5/15

Lee Herold · Post by **Lee Herold** » Tue May 15, 2001 12:26 am

I think Michael hid his meds under his tongue again and spit them out when Nurse Ratchet wasn't looking.------------------
---Lee
<A HREF="http://www.choppingblock.org" TARGET=_blank>Chopping Block</A>
<A HREF="http://www.altbrand.com" TARGET=_blank>Alternative Brand Studios</A>

Somebody Strange · Post by **Somebody Strange** » Tue May 15, 2001 1:04 am

Pardon the length of this response. Usually topics like this only occur on Howard's boards, and I'm known there as being rather prolific and verbose. BoxJam, if you'd rather see this entire conversation vanish, you will not offend me in the least. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Michael:
As regards McVeigh -- if he had done the exact same thing in another country during wartime, he'd be held up as a hero, and John Q. Public would gloat over the broken bodies of those four-year-old towelheads, who obviously had it coming to them or they wouldn't have been born somewhere other than America.Timothy McVeigh my ass. A convenient scapegoat so the rest of us don't have to think about anything deeper than who got voted off the freakin island.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>My knee-jerk reaction in almost every situation is to try to make peace with whoever speaks loudest. I readily admit that I tend to be a coward who will agree rather than rock the boat and/or believe whatever is most convenient at the time.That said, I don't think I agree with you, if I understand what you're saying. I do agree that the American populace has some twisted ideas; we have "pro-life" advocates who kill abortion doctors; I went to a fundamentalist school in which some teachers claimed that "anyone who did not do their patriotic duty during Vietnam" was "sinning" because "America is a country founded on God's principles" and "rebellion against authority is a trick of the devil". Now I'm not trying to claim that Vietnam vets are either specifically evil or specifically patriotic. I wasn't born yet then, but I have done a lot of research that all pointed to the same conclusion -- there was too much information to make any kind of black-and-white morality call on the big picture. I can condemn certain actions and praise certain actions.I do agree with you that we tend to take a brighter view of Americans committing crimes like that when it's for a wartime cause. However, the public outrage over massacres that the media does report on tends to run pretty high. It does indeed bother me that McVeigh is demonized to a greater extent than soldiers "following orders" in committing massacres like My Lai (sp?). However, I don't see Timothy McVeigh as "a scapegoat". He killed over 160 people in an act of terrorism and has referred to the children killed as "collateral damage". Yes, he says he did it because of strong convictions that he believes were patriotic, and yes, the soldiers who have committed similar atrocities to foreigners may have acted with the same type of motivation. I can't read minds, I don't know. But I believe that McVeigh's actions were wrong, and he should be punished. I personally am against the death penalty, and yet it's so hard to not want a man who can't seem to acknowledge the inherent wrongness of his prior actions to be put to death. HOWEVER, there is a fine line between justice and revenge, and I will admit that I'm glad I'm not in the position to determine his fate, because I don't know which one his death would bring about.Soldiers who commit similar crimes are just as guilty as McVeigh, and should be held responsible. They may just be following orders, but (here's the old argument) so were the Nazis. If you want to make the argument that soldiers are trained not to question orders and "they didn't have a choice", I'll stipulate that on the condition that the people who gave them the orders are guilty. I think the trouble with wartime crimes is (a) so few of them are reported with any certainty and accuracy, and (b) it's often hard to pin a name to the act. With McVeigh, we believe he did it and he agrees. It may be that the ease with which his name reached the mass public has contributed to the hatred with which America views him. Soldiers are very rarely acknowledged individually. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The current age is a very, very good age to live in. We are more civilized and less murderous than H. sapiens has ever been. Read some history sometime.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Michael, here I completely agree with you. I really am an optimist at heart, and I think the human race is getting better and better. I know that there may be more violent crime and plague and bad weather and environmental catastrophes and decaf coffee, but I believe humanity is acknowledging its errors and striving to survive. I'm even glad that it's newsworthy when a black man is killed merely for being black -- a hundred years ago, it wouldn't have made a ripple here in the US. I would have gladly picked someone other than Timothy McVeigh for my previous rant -- someone like Charles Manson or that doctor in Britain convicted of killing 15 patients (estimates suggest he may have murdered as many as 300) -- but McVeigh was a timely topic that I figured everyone would recognize. Looking back, I should have stayed on the humorous side and picked someone we all would like to vilify, like Kathie Lee Gifford or Richard Simmons. However, I can't agree that McVeigh is a scapegoat UNLESS you mean that his treatment seems unfair IN RELATION TO soldiers who commit atrocities during wartime. In that context, I will agree, but I don't think he deserves less animosity -- merely that those soldiers deserve more. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>But we have a long way to go. Let me tell you what I think about that -- the absolute best way to fight John Q. murdering bastard Public is to have a child or two and raise them with love, understanding, and literacy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If you will forgive my absolute and total seriousness and vulnerability here...Amen, Michael. God grant that it be so.--Strange/Dave------------------
<A HREF="http://viciouslies.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Vicious Lies.</A> Come for the Grand Opening! Stay for the <strike>wieners</strike> <strike>weiners</strike> <strike>weeners</strike> Coca-Cola!
Neurotic -- sane, but unhappy about it.[This message has been edited by Somebody Strange (edited 05-15-2001).]

