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Okay so this new board is really coolies, especially the feature that shows you which IM thingee ma boppers y'all are on! Wheeee!

Was that a fun weekend or what? I went ta Tahoe and played in the snow what did you do?

Okay, now on to business. Religion and Furries. I think Christian churches have a bad rap in recent years do to the encounters people have had with religious people who try to push their religion on others and therefor we have developed this "ewwwww Christianity" approach.

Well if you look at it from the other side that is the same approach that some Christians have toward furries. They look at the few who are kinna creepy and classify us all by those people! The media doesn't help any either!

Okay so my question really is...how do you feel about being classified or labeled by the general public?

Me? I slacked off all weekend. Which, in retrospect, is something I shouldn't have done. Oh well, I'm determined to have a calm and not-too-stressful week, 'cause I'm having my wisdom teeth out Friday and the last thing I need is to be so stressed out they give me even more sedatives.

Onto the religion topic...I'm gonna keep this as brief as possible. Christianity as an idea (the "core" concepts) is wonderful. The Christian churches, however, have a bad reputation, and not always undeserved. (I'm looking more on history, here.) I'm not against Christianity, understand. I just find it mighty offensive when someone tries to change me, especially when it comes to such a deep concept as faith.

As for furries, heck. We're different. Of course people are going to look at us funny and generalize. It's something that they might not really understand, and possibly don't want to understand. Prejudice is a natural reaction, people. (Thank you, MTV.)

As for being classified or labelled...I've endured that for a long time, and somehow I've come out stronger. I'm confident in who I am, and that's a belief that can't be easily shaken. Frankly, I mostly ignore people who can't be bothered to actually understand who I am. The problem's on their end, not mine.

On 2002-02-19 09:21, Elix wrote:
Me? I slacked off all weekend. Which, in retrospect, is something I shouldn't have done. Oh well, I'm determined to have a calm and not-too-stressful week, 'cause I'm having my wisdom teeth out Friday and the last thing I need is to be so stressed out they give me even more sedatives.

Yes! Fight for your right to have a calm not-to-stressful week! Eek! Not the wisdom teeth! I'll be by your side in spirit and I hope its not too painful!

Onto the religion topic...I'm gonna keep this as brief as possible. Christianity as an idea (the "core" concepts) is wonderful. The Christian churches, however, have a bad reputation, and not always undeserved. (I'm looking more on history, here.) I'm not against Christianity, understand. I just find it mighty offensive when someone tries to change me, especially when it comes to such a deep concept as faith.

There are a lot of people in the Christian faith that do try to change others. Their faith to them is a wonderful gift that they wish to share with their friends and relatives and all these people that think of life differently then they do. Thing is, how do they "save" their friends from the end that they shall meet at the hands of the Christian God without trying to make them see "the error of their ways" other than by trying to make them change? What if they're right? What if they're wrong?

As for furries, heck. We're different. Of course people are going to look at us funny and generalize. It's something that they might not really understand, and possibly don't want to understand. Prejudice is a natural reaction, people. (Thank you, MTV.)

We're different and we love it! But prejudice a natural reaction? I don't think nature intended us to form opinions of others based on the way they looked, acted or felt. I think it is our imagination which allows us to conceive of these generalities based on ideas formed by the general society or by our fear of the unknown. Okay, maybe a certain aspect of Prejudice is natural, like when you see a guy with muscles that looks very mean walking your way your fear instinct kicks in saying "Maybe I shouldn't piss him off he might beat the crap out of me" But even then, that is based on imagination.

As for being classified or labelled...I've endured that for a long time, and somehow I've come out stronger. I'm confident in who I am, and that's a belief that can't be easily shaken. Frankly, I mostly ignore people who can't be bothered to actually understand who I am. The problem's on their end, not mine.

Hee! Elix, I you are wonderful! I enjoy getting to know you through our conversations and look forward to more!

My faith is a wonderful gift to me. It's what's kept me going all these years. What exactly my faith is is irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion, but I follow no single organized religion.

However, I approach this differently. I do have a unique faith, and as such, I feel that there is no need for me to spread this around. I'm secure in my beliefs. I do my best to help others by giving words of wisdom and support, but without a religious or spiritual tone.

