the worthiness or unworthiness of different forms of Islam, but how your own faith tells you to act. I don't belive in moral relativism, and I think that Islam is wrong about many things, but that doesn't change how I should try to deal with Muslims.

That said, on the defense aspect, I think we SHOULD vigorously defend our country against clear threats, such as terrorism in all forms, be it foreign or home-based. You know, if a Muslim hates me, or this country, but he doesn't DO anything with that hatred, I don't really care; it's the ones who DO lash out at us that I want to see stopped. And force is not the way to stop Islam; containment will not prevent the more virulent forms from creating willing martyrs with which to attack us.

And there ARE countries which are predominantly Islamic that are improving. In a grand fit of irony, I have to point to Libya here... Quaddafi has made great strides in building a secular society, but only through rigid fascist control... *shrugs* Okay, so it's not a very good example... :)


Elix wrote:Of course the military wants you prejudiced against "the enemy"; there are less moral qualms about killing someone you hate. >>snip<< but I'm critical about the translation. What was the aim of this translation and publication, and could that have influenced any editorial or translational changes on the text to shape the reader's view?


*beats head against wall* Okay, first off, if you're looking for propaganda in this situation, the US military is not the place to find it. Secondly, and I dearly hope not to offend you, but if you can't trust the translation of the Koran sitting on the shelf of a University bookstore in CANADA to be neutral or even pro-Koran, then.... :roll:
Well, look, if you want to add in all those caveats and insinuations, you can undermine anyone's argument. And editorial soft-soaping can't come close to creating glaring statements that run along the lines of "Kill Infidels. Kill Infidels. Kill More Infidels." Remember, that book in your bookstore has probably undergone a peer review, so it's not going to be a wild fantasy.


Rico wrote:Personally, the only religion I've seen that actively practices religious tolerance are the Eclectic Wicca.

*laughs* Rico, it's kinda hard to exclude ANYone when your own beliefs are a hodgepodge of whatever conveniently allows you to live your life without answering to a higher moral authority! Eclectic, indeed!

Rico wrote:*Add Crashes comment about change coming here :wink:*


... Rats. I'm too tired to come up with a good one. *shakes fist* You've won this time, Underwood, but next time... NEXT time, MUAHAhahahahahahahahaaaaaaa!
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Re: (OT/Sensitive) A crisis of conscious

Postby Crash on Tue Dec 03, 2002 1:39 am

ShadowFox wrote:I just don't know anymore. It seems like a matter of survival anymore. That if we don't contain and stop islam that it will destroy us all. Maybe one of you can give me a reason to change my mind.

SF


Shadowfox, I understand your frustration and anger, and I think I understand better than some where it comes from. There are two levels being addressed in this thread, and that is sure to cause some confusion. There is a religious aspect, and a defense aspect.

Just to give you a quick answer, yes, there are reasons to not hate all Muslims, or even any Muslims. Christ teaches us to "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" I think the important question is not the worthiness or unworthiness of different forms of Islam, but how your own faith tells you to act. I don't belive in moral relativism, and I think that Islam is wrong about many things, but that doesn't change how I should try to deal with Muslims.

That said, on the defense aspect, I think we SHOULD vigorously defend our country against clear threats, such as terrorism in all forms, be it foreign or home-based. You know, if a Muslim hates me, or this country, but he doesn't DO anything with that hatred, I don't really care; it's the ones who DO lash out at us that I want to see stopped. And force is not the way to stop Islam; containment will not prevent the more virulent forms from creating willing martyrs with which to attack us.

And there ARE countries which are predominantly Islamic that are improving. In a grand fit of irony, I have to point to Libya here... Quaddafi has made great strides in building a secular society, but only through rigid fascist control... *shrugs* Okay, so it's not a very good example... :)


Elix wrote:Of course the military wants you prejudiced against "the enemy"; there are less moral qualms about killing someone you hate. >>snip<< but I'm critical about the translation. What was the aim of this translation and publication, and could that have influenced any editorial or translational changes on the text to shape the reader's view?


