Now this is interesting...

Postby Keith on Sun Mar 31, 2002 8:50 pm

Dissension in the ranks....could this be the Times of War starting at last?

I have to say, I actually don't think Stu deserves expulsion. He's really not much more than a less sensitive Tim.

As an aside, I feel special! This is the first time I've been online and on the site as a new strip is posted! :grin:
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Postby LordNicodareus on Sun Mar 31, 2002 8:57 pm

Well hell, thats about right. I mean, Stu is a callous redneck bastard and yes, he is deserving of a good punch to the head, but Meighan(I think)has it right. He probably didn't get the same values we got instilled into us as children. I know a few people who think of women as objects, hell, my dad is one of the most racsist people I know, so is my grandpa. I dont hold it against them, because I dont think they know any better...neither does Stu...
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Postby J. on Sun Mar 31, 2002 9:33 pm

Well, guess I'm not as openminded as y'all. My dad's a bigoted, mysogynistic bastard, and he tried to instill his beliefs in me for nearly twenty years. I resisted it. It's too easy to condone damning attitudes because "people don't know any better." Sorry, don't buy it. I don't believe in anything like an innate moral compass, but people can shrug off their upbringing. You don't have to be told that something you're taught is wrong or untrue - you're a human being. You can think for yourself, draw your own conclusions. Especially once you've been exposed to outside ideas, if you continue to adhere to blatantly wrong and bigoted values, you do so deliberately.

Besides, in Stu's specific case, look back at how he treated Guth. He's not just crude and offensive, he's cruel and vicious. I'm willing to bet that if Meighan and Tim saw that little episode, the vote would've been unanimous.
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Postby My name is Kenny on Sun Mar 31, 2002 9:41 pm

I can not see any reason at all to keep him in the club.

Just telling the truth as he sees it? I know this is trite, but so were the Nazis.

He needs the Club? For what?? Are they gonna change him into a better, more tolerant person? I mean, I realize this is a fantasy comic strip, but you can only suspend so much disbelief.

And honestly, what can he provide for the club that Tim can't, besides abject stupidity?

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Postby Loxley on Sun Mar 31, 2002 9:49 pm

Well, remember when Guth was dissing Stu? I think Stu called it right... Guth wasn't talking to Stu, he was talking to *himself* I don't think that Stu was any crueller than Guth was... (note that smarmy self-rightous smirk on his face).

*I* would vote no, as well. And then BEAT some manners into him, in private.

If he's really a lost cause, he's