Something I'd like to address in the wording of what you said, Simplicity:

Thing is, how do they "save" their friends from the end that they shall meet at the hands of the Christian God without trying to make them see "the error of their ways" other than by trying to make them change?

Good question. But I'd like to adjust your wording a little:

Thing is, how do they "save" their friends from the end that they perceive they shall meet at the hands of the Christian God ...

I am not a Christian. Therefore, I do not believe that my end will be with God. I also respect the beliefs of others who do follow the Christian faith, or any other faith.

To me, it all boils down to the fact that we're all neighbours on this floating rock we call a planet, and we're not going anywhere fast. We've got to learn how to live together.

"I don't think nature intended us to form opinions of others based on the way they looked, acted or felt."

look at my .sig =P

fear of what is not the same as you has been a survival instinct since fear was possible.
it doesent matter if the differences are four legs, lots of fur, big sharp pointy teeth and it's coming right at you. or just a different skin colour. your subconcious goes "OMFG get it away!" in the case of the rabid animal. this is a good thing. in the case of the person, most people can control impulses like that to the point where the act of controlling the subconsious is subconsious itself.

On 2002-02-19 12:04, Elix wrote:
My faith is a wonderful gift to me. It's what's kept me going all these years. What exactly my faith is is irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion, but I follow no single organized religion.

However, I approach this differently. I do have a unique faith, and as such, I feel that there is no need for me to spread this around. I'm secure in my beliefs. I do my best to help others by giving words of wisdom and support, but without a religious or spiritual tone.

Would you explain your beliefs to someone who sought spiritual guidance and came to you for it? What if there was someone who believed the same way as you, called it their "faith" and wanted to convert you to it?

Something I'd like to address in the wording of what you said, Simplicity:

Thing is, how do they "save" their friends from the end that they shall meet at the hands of the Christian God without trying to make them see "the error of their ways" other than by trying to make them change?

Good question. But I'd like to adjust your wording a little:

Thing is, how do they "save" their friends from the end that they perceive they shall meet at the hands of the Christian God ...

I am not a Christian. Therefore, I do not believe that my end will be with God. I also respect the beliefs of others who do follow the Christian faith, or any other faith.

But how do the people who do follow the Christian faith, "save" their friends without trying to convert them? And why are you adjusting my question without even answering it?

To me, it all boils down to the fact that we're all neighbours on this floating rock we call a planet, and we're not going anywhere fast. We've got to learn how to live together.

But we don't want to live together! Or do we? Sure we are neighbors but does that mean we have to learn how to live together? *Sighs* Small towns are nifty because the shopkeepers know their customers and neighbors walk across the street to ask for things they don't have. What if the world was like that?

Yeah Kurayamino, I was going to say that. Curse you for being faster than me! I have heard it said that most other countries dont have the problems we do because they are all French, English, whatever. Unfortunate? Sure, but we are at least rational to govern our own behavior and find the similarities that exist in all of us.

ONCE AGAIN ITS HP LOVECRAFT DARNIT, ME AND TDS DESERVE COOKIES, WHERE ARE OUR COOKIES.

It's nice that you guys, Elix and Simplicity are bonding and all, but isnt christianity an easy target? I mean I've blasted overbearing christians before, but as someone famous once said, "There are two things you dont discuss in polite company, religon and politics." I have found these words to contain much wisdom.

Btw, who is that guy? I have long forgotten.

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But we don't want to live together! Or do we? Sure we are neighbors but does that mean we have to learn how to live together? *Sighs* Small towns are nifty because the shopkeepers know their customers and neighbors walk across the street to ask for things they don't have. What if the world was like that?

<br>

Read Lewis Sinclair's "Main Street." It is a harsh look on the idealized small town. I have lived in one and I understand the phrase, "familiarity breeds contempt" but at least they arent usually shooting each other I have to admit.

I had an enjoyible weekend, finished my website for class, my TCP/IP stuff that turned out was not asked for, and I watch "Buckaroo Banzai across the 8th dimension." HOODY-HOO!

Simplicity said:
But how do the people who do follow the Christian faith "save" their friends without trying to convert them? And why are you adjusting my question without even answering it?

I can't answer your question because I'm not a Christian. I don't know the answer. I'm adjusting your question because, frankly, the implied bias of the question is that Christians are 100% right about their religion and death and all...and, presumably, all us misguided heathens simply don't get it. I don't mean to accuse you of this, but this is the attitude I've seen a lot of Christians take, and it bothers me.