Somebody Strange · Post by **Somebody Strange** » Tue May 15, 2001 1:13 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by BoxJam:
So, ahh...best one ever, nd and Somebody Strange?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, at the moment I can't think of one that made me laugh harder. There have been several that come close, but I don't have the necessary few hours to go through the archives and locate any that I liked more. I've always felt the same way about kids' books... even as a kid.--Strange/Dave------------------
<A HREF="http://viciouslies.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Vicious Lies.</A> Come for the Grand Opening! Stay for the <strike>wieners</strike> <strike>weiners</strike> <strike>weeners</strike> Coca-Cola!
Neurotic -- sane, but unhappy about it.[This message has been edited by Somebody Strange (edited 05-15-2001).]

Frodoelf · Post by **Frodoelf** » Tue May 15, 2001 2:31 am

poo------------------
----Frodo
http://buber.8m.com

Michael · Post by **Michael** » Tue May 15, 2001 3:21 am

poo pa doo.Lee, yer a girl.BoxJam, nice try on unchanging the subject. Today's was certainly in the top ten or so, although to date my favorite is the one where nobody said "the" that day. But today's is very good. The look on BoxJam's face is just plain perfect.SS, I wasn't attacking you. I think if anyone (besides the dear peepul), it was the corporate media, who need quick and easy answers like McVeigh because they sell papers. Revenge? Of course it's revenge. Why else would they even ask whether his execution should be broadcast? It's been a while since we had a war, so America really, really wants to watch somebody die. Painfully, if possible.In case y'all are wondering, my religion is Quakerism. Granted, I'm a Quaker who likes martial arts flicks, but a Quaker nonetheless, and killing is wrong. Always. Killing McVeigh isn't going to make a bit of difference to the 160 dead, and if their families want revenge, well, it's not going to make them better people or less in pain to have gotten it. That the media support the idea that killing McVeigh is natural and a good thing is one more reason to despise the corporate mindset. Bread, circuses, and the guillotine. Meantime, the "leadership" of the nation is siphoning our gas tanks.Sigh. But things are still better than they've ever been, and getting better. It's just that things for almost all of history have been so astoundingly horrible that it's hard really to grasp it.Pessimistic optimism?------------------
<A HREF="http://www.vivtek.com/toonbots/" TARGET=_blank>Toonbots.</A> Only the coolest of people like it. You want to be cool, don't you?

Frodoelf · Post by **Frodoelf** » Tue May 15, 2001 4:06 am

AHH! I must butt in! Why is killing McVeigh so wrong? what use does he have to society now, besides taking up tax dollars and breathing my air? I mean, what harm would the world feel from killing him? If ANYTHING you would want him to die, so that he can be rightfully punished in hell, right? i mean, i don't believe in hell and all that, but don't quakers believe in divine retribution and the like? : <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspace.com/forums/tongue.gif">unches mainstream religion in the groin::------------------
----Frodo
http://buber.8m.com

Toddandpenguin · Post by **Toddandpenguin** » Tue May 15, 2001 5:05 am

HA! I loved today's comic.
nothing clever to add--just wanted to say "good one, Boxjam."~dave------------------
<A HREF="http://toddandpenguin.keenspace.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://toddandpenguin.keenspace.com/</A>

Michael · Post by **Michael** » Tue May 15, 2001 6:08 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by frodoelf:
AHH! I must butt in! Why is killing McVeigh so wrong?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not to put too fine a point on it, but killing him demeans his killers. I (personally) am hardly saying he deserves a good life -- and prisons offer a better life than most poor people can afford, good strategy there -- but a society which condones the death punishment cheapens all life.His death won't make anything better. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
 what use does he have to society now, besides taking up tax dollars and breathing my air?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>His use to society is a fiction. What's your use to society? What's mine? For God's sake, what's Lee Herold's use to society? Should we have a Ministry of Use to Society to judge everyone's right to continued life? Should we burn welfare babies? They're hardly of great use to you or me; let's grind'em up and feed'em to cattle, then they'll be worth a certain number of cents per pound.Money (regardless of Freedman and the neoliberal view of economics) really isn't everything, and we all know it, even though we're afraid to say it out loud for fear of being laughed at. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I mean, what harm would the world feel from killing him?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hardly any, in the larger scheme of things. Not much more than when Shell burns an African village because it happens to sit on an oilfield, eh?But when the media make it a Fun Thing to watch him fry, and then they don't see why teenagers think it's cool to fry their friends, somebody ain't quite with it. (Yes, I know I'm exagerating.) <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> If ANYTHING you would want him to die, so that he can be rightfully punished in hell, right? i mean, i don't believe in hell and all that, but don't quakers believe in divine retribution and the like?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No. Or at least, not all of us. (Old Quaker joke: "Are you a member of an organized religion?" "No, I'm a Quaker.") However, if we did, then it would be divine retribution that's at stake. As divinity is eternal, it makes no difference whether it happens now or in fifty years. But when you kill McVeigh, you rob him of any chance to have more positive influences later in life.You may say, "It's impossible -- he's beyond that." Yep. You're making it so. Especially if he's dead. The point of divine retribution is that it isn't our decision.Now, I for one don't believe in divine retribution. The very concept of "retribution" is flawed, as I hope I made clear earlier. He can't "pay his debt to society" by dying -- the debt is infinite, it can't be paid, and dying won't make any difference anyway. All that his death will achieve is that it makes it that much easier to believe that the government has the right to kill you when it says it's OK. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>punches mainstream religion in the groin<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think I'm quite safe in saying that Quakerism is hardly mainstream.
[edited because of exagger ... exager ... blowing things out of proportion. I hate that word.]
------------------
<A HREF="http://www.vivtek.com/toonbots/" TARGET=_blank>Toonbots.</A> Only the coolest of people like it. You want to be cool, don't you?[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 05-15-2001).]

Michael · Post by **Michael** » Tue May 15, 2001 6:19 am

Wait. Isn't this the Schlock board? Damn you, SS, you've fooled me for the last time!------------------
<A HREF="http://www.vivtek.com/toonbots/" TARGET=_blank>Toonbots.</A> Only the coolest of people like it. You want to be cool, don't you?

Lee Herold · Post by **Lee Herold** » Tue May 15, 2001 6:23 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Michael:
Lee, yer a girl.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Never gets old, dude. Ah, originality. Have you noticed BoxJam, Burke, Guigar (the originator), in fact most everyone else, has dropped it by now? But if it still amuses you, whatever...

Lord Emsworth · Post by **Lord Emsworth** » Tue May 15, 2001 6:58 am

Hmmm... The death penalty is a rather complex issue. Regarding McVeigh, while I don't have any great objections to his execution, the pure vindictive glee which certain journalists and individuals have displayed regarding it makes one wonder. Those who believ the death penalty serves a purpose would suggest that it might serve as a possible deterrant. However, there is some question as to how effective this is. If the sole reason preventing one from taking another person's life is the possibility of being executed for that crime if they were caught, then one probably needs help. If such were the case, and the individual had persuaded themselves that they could successfully get away with it, well, there would be no reason why they wouldn't kill someone, unless restrained by others. Yet, there is the long tradition that one should be punished for one's crimes. Just as my mother would spank me with the belt for disobedience, so we execute murederers, justifying the deed by reminding ourself of what that person did. In some ways, teh death penalty represents the "eye for an eye"philosophy. Is the public executioner committing murder, however? Some justify this not only because of the murderer's acts, but by pointing out that the executioner does not choose who to kill, just as killing in wartime is often justified by suggesting that soldiers are taught to view the opposition as merely the enemy and not as people and to not think about the fact that they are depriving another person or persons of their right to life. Yet, murder is serious, and in my opinion, there is a definite need to punish those individuals, or at least, for those that were mentally ill at the time, provide them with proper treatment. There is also the perceived need to safeguard society from the possible further threat of murderers and serial killers and such. The death penalty is one way of dealing with this, ensuring that there is no possible way that the killer can strike again. In this case, some liken it to shooting a rabid dog which attacked or killed a child. Yet, is this truly justified? Furthermore, as Michael said, has this increasingly become more a matter of personal vindictiveness and vengeance? Frankly, I'm not entirely sure, but the United States is one fo the few "developed" Western nations which continues to retain the death penalty. Also, it cannot be denied that our justice system is far from infallible, and wrongful convictions have occurred (though off-hand I can't recall any murder cases), but the death penalty leaves no margin for human error. Incidentally, though, a few articles I read that argued against McVeigh's execution claimed that it would be too easy for him, he deserves the greater sufferring which comes with rotting his life away in prison. Well, at least we no longer have public hangings, but the possibility of televising McVeigh's execution is an uncomfortable reminder of that practice. "Hey, Aunt Bertha, y'all got the fried chicken ready? They're hangin' Ol' Rafe Janney t'day, and we want good seats!" Still, like the meta-cartoonist said, it's not as bad as it has been. And regarding one's use to society, Michael pointed out the flaw in that. If one's right to live was based on one's perceived current or past contributions to society, well, I know I'd probably be dead by now. Am I making any sense to anyone, or do I just need more sleep?

Nd · Post by Nd » Tue May 15, 2001 7:57 am

Today's is hands down my favorite doodle ever!------------------
<A HREF="http://ironshamrock.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Iron Shamrock</A>, the comic that's still half-assed in all it's glory after all these years...

BoxJam · Post by **BoxJam** » Tue May 15, 2001 8:01 am

You can see the doodle at all?Either the server's suddenly up, or I can't
see because I've gone blind, because, uh...I withdraw the second theory.------------------
<A HREF="http://www.boxjamsdoodle.com/" TARGET=_blank>BoxJam's Doodle</A> - the ballast
that keeps <A HREF="http://www.altbrand.com/" TARGET=_blank>Alt Brand</A> down.

Lee Herold · Post by **Lee Herold** » Tue May 15, 2001 8:24 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by BoxJam:
You can see the doodle at all?Either the server's suddenly up, or I can't
see because I've gone blind, because, uh...I withdraw the second theory.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'll bet you can't type either 'cause your palms are too hairy.
------------------
---Lee
<A HREF="http://www.choppingblock.org" TARGET=_blank>Chopping Block</A>
<A HREF="http://www.altbrand.com" TARGET=_blank>Alternative Brand Studios</A>

Somebody Strange · Post by **Somebody Strange** » Tue May 15, 2001 8:51 am

I agree with nd -- this is my favorite doodle so far. I really wish I had kids so I could have drawn this first.--Strange/DaveP.S. -- I'd like to recant my former statement about wishing I had kids. I'm not ready. But I still wish I had drawn this first.

Michael · Post by **Michael** » Tue May 15, 2001 9:25 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Somebody Strange:
I'm not ready.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>BAHAHAHAHAHAH! "Ready." Heh, heh, heh.------------------
<A HREF="http://www.vivtek.com/toonbots/" TARGET=_blank>Toonbots.</A> Only the coolest of people like it. You want to be cool, don't you?

Somebody Strange · Post by **Somebody Strange** » Tue May 15, 2001 9:55 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Michael:
 BAHAHAHAHAHAH! "Ready." Heh, heh, heh.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Good point.I guess I meant "the idea, while it certainly has its seemingly hardwired albeit inscrutable appeal, still makes me break out in a cold sweat after a moment of consideration; however, that moment, during which my logic centers are overruled by whatever genetically procreative quirk makes people want children, is becoming progressively longer and more difficult to fend off, leading me to the possibly illogical assumption that the latter paternal desire will eventually conquer common sense. Furthermore, as my wife battles a similar, corresponding maternal desire that will also weaken her resolve to remain without offspring, we will likely reach a point at which producing life together actually appears to be 'a good idea'. This is the most absurd thing I can think of. I still occasionally forget to give the dog fresh water, and I think about taking on the responsibility of an infant?!?! Am I nuts?? Even if I can counter the horrible disservice of bringing someone into a world in which we have people like Timothy McVeigh by acknowledging all the good things -- like pizza and coffee and sunsets and more coffee -- there's the whole issue of growing up.... Not the child. Me. Whose bright idea was it to give me live, active sperm with the capability of creating new life before I could remember to write down how much I paid for a new computer pinball game in the checkbook ledger? Huh? What's the big idea there, God? Huh?? I can't even commit to a decision about what to eat for lunch, and I'm supposed to help a little innocent child understand the difference between right and wrong? I've been known to play with matches, and I'm supposed to protect a young life from harm? Whose idea WAS this? And where in the name of all that's holy did I leave my pills?"--Strange/Dave------------------
<A HREF="http://viciouslies.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Vicious Lies.</A> Come for the Grand Opening! Stay for the <strike>wieners</strike> <strike>weiners</strike> <strike>weeners</strike> Coca-Cola!
Neurotic -- sane, but unhappy about it.[This message has been edited by Somebody Strange (edited 05-15-2001).]

Michael · Post by **Michael** » Tue May 15, 2001 10:29 am

Ah. Obviously, you are ready.------------------
<A HREF="http://www.vivtek.com/toonbots/" TARGET=_blank>Toonbots.</A> Only the coolest of people like it. You want to be cool, don't you?

Michael · Post by **Michael** » Tue May 15, 2001 10:36 am

Sorry, there's just one thing I find I have to say. As regards McVeigh -- if he had done the exact same thing in another country during wartime, he'd be held up as a hero, and John Q. Public would gloat over the broken bodies of those four-year-old towelheads, who obviously had it coming to them or they wouldn't have been born somewhere other than America.Shell Corporation cheerfully kills people regularly in Africa to ensure your low gas prices.The current age is a very, very good age to live in. We are more civilized and less murderous than H. sapiens has ever been. Read some history sometime.But we have a long way to go. Let me tell you what I think about that -- the absolute best way to fight John Q. murdering bastard Public is to have a child or two and raise them with love, understanding, and literacy.Timothy McVeigh my ass. A convenient scapegoat so the rest of us don't have to think about anything deeper than who got voted off the freakin island.
------------------
<A HREF="http://www.vivtek.com/toonbots/" TARGET=_blank>Toonbots.</A> Only the coolest of people like it. You want to be cool, don't you?

Michael · Post by **Michael** » Tue May 15, 2001 10:44 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lee Herold:
 But if it still amuses you, whatever...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>OK. Thanks!