*beats head against wall* Okay, first off, if you're looking for propaganda in this situation, the US military is not the place to find it. Secondly, and I dearly hope not to offend you, but if you can't trust the translation of the Koran sitting on the shelf of a University bookstore in CANADA to be neutral or even pro-Koran, then.... :roll:
Well, look, if you want to add in all those caveats and insinuations, you can undermine anyone's argument. And editorial soft-soaping can't come close to creating glaring statements that run along the lines of "Kill Infidels. Kill Infidels. Kill More Infidels." Remember, that book in your bookstore has probably undergone a peer review, so it's not going to be a wild fantasy.


Rico wrote:Personally, the only religion I've seen that actively practices religious tolerance are the Eclectic Wicca.

*laughs* Rico, it's kinda hard to exclude ANYone when your own beliefs are a hodgepodge of whatever conveniently allows you to live your life without answering to a higher moral authority! Eclectic, indeed!

Rico wrote:*Add Crashes comment about change coming here :wink:*


... Rats. I'm too tired to come up with a good one. *shakes fist* You've won this time, Underwood, but next time... NEXT time, MUAHAhahahahahahahahaaaaaaa!
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Re: (OT/Sensitive) A crisis of conscious

Postby Crash on Tue Dec 03, 2002 1:44 am

ShadowFox wrote:I just don't know anymore. It seems like a matter of survival anymore. That if we don't contain and stop islam that it will destroy us all. Maybe one of you can give me a reason to change my mind.

SF


Shadowfox, I understand your frustration and anger, and I think I understand better than some where it comes from. There are two levels being addressed in this thread, and that is sure to cause some confusion. There is a religious aspect, and a defense aspect.

Just to give you a quick answer, yes, there are reasons to not hate all Muslims, or even any Muslims. Christ teaches us to "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" I think the important question is not the worthiness or unworthiness of different forms of Islam, but how your own faith tells you to act. I don't belive in moral relativism, and I think that Islam is wrong about many things, but that doesn't change how I should try to deal with Muslims.

That said, on the defense aspect, I think we SHOULD vigorously defend our country against clear threats, such as terrorism in all forms, be it foreign or home-based. You know, if a Muslim hates me, or this country, but he doesn't DO anything with that hatred, I don't really care; it's the ones who DO lash out at us that I want to see stopped. And force is not the way to stop Islam; containment will not prevent the more virulent forms from creating willing martyrs with which to attack us.

And there ARE countries which are predominantly Islamic that are improving. In a grand fit of irony, I have to point to Libya here... Quaddafi has made great strides in building a secular society, but only through rigid fascist control... *shrugs* Okay, so it's not a very good example... :)


Elix wrote:Of course the military wants you prejudiced against "the enemy"; there are less moral qualms about killing someone you hate. >>snip<< but I'm critical about the translation. What was the aim of this translation and publication, and could that have influenced any editorial or translational changes on the text to shape the reader's view?


*beats head against wall* Okay, first off, if you're looking for propaganda in this situation, the US military is not the place to find it. Secondly, and I dearly hope not to offend you, but if you can't trust the translation of the Koran sitting on the shelf of a University bookstore in CANADA to be neutral or even pro-Koran, then.... :roll:
Well, look, if you want to add in all those caveats and insinuations, you can undermine anyone's argument. And editorial soft-soaping can't come close to creating glaring statements that run along the lines of "Kill Infidels. Kill Infidels. Kill More Infidels." Remember, that book in your bookstore has probably undergone a peer review, so it's not going to be a wild fantasy.


Rico wrote:Personally, the only religion I've seen that actively practices religious tolerance are the Eclectic Wicca.

*laughs* Rico, it's kinda hard to exclude ANYone when your own beliefs are a hodgepodge of whatever conveniently allows you to live your life without answering to a higher moral authority! Eclectic, indeed!

Rico wrote:*Add Crashes comment about change coming here :wink:*


... Rats. I'm too tired to come up with a good one. *shakes fist* You've won this time, Underwood, but next time... NEXT time, MUAHAhahahahahahahahaaaaaaa!
<img ALIGN=left SRC="http://images.deviantart.com/large/indyart/indymisc/My_Mo_Better_Avatar.gif">R. Lee Ermey's Strategy Tip of the Day:
Don't mess with Sparta. Watch:

Your ass is mine, Socrates!
Get back! Yield! Yield!


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The big question is... Once you've had weasel sticks, can you ever go back?
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Location: Currently looking over your shoulder... To think you'd LOOK at such things!

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