By definition, "saving" an unbeliever requires you to change them, because they are precisely that: an unbeliever. And in the Christian faith, unbelievers are treated less favourably than Christians upon death. And that's saying it gently.

But we don't want to live together! Or do we? Sure we are neighbors but does that mean we have to learn how to live together?

I meant in a global sense. Sure, we may not want to learn to live together, but, y'know what, we do live together, one way or another. Y'know what happens when people can't live together on a large scale? It's called War. People get killed. People get scarred. Hatred is born. Distrust is born. Disharmony. Many more 'dis' words. Very soon, we don't have to worry about living together, because we're no longer living.

Ultimately, I would like to posit this as my question in this debate: Who decides what is right and what is not?

Think about it.

On 2002-02-19 21:27, rcawley8 wrote:
Yeah Kurayamino, I was going to say that. Curse you for being faster than me! I have heard it said that most other countries dont have the problems we do because they are all French, English, whatever.

They are? I think most first-world countries (France, England, for example, and also Canada, if you're going by official languages) are pretty multi-cultural. I'm Canadian, and if I go into the cafeteria at lunchtime, I'm pretty much assured of hearing at least six different languages spoken in conversation.

I mean I've blasted overbearing christians before, but as someone famous once said, "There are two things you dont discuss in polite company, religon and politics." I have found these words to contain much wisdom.

Btw, who is that guy? I have long forgotten.

Wasn't that Mark Twain?

On 2002-02-19 21:27, rcawley8 wrote:
I mean I've blasted overbearing christians before, but as someone famous once said, "There are two things you dont discuss in polite company, religon and politics." I have found these words to contain much wisdom.

I'm sorry, but unless you're hot headed and close minded, I don't think it's wrong with discussing religion or politics. I love hearing and learning about others POV's, even if I don't (or ever) agree with them.

Hmmm, I just feel after following this thread for a while, to simply throw in my oppinion on religions.

I'm more or less atheistic, and I have the oppinion, that everyone can belive whatever he or she wants without me being bothered at all, as long as it doesn't discriminate others or causes others negative things.
I never saw a real reason for me to interact in religious debates, it's very unlikely I will "convert" someone to atheism or that I will be converted to the religion talked about. Also my views and oppinion on it might offend someone that is having strong faith into it (Gosh, when I recall one time as I got into a debate with a pastor...), and because normally the topic doesn't come up while talking with totally strangers, I don't like taking the risk to offend a friend (I value them too much).
I simply accept what he/she believes, and I hope he or she accepts what I believe, and then we talk about something that is really interesting...like flowers! (::chuckles::, sorry, inside joke here )

And to the question who says what is right, I just can say how I judge on that, and it starts with the simple question "did someone had to suffer because of it?".
Of course I know the the answer to that doesn't automatically say it's right or wrong, it is just the base for me.
What is yours?

I can't answer your question because I'm not a Christian. I don't know the answer. I'm adjusting your question because, frankly, the implied bias of the question is that Christians are 100% right about their religion and death and all...and, presumably, all us misguided heathens simply don't get it. I don't mean to accuse you of this, but this is the attitude I've seen a lot of Christians take, and it bothers me.

A lot of Christians do have that attitude and the very fact that they believe that gives their religion a bad name with a lot of the free thinkers. They want to "help" by telling the people who live comfortably by their own beliefs, that their beliefs are wrong and they should really join the "fold". They wonder why people would turn down their Lord's promise of paradise or whatever afterlife there is.

By definition, "saving" an unbeliever requires you to change them, because they are precisely that: an unbeliever. And in the Christian faith, unbelievers are treated less favourably than Christians upon death. And that's saying it gently.

Is it noble though? Is it noble to want to change your friends in order to spare them from a "fate worse then death?" Alot of them are taught about hell and how awful it is and they, at any cost, sacrifice their time and money and lives even, to spend it trying to save their friends.

I meant in a global sense. Sure, we may not want to learn to live together, but, y'know what, we do live together, one way or another. Y'know what happens when people can't live together on a large scale? It's called War. People get killed. People get scarred. Hatred is born. Distrust is born. Disharmony. Many more 'dis' words. Very soon, we don't have to worry about living together, because we're no longer living.

