Honesty time!

Postby Meredith Gran on Wed Apr 03, 2002 5:40 pm

Hanako, buddy, pal...

It seems as if the first half of your post was written by one person, and the other half someone else. You really don't seem to like my comic, do you? That's funny, because last time I checked, <b>constructive criticism</b> is given by people who want to see something improve. You just plain don't like my stuff. Which is fine by me - please don't read it. As my dear Nick would say, I'll be taking your post and filing it under "I Don't Care". Have a nice day! ^_~
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Postby Al-Azif on Wed Apr 03, 2002 10:21 pm

First-time poster of this type = throw-away name or random jerk, i.e. troll or jealous coward. Do not feed the troll and laugh at anyone who's pathetic enough to hide beneath yet another moniker. :wink:
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Postby Hanako on Thu Apr 04, 2002 6:05 am

FlamingDeth

Yes, I understand that it is manga (being japanese I would somehow kno that), and
most animes don't have characters that could kill one another simply by sitting next to
them. Tones are essential in mangas (which there are none in NGTI), although I'm sure
you're aware of that, and I think it's great that you like the backgrounds, but...guess
what... I DON'T!! This is the critical column.
Remember: Spread the joy . . . it's like cream cheese! (that
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Postby Hanako on Thu Apr 04, 2002 6:07 am

FlamingDeth

Yes, I understand that it is manga (being japanese I would somehow kno that), and
most animes don't have characters that could kill one another simply by sitting next to
them. Tones are essential in mangas (which there are none in NGTI), although I'm sure
you're aware of that, and I think it's great that you like the backgrounds, but...guess
what... I DON'T!! This is the critical column.
Remember: Spread the joy . . . it's like cream cheese! (that
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Postby Hanako on Thu Apr 04, 2002 6:12 am

I post this message twice if, by chance, you missed it the first time.

-Hanako ^_^
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Postby Almechazel on Thu Apr 04, 2002 11:15 am

On 2002-04-04 06:05, Hanako wrote:

And for the record, constructive criticism is when a person points out
the fault of another, so that that particular person will be aware of their faults, and correct
them (which is improving.....characters, storylines, backgrounds... yeah I pretty much
think that was covered). Perhaps it
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Postby Almechazel on Thu Apr 04, 2002 11:17 am

forgot t say it...

It's not constructive if all you do is say "I don't like this and this and this and this and this...." you need a bit more to make it constructive.
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Postby Al-Azif on Thu Apr 04, 2002 12:25 pm

Well, I'll play along with this and examine your comments point by point, so that you, "Hanako," have a better understanding of what constitutes a good critique and what doesn't.

On 2002-04-03 16:39, Hanako wrote:
For NGTI:

I just have a few things to say about this comic (NGTI). In Meredith's defense, I understand why she doesn't post comics daily because contrary to popular belief, Meredith does have a "Life" outside the comic book realm (you do don't you?) This maybe the only "REAL" criticism Meredith will ever receive.


It's unclear what you mean by '"REAL"' here, and you seem to be defending her against it, at any rate, a contrary tone to the rest of your post.

I have come across a few problems with the comic. One, the art is okay, I really don't care if it's in marker or CG, but is there any way to improve on the faces? I mean, how pointy are they gonna get? A bit more expression in the faces wouldn't hurt either (C'MON THEY'RE TOO STICK-FIGURED).


This is a somewhat constructive bit of criticism. Its tone is slightly antagonistic, but we'll skip over it to address the more inflammatory comments below.

Second, what the HELL kinda story are you writing?? Most of what I've read are pieces that I've either seen on TV shows, or read in other comics. Some fresh ideas would be nice (be bold!).


As FlamingDeth mentioned, Meredith didn't ask for storyline/plot/character development critiques at this time because she felt comfortable with it.

Third, please kill that bird--it's just waisted paper and ink.


This is where your post begins to devolve into worthless prattle. How exactly, is Kiwi the bird wasted paper and ink? It's not at all helpful to make a troll-ish comment like this and not follow it up without any sort of justification.

Finally, add a bit of background. A few lines and color don't cut it.


This is your opinion, and a totally valid one, although again you choose to use unnecessarily antagonistic wording here as well. Or as it'd be said elsewhere, "You don't have what they call, the social skillz." Usually when you choose between the club and the carrot, the carrot is the superior choice, if you get my drift.

Well Meredith, if you are reading this, please take this to heart: Work on your art!


This is your opinion, and again a valid one, if not wrongheaded. This is the only place where you criticize and don't have overly aggressive diction, but that's quickly ruined with the following line ...

You need help money-wise for a convention, which is sad, because you're not that good of an artist. Quite frankly, I'd be ashamed if I were you. I'll be surprised if you take in 600 dollars.


Quite clearly, a lot of other people feel differently, specifically the people who've already contributed or plan to keep contributing. Do I feel a bit of jealousy, here?

You wrote that today's comic strip would be the last--please keep your promise.


