Defense against basilisks

W.M.Y.L.G. Joe · Post by **W.M.Y.L.G. Joe** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 1:03 pm

But for most humans, the "A=not A" gets thrown out because it obviously does not fit within our rules of logic

"There's an exception to every rule, except this one."

<img src=http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/explode.gif>

Rcawley8 · Post by **Rcawley8** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 1:04 pm

Hacking the wetware...

I find concept of the effect being language-related very interesting... Lanugae is a logical construct, and is processed differently by the brain than is pure graphical information... so theoretically, an illiterate person SHOULD be immune, or have much greater resistance. The question then would be where the cutoff lies

Ya know I heard someone once say that Language is a virus, it mutates, propogates and evolves. It contains it's own form of DNA (rules) and changes the manner in which we think...

. Part of the tradeoff of resiliency is loss of speed, and that's one of the reasons that, despite our vast computational capacity, we are much, much slower than silicon computers...

I agree with most of this,
"The human mind is a like a antique watch, easily broken but difficult to put back together."
A Shadowrun quote oddly enough. But I do quibble on the speed. The human mind is phenomally fast in it's computations, and much more powerful, after all it is selfaware. (I am going to avoid the self aware debate here.) Look at Idiot-savants, we all could be that fast but for reasons that I am not going to state because I am too lazy to refamiliarize myself the reasons that the experts list, we are hampered.

Ummm, yeah. I wonder if there are literary BLITs? Looking at how much I'm thinking about this, I wonder if I could be caught in one right now? I mean, according to the story, the BLITs are language related, so could textual input, the purest form of language communication, be a valid way to transmit a BLIT? (Probably not, because the data transmission rate is so slow.)

FNORD
All your base are belong to us
A winner is you(?)

Data transmission speed is irrelevent. Read the illuminatus trilogy...

Oh, and as for basilisk defense, so far everyone has missed the easiest possible solution: Always carry a bottle of vodka with you, and drink from it constantly to maintain an elevated blood alcohol content. Not necessarily the BEST solution, but it would be effective.

I dont know much about him, but didnt Timothy Leary propose that through the use of LSD?

Wacky, wacky Timothy Leary.

But.... from what I understood, it sounded like the basilisk was a portion of an infinitely complex fractal image. Fractals are based on mathematics, not language.

Arn't Mathmatics a form of language? Cyphers and Cryptography is based on Language and math, and the move that Carl Sagan wrote, uh, I forget the name.

One book I read, so this could be utter BS, "The Free Lunch" by Spyder Robinson, claimed that sound affects the emotions. It also stated that in Tibet, there is a temple that was build in a way, that when you enter, you cant help but cry because of the pitch that resonates within. If that *is* true, than people might be programmed with sound.

Gloria · Post by **Gloria** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 3:42 pm

I am programmed pretty easily by sound. *hears synthpop and dances, hears emo and cries*

Good point.

Hraxmeim · Post by **Hraxmeim** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 3:42 pm

Actually, the language-linked "reader" BLIT was pretty unusual. Most other BLITs had astounding universality. I think that that points to a target of the most fundamental possible programming. I think if you can keep all of the signals confined to the thalamus and lower is the only chance you have of making it work. That would also explain the reader's non-lethality. It depends on learned knowledge, which is less reliable. Most other BLIT seems to go stab straight from visual cortex to medulla. Autonomic functions aren't that much different between people.

W.M.Y.L.G. Joe · Post by **W.M.Y.L.G. Joe** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 3:59 pm

I wants ta see da parrot!

MongooseQuarrel · Post by **MongooseQuarrel** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 5:27 pm

*wants to see the parrot too!* I can't comprehend it without at least seeing a /guess/ at what it looks like....the image its self, mind, not what it does

I can't be sure on the universals, but, images can strike nerves, without any litarary help...really odd ones too.
on page 165 of Abnormal Psy(never mind what Im doing with a college text-book), on the bottom...there's two little rosharks(sp)...the one with red.....I can't look at it....it's..too terrifying...it's like my heart wants to exploade and I nearly cry...I looked at it a couple minutes ago again (from my first glanceing at it and slapping my hand down to cover up it's scariness, then studing it from the see-through on the next page)..I nearly stopped doing everything but staring in fear...
now Im sure some(hey-maybe all) of you might not think it's the least bit creepy..buut..me...eh. Almost proof that your brain can shut down almost completly for no real good reason...*half wonders what the topic was-if she strayed-speaking of strayed, where did all those loose thoughts go?*hum..anyways;
imagen finding something like that that could do that to more than one person...that's too much power to hold...
perhaps, if one was raised in a conditioned socity (think 'The Giver",only a bit more, I donno-I wanna say com-ah, nazi-ish!),where one brain path, is almost fixed by all, not that they way info travels is the same, but that you wouldn't have known anyother way of taking the info, compehending.

anyways..I wanna see these piccys! at least I'll die 'happy' if they work =p, okay..'satisfied' =D

ZOMBIE USER 10925 · Post by **ZOMBIE USER 10925** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 7:09 pm

hmm, computers.

Crash, first, I must point out from my experience that not all *computers* can be called a "formal, determinisitic computational system". :)

Secondly, a purely iterative computer won't choke on A:=not (A)

it will merrily go along:

Code: Select all

A:= true; // set A to true
A:=not(A);  // set A to not(true) thus false
// now A is false

on the flip side, I've worked with expert systems that use fuzzy logic, where it tries to evaluate the "best" choice, based on certainty. if it can't evaluate a certain tree to a good enough certainty
( from -1(false) to +1(this must be it) ) it will ignore that idea. Also, safeguards are put in to prevent endless loops, either by time, or by the number of cases it examines or operations it looks at ( if the symptoms are fever and runny nose, perhaps it's a cold, to see if it's a cold, then also check for these symptoms...)

Crash · Post by **Crash** » Fri Dec 20, 2002 2:36 am

I wrote some of this yesterday, and forgot to post it, but I'm too lazy to re-edit those parts out. And too tired.

Gloria wrote:*thinks*

But.... from what I understood, it sounded like the basilisk was a portion of an infinitely complex fractal image. Fractals are based on mathematics, not language.

You're right, the basilisks are generated from fractal sets, which are the result of mathematical formulas, but ya gotta remember that I'm a mathematical midget.

I'm stepping back a bit and looking at what math itself is, and that is a logical system. Math can also be seen as a langauge that describes the physical properties of our space-time... or OTHER space-time systems, depending on what assumptions and axioms you choose to use.

You may understand calculus, but to me it's gibberish-- I can't intuitively understand the way simple mathematical functions are combined to do complicated equations, so I'm looking at what math is supposed to do-- create an ordered way to manipulate data and create information that can be interpreted and used. (And to clarify, I'm using "data" to mean accepted facts and measurable quantities, and "information" to mean data that we assign an abstract meaning to, like we understand that a "+" means a mathematical function. Organized data, that's what I'm looking for, organized data that has meaning and can be processed and manipulated by our brains.) The world existed before math was created or discovered or deduced from the very existence of the world...

And language is the same thing, it's a way to transmit data and information based on a common set of rules and practices. Spoken words are based on sounds, which can be described by mathematical functions and models. The written word is merely a symbolic representation of the original spoken words, sounds, or thoughts. "A" is a symbol, just like "3" is... So, yes, Rcawley8, in my view, math is a language of sorts. But a question that just occurred is this: If we extract information or data primarily from symbols, then how does purely graphical (non-symbolic) data get transmitted and turned into data that our brain can calculate? Of course, pattern recognition occurs without being changed into symbolic data, but it's usually a precursor to engaging data or information in symbolic form. You can't digest the contents of the day's newspaper simply by looking at the whole image, or even a part of it: The information has to be input serially by reading it, or hearing it read to you, or feeling it if you're blind.. Another interesting point: We accept symbolic data in a serial manner (one word or number at a time), yet we seem to accept graphical data in parallel, meaning that we look at a picture of a cat and say, "That's a cat." without examining each individual part, or whisker, or hair.... Hm, I'm too tired to continue thinking about that...