Does this mean we should try to live together though? Most of the reasons why we can't live together peacefully is because there are beliefs out there that can't coincide with one another. Elix, I do agree with you. I would love to see a united world instead of all this bloodshed because of old feuds and issues with who has what. Most of the fighting going on right now is pointless and sad! Think of all the things we could accomplish as a world if we worked together with a universal goal! Go further than that and think what we could do as a universe!

Ultimately, I would like to posit this as my question in this debate: Who decides what is right and what is not?

Think about it.

Ultimately, you. So what does that make us? Creators?

Well as for me, I'm sorta 'searching.' I'm supposedly Christian but I don't believe in everything they do. I've been looking up different religions and it's only gotten to me recently. *shrugs* I don't know why. One religion that I think is interesting is Buddhism (or however you spell it). It's pretty interesting. Nirvana for examply...the end of imperfection.

Anwayz I don't judge people by what religion you are. Except when they yell in your face and scream that you worship the devil because you believe that the bible may have only been a best-selling novel. Note the may. Anywayz...after I told her (the girl who did that to me) that she was not there at the time and doesn't know what happened she ran off and told the principal that I was haressing her. *sighs* I don't understand people.

I'm going to become a hermit and live a very happy life.

On 2002-02-20 10:55, niquee wrote:
One religion that I think is interesting is Buddhism (or however you spell it). It's pretty interesting. Nirvana for example...the end of imperfection.

Say, I just got done reading the Bardo-Thosgrol!(aka: Tibetan Book of the Dead) Umm, lots of, shall we say, 'colorful' characters, always with an extra arm to spare. Things tend to not be as bad or good as they look. There's lots of repetition, and, lots of they'll inform you of, then in the next sentence tell you that it's not important anyways.

~C.C.Q. Dobhran 8:=3

On 2002-02-19 22:47, Elix wrote:

On 2002-02-19 21:27, rcawley8 wrote:
Yeah Kurayamino, I was going to say that. Curse you for being faster than me! I have heard it said that most other countries dont have the problems we do because they are all French, English, whatever.

They are? I think most first-world countries (France, England, for example, and also Canada, if you're going by official languages) are pretty multi-cultural. I'm Canadian, and if I go into the cafeteria at lunchtime, I'm pretty much assured of hearing at least six different languages spoken in conversation.

please be as so good as to note the term most. I would also like to point out that many of those lovely anticdotes that are show on... What was that channel? Lifetime, History... Meh, I have heard people talk about racism in other countries and I seem to recall a WW2 movie about african americans in England during the war, now I have never talked to the these people, nor can I demostrate that this is fact and not some distortion of Hollywood, but the movie was pretty matter of factual about how the african americans were accepted. As for the six different languages in your fictional cafeteria I would question that tenatively, but mainly because I have never been there. Communication tends to be dictated by the majority.

Mmmmmm... mob rule.

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On 2002-02-19 21:27, rcawley8 wrote:
I mean I've blasted overbearing christians before, but as someone famous once said, "There are two things you dont discuss in polite company, religon and politics." I have found these words to contain much wisdom.


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I'm sorry, but unless you're hot headed and close minded, I don't think it's wrong with discussing religion or politics. I love hearing and learning about others POV's, even if I don't (or ever) agree with them.

That is assuming an awful lot of me. And inevitably you will run into the misanthropes whose sole existance is to say, "You are so wrong and I am so right, how could you possibly be breathing the same Oxygen as me!"

And more often than not it is no longer about opinions, but about who is more persistant.


Mmmm Hermitude. Better lose the internet;)

I remember in grade school where I asked the instructer if the bible will one day be called mythology. I think that is rather insightful of me at that age. Course the teacher did not appreciate that or answer, oh well, guess I'll never know now. I sympathize niquee.

[qoute]
Does this mean we should try to live together though? Most of the reasons why we can't live together peacefully is because there are beliefs out there that can't coincide with one another. Elix, I do agree with you. I would love to see a united world instead of all this bloodshed because of old feuds and issues with who has what. Most of the fighting going on right now is pointless and sad! Think of all the things we could accomplish as a world if we worked together with a universal goal! Go further than that and think what we could do as a universe!

Quote:
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Ultimately, I would like to posit this as my question in this debate: Who decides what is right and what is not?

Think about it.