Anything positive that might possibly be gleaned from your post is instantly and completely overturned by this stupid, thoughtless, and overtly hostile statement. The internet is much like television, i.e. if you don't like the site's content, you are more than free to "flip the channel." The only reason you'd stick around to bash something you so clearly dislike is either a burning sense of envy or you get your rocks off of being a forum troll. Either way, you've already disproven your own case with your first post, which is clearly not a serious critique. Of course, there's always the possibility, and it's one which I'm certainly not willing to discount at this phase, that you're simply an imbecile.
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Postby Almechazel on Thu Apr 04, 2002 1:38 pm

HEAR HEAR!
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Postby Cale on Thu Apr 04, 2002 6:01 pm

Ahh, see now this is why I like Ikonboards and others that are similar to it. If some half-wit decides to be an ass, you can just go and edit their post. If it's done well enough, it's hilarious. In fact, at my own board[not a webcomic board. I have no artistic skills whatsoever], I even made up a special rank for people like that, where all they can do is post. Can't edit their profile or anything. Heheh. *evil grin*
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Postby Hanako on Fri Apr 05, 2002 5:47 am

I really gotta hand it you guys! You never disappoint me! No matter what I write, like clockwork, you always reply (with some lame come-back too!!). I mean, I thought I was bored, but what type of person actually takes the time to study dictionaries of a definition to simply copy it and paste it in a post (what, does that make you look good?)??? Or one that would actually (this really astounded me), take the time to analyze an entire letter (I mean ENTIRE letter, piece-by-piece)??? If you're trying defend NGTI, you'll have to do better than that. It would probably better for you to try and criticise it because your defense is very weak. Meredith may have a life, but the rest of you it is questionable. Well Nick, I understand you drove quite a distance to see Meredith--what a shame (hope you received a refund)!

With All Sincerity,
-Hanako :smile:
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Postby Al-Azif on Fri Apr 05, 2002 8:04 am

The real question is this: Why are you still posting, Hanako? Are you really that sad and pathetic? You've made whatever "point" you had to make, and all you're doing is further embarrassing yourself. You may laugh at the people who reply to your posts in defense of NGTI, but you're the one who's going out of your way to stay here and make inflammatory comments. That means you have the least social life of all present because the rest are here because they want to be.

Everyone else still posts here because we enjoy the comic and want to see it improve through honest constructive criticism, and I have the additional impetus to read and post in this forum because Meredith is my girlfriend; but you have no such rationale since it's clear you dislike the comic and enjoy being a troll. All that means is that you're a sad pitiable lump of human flesh who is going out of his way to try and get a rise out of the people who normally inhabit this forum. I can't even be angry at you because you're so miserable and clueless. Further posting against you would give me no more satisfaction than beating up a 6 year-old on crutches since you can't even post anything intellectually challenging or, at this point where you're resorting to pointing fingers and name-calling, even vaguely interesting.

So, without further ado, let me officially raise the "Don't Feed the Troll" sign.
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Postby Kappo on Fri Apr 05, 2002 12:01 pm

Hiya,

WHOA there peeples... this is a constructive criticism board for Meredith's benefit... not a... flaming board for... nobody's benefit.. I say just drop it...

Tho this may seem self contradicting in a way, I'm going to briefly address Hanako's remarks...

Look, the only reason that everyone else is not happi with your "constructive criticism", is because your wording appears to make an attack on Meredith's artwork/storyline/comic. Though it's fine to say wat ya like and dun' like... it should be to her benefit. Saying that you'd be ashamed if you were her does not help her fix anything at all (would it help her if she were to actualli feel ashamed?). Likewise, your responses to the replies of the other critics/fans of this comic all have a similar tone to it... one that does not debate nor discuss... rather, one that argues and attacks. This is not a problem, since wat you guys talk about amongst each other is your own business, but I believe it is taking the primary focus off of the constructive criticism for Meredith, which is wat this thread is for. Messages pointing out character flaws and disapproval of a person belong in the mailbox (or e-mail box) of that respective person... or someone else, if you want to talk behind their backs... not here...

So I just want to kindly ask Hanako and the others involved in this discussion to at least take it to another thread... thanks a lot for your time, all...

(By the way, I have chosen sides, just like everyone else... but please take a lesson from this post and note how I do not say anything that would incite anger in even a minutely reasonable person. Discussion and "constructive criticism" do not involve name-calling. In this case, they should be used to point out the errors of the ART, not the artIST.)

Best wishes to y'all...

~Kap

...Asha, wat do you mean, "Wai do I talk like dat"? -_^
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Postby Hanako on Fri Apr 05, 2002 8:56 pm

Al, you can lower your sign with consolation--nobody is goin to feed you.
I really have to credit Kap tho. Whether whose side he's taken, I really don't care. At least he can write something that doesn't make me yawn after reading it. I'm not out for sides or appeal (tho I'm surprised to receive emails from different people, and amazingly, they like my comments). Actually, I'm just waiting to see if someone will actually come up with a good blaze for me. Concerning Meredith, I did only what she asked--Flamed her. If no one likes it.... LOL TUFF!

-Hanako
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Postby Frodo1223 on Fri Apr 05, 2002 9:02 pm

Meridith, hi again, i added some constructive critism before, and i realise that many other comics are not primarily funny. i just would like to go back to the days when i could be proud of being the first in school to quote your funny funny jokes, but now, that doesn't seem to happen. the last time i did that was "lisence to be a badass". that was the last time i can remeber chuckling at this comic. that was pretty damn funny in the context of the story line. you should do that more. that's more of what i meant in my first crtism post.

i have nothing bad to say about your art itself, infact, i use it as a model to better my own drawing.

this was the first webcomic i started reading regularly. the funnyness of it made me want to read more comics, and you had so many handy links. if i wasn't refered to this site, i probably wouldn't have half the adresses in my favorites list.

my last thing to say is, great job, and keep it up, and please at least try to add little jokes, even in a serious story line.
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Postby Frodo1223 on Fri Apr 05, 2002 9:09 pm

Meridith, hi again, i added some constructive critism before, and i realise that many other comics are not primarily funny. i just would like to go back to the days when i could be proud of being the first in school to quote your funny funny jokes, but now, that doesn't seem to happen. the last time i did that was "lisence to be a badass". that was the last time i can remeber chuckling at this comic. that was pretty damn funny in the context of the story line. you should do that more. that's more of what i meant in my first crtism post.

i have nothing bad to say about your art itself, infact, i use it as a model to better my own drawing.

this was the first webcomic i started reading regularly. the funnyness of it made me want to read more comics, and you had so many handy links. if i wasn't refered to this site, i probably wouldn't have half the adresses in my favorites list.

my last thing to say is, great job, and keep it up, and please at least try to add little jokes, even in a serious story line.
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Postby Frodo1223 on Fri Apr 05, 2002 9:10 pm

oops, sorry about the repeat
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Postby FlamingDeth on Sat Apr 06, 2002 2:14 am

Hanako, I forgot entirely that she asked to be flamed. In that respect, though I still disagree with you in just about every way, I retract my deragatory statements towards you, and step out from between you and anyone else who wants to tell you to bugger off...

~Flaming "GAH! I always forget little details like that..." Deth

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Postby Damonk13 on Sat Apr 06, 2002 9:09 am

things to work on:

2) perspective: you've made some great progress already, but still scrunch things close together sometimes, like it was squeezed up against plated glass... this is an example of some perspective problems, from both depth and width: the floor tiles aren't set properly in the frst panel, also, look at the door and how close it seems to the bed there, and then look at the door and where it is in the splash panel... major inconsistency in perdspective and spatial positioning, actually... But this comic looks a little more ruished than others -- still, i use it as an example of something to work on...

this one here offers up examples of panel-to-panel inconsistencies in perspectoive, as well as disappearing objects and such... look at the hat rack in the first and second panel, or the magically disappearing pencils, or the cash register that starts out fully on the table then finds itself somehow half-hovering off the edge of the table in the third panel...

proposed suggestions: try working some reference materials to work on proper perspective, like drawing your room from all sorts of different angles, observing how line-of-sight does that whole foreshortening trick, then try to apply it to your cartoons. In terms of shifting objects, remember how you first set them, and keep them fixed in that spot, whether you see them in succeeding panels or no -- once something's been set in the first pabnel, the reader can remember that it's there, even if it isn't in succeeding panels, due to a different "camera shot"

2) storyline pacing: while not touching the plotline, i will remind you of an old comment i made when critiquing you in KS Critics -- you can be a little too jumpy sometimes, or skip bits or rush bits, etc.

But again, you have improved on this a LOT since I first mentioned last year, but even little hiccups like say here, when you show us something that could be interesting, and the last panel is set up to make the reader think something will come from this "information" person... and then you completely leave it aside, a forgotten link.

also, i've noticed that you've slowed down your pacing considerably, which is fine and all, but you still seem to mostly (not always) stick to your four-panel format... i would suggest that you let yourself experiment a little more, and not restrict yourself like you do currently -- feel free to offer up pages, freaky panels, whatever you feel will better help the "feel" of the story at hand

***

there, a few piece of hopefully constructive observations. Hope they are helpful.
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Postby Kappo on Sun Apr 07, 2002 12:09 pm

Hiya,

Just wanted to point out that this particular comic is great! You should have more like this.. tho it's realli hard to plan it out like that.

http://kiwi.keenspace.com/d/20010108.html

Note the "Penny" pun thingie and the coo joke... (: I laughed so hard on this one.. possibly one of mai favorites.. great use of humor.. (:

Oh, and a complaint.. heh.... your drawing of the ddr machine in the earlier comics needs more detail. (:

~Kap
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