And on the question of language, I wonder if you might be right, Gloria... I wonder what the strong symbolism in Eastern languages like Japanese and Chinese would do to either intensify or reduce the effectiveness of a basilisk... there's a lot of abstract symbolism and representation, I've been told... and could that mean that there's less dependence on ration and logic? Might the problem be more the Western rational scientific mentality, versus a more mystical (or at least, less rigidly logical) Eastern mentality? And would that extra symbolism represent a pre-processing of information, or would it be a entirely different form of logic? And if English is the most susceptible, then would anyone whose native language is based on a derivative of English's ancestor language, Proto-Indo-European, also be more susceptible, for example, Germans?

Hraxmeim pointed out (from other sources, I assume) that "Most other BLIT seems to go stab straight from visual cortex to medulla. Autonomic functions aren't that much different between people." It seems to me that that also limits the usefulness of such an attack- autonomic functions seldom rely on optical input, and operate even in the case of the disruption or destruction of higher functions, such as in a coma or brain death. Autonomic functions are like your old desk calculator- they are hard-wired to do one thing, and the program can't really be updated or changed. They keep on operating after everything else has been knocked out.

And with all due respect to Eric, I didn't say anything about computers being formal or deterministic, merely that Berryman was reported to have considered the human mind to be a formal, deterministic computational system. : ) However, I would argue that point, that the hardware of a modern computer (or even your digital clock) does indeed represent a formal, deterministic computational system: The entire body of logic gates that perform the computations, the pathways along which data and information travel, and the registers, caches, and storage devices in which that data resides and is written to ARE fully known and mapped out. The system is deterministic because the conditions are controlled, the inputs or stimuli are limited to only those desired, and the outcome of passing a particular set of inputs through the system can be reliably predicted and experimentally verified.

And rcawley8 asked "I dont know much about him, but didnt Timothy Leary propose that through the use of LSD? Wacky, wacky Timothy Leary." The advantage to vodka is twofold: it mixes better with orange juice, and you can use it to make James Bond-style martinis. Provided, of course, that you have the foresight to bring a supply of olives with you.

Oh, yeah, and it only causes gradual degradation of your nervous, lymphic, and circulatory systems, while LSD causes sudden, drastic, and sometimes permanent changes to the chemical receptors of your nervous system. Turn on, tune in, and drop out, kids, and check your spinal columns at the door!!

ANYway, good discussion... I'd put my Dukes up and challenge all comers, but it turns out I only have the fake Duke boys, Vance and the other one. Where's Bo and Luke when you need 'em??

Crash · Post by **Crash** » Sun Dec 22, 2002 11:13 am

*Dig dig shuffle shuffle*
Hey, I found it! I found it!! The Lost Thread of the Basilisk!

... hey, isn't this the point where a giant boulder should start chasing me, or zombified natives come after me, or I'm surrounded by a horde of Nazis?

TwoDifferentSox · Post by **TwoDifferentSox** » Sun Dec 22, 2002 11:31 am

Okay, time to retype my post (now that the thread is back) too. ^.^

Crash wrote:So, yes, Rcawley8, in my view, math is a language of sorts.

I'd go further and say that math is THE langague. It is completely based on rules and constructions, you can get results you didn't know beforehand by simply following the basics as they get more and more complex. Everyone wittnessed that when they started with learning addition, then advancing to muliplikation, to squareing, etc.
With every language in the commen sense it's not as easy. They tend to have unlogical twists or influence by other languages, that make no sense but simply exists because everyone uses them. And languages change constantly, the meaning of a single word can shift within a few years, as new phrases totally opposing the normal grammatic rules appear.
So when you'd want to safe datas over a long time, you shouldn't safe them in languages - people will unlikely be able to understand it in a few hundret years anymore. I've read about this problem lately for radioactive waste depots in deserts. It has been wondered there how they could make someone in a 1000 years understandable to not enter there, because it's still dangerous.
So, and because you all read that now, <a href="http://home.t-online.de/home/Behrends-B ... pg">here's a little treat for you</a>. (selfbaked, btw) ^.^

Back to the basilisk, do you remember that something similar to it does exist/happen? Not a single picture, but a series of fast changeing pictures, it can cause epileptic spams within part of the population, as it was accidently shown with a manga episode in japan affecting it's audience a while ago.
Yes, it's not causing the problem but triggering it, though on the other hand isn't that was a basilisk is supposed to do?

Crash · Post by **Crash** » Sun Dec 22, 2002 3:49 pm

TwoDifferentSox wrote:Back to the basilisk, do you remember that something similar to it does exist/happen? Not a single picture, but a series of fast changeing pictures, it can cause epileptic spams within part of the population, as it was accidently shown with a manga episode in japan affecting it's audience a while ago.
Yes, it's not causing the problem but triggering it, though on the other hand isn't that was a basilisk is supposed to do?

True, but the seizures were caused by the rapid overstimulation of the optical centers of the brain... it's like how your heart starts beating rapidly when you see a bright flash or hear a loud bang or horn, just multiplied many times over by the frequency and intensity of the flashes shown during that cartoon. However, the basilisk doesn't operate by shocking the optical nerve; it works by transmitting specific data that the human mind cannot process; and it HAS to be information, because if you recall from the FAQ, the effect is supposed to mainly hit native English speakers... but it's still a good point to bring up, anyway.

I like the points you make about math and langauge, too, although Arthur C Clarke would argue that from this point on, the basic syntax and sounds of English (and presumably any other language that continues to be used) will remain basically the same, because of sound recordings... since future speakers will be able to hear what we sounded like, centuries in the past, their own speech will be trained by that... Clarke argues that, aside from added words and changes in usage of current ones, the rate of mutation of language will slow considerably from now on...

Pengolodh_sc · Post by **Pengolodh_sc** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 2:46 am

Crash wrote:*Dig dig shuffle shuffle*
Hey, I found it! I found it!! The Lost Thread of the Basilisk!

I did wonder where it had gone.

Crash wrote:... hey, isn't this the point where a giant boulder should start chasing me, or zombified natives come after me, or I'm surrounded by a horde of Nazis?

Nah, they're on strike - you'll have to settle for being pelted with lutefisk, or smalehove, or something like that.

MongooseQuarrel · Post by **MongooseQuarrel** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 5:18 pm

I think-what we're trying to get at, about the computers being all...big-words...for those of us who ain't none to bright (like me =p) is that computers can't think, feel or act on their own, we can write programs to make them learn-to calculate the best situations, but no matter how advanced, they're still just machines, without the programs, they couldn't do anything. The human brian is remarkably simmaler in function(how it prossess is data and stores info)-but not in the way they're set up (how they can react in anyway they suddenly feel fit, ect)

Now..mathmatical language...oysh >@;...math is not my subject, too strict...and what /is/ '2',excatly? Besides "a symbol standing for the relation of sepret objects joined as a couple and counted as one grouping but seperate indiviuals" *pant*
Not that I won't say they don't make sense....

and how about this logic-defying thing; "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?"
my brian frezzes on that one...let alone how a picture could mean a thousand words......

Crash · Post by **Crash** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 1:27 am

pengolodh_sc wrote:
Crash wrote:... hey, isn't this the point where a giant boulder should start chasing me, or zombified natives come after me, or I'm surrounded by a horde of Nazis?
Nah, they're on strike - you'll have to settle for being pelted with lutefisk, or smalehove, or something like that.

Lutefisk peltings? Augh! I'd rather face Nazis!!