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Ultimately, you. So what does that make us? Creators?
[/quote]

Yes and no, if all things are defined by perception, and it is how we percieve them that gives them meaning, does that mean calling a bear a goat will make it any less likly to chew your head off? Seriously, if reality follow perception (see what I wrote in the philosophy thread) than it is man that meaning to what he defines, sure. But on the other hand, reality stills has a great deal of immutiblity, I mean up is what we defined it but no matter what you call it, it is oppisite from the direction you fall in.

Of course I am talking about the physical and not the belief systems you talk about. Morals and ethics have never been easily defined, there are too many "unlesses" involved. A man is guilty of murder, unless he was defending his own life (and so on). And I agree with you, there never can be a united world as long as there is more than one way of doing things. And that is where we fall short, IMHO. It is too easy to believe that your belief is the only belief. It has worked for you for so long and maybe it has existed for years, and you met another method, it makes you sit back and say "How wrong can that guy be" and you might end up working at cross purposes, trying to reach the same goal but not able to deal with the other guy and conflict arises, 'course it is not always so simple but I have already talked for too long, I mean who is reading this? I really try not to babble on like this but once I start to get into my "groove" I really dont stop, well I apologize for this great huge chunk O paragraph, entirely my bad. Wait, I was going somewhere with this, oh yeah...

Lem, you should read Lem he wrote an enjoyible story about a planet of poeple that all worked together, and in order to show their might to Lem's scientist charactor, they all jump at once and fall off their planet, really cute. I think I got some of the story wrong.

Grrr, I will get the html qoute to work some day.

On 2002-02-20 16:54, rcawley8 wrote:
As for the six different languages in your fictional cafeteria I would question that tenatively, but mainly because I have never been there. Communication tends to be dictated by the majority.

Trust me, there's nothing fictional about my university's cafeteria. Where do you think I ate today? It's common to hear, in various sections, Korean, Japanese, various dialects of Chinese, English, and at least one other Indo-European language. Mind you, we do have a good number of international students...

Also, acceptance does not mean homogeniety.

Btw, this is why you haven't been able to get the BBcode quote to work. It's spelled "quote," not "qoute." Easy to fix.

[qoute]
Does this mean we should try to live together though? ...

(edit: dur...)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Elix on 2002-02-20 17:46 ]</font>

Excuse me I said I would one day get the QOUTE to work, thank you .
And where, if I may ask, are you Elix? North America is nortorious for its diversity, unlike, japan.

I must reinforce that, from what I've heard, I cant remember my source I apologze, that several countries in europe, where homogenity is much more common, that their prejudices were the norm. Albert Camus, however, does speak of refugees that are discriminated against in "the stranger."

Elix do you monitor this site? your reply is so quick.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: rcawley8 on 2002-02-20 20:11 ]</font>

On 2002-02-20 20:09, rcawley8 wrote:
Excuse me I said I would one day get the QOUTE to work, thank you .
And where, if I may ask, are you Elix? North America is nortorious for its diversity, unlike, japan.

My apologies. Better start working on HTML 5.0 to get the <qoute> tag implemented.

I live in British Columbia, Canada. Now, I've never been to Japan, but even a supposedly homogenous country like Japan is not. Mind you, officially, the government has declared that Japan is one people. (Now, imagine that Bush declared tomorrow that all Americans are all one single people. I think he'd get laughed at.)

I must reinforce that, from what I've heard, I cant remember my source I apologze, that several countries in europe, where homogenity is much more common, that their prejudices were the norm. Albert Camus, however, does speak of refugees that are discriminated against in "the stranger."

I read that in French 12. In the original French. It made no sense at all to me. Then again, I have trouble reading French literature, so... It's odd. I can speed through a piece of English-language literature, and totally understand it. French might as well be a village dialect in India. I'm fluent in French but the literature just flows in one ear and drips out the other. (You're welcome for that image.)

Elix do you monitor this site? your reply is so quick.

My answer to that is: I've got excellent timing, and I have no life.

Not to disparage or promote anyone's belief system, but I find it rather significant that three of the world's major religions - Christianity, Bhuddism, and Islam - all share very similar core concepts regarding Mankind's actions towards one another, the existence of a Creator, and the central role of Love. Not physical love, but a spiritual love that extends beyond our sense of self.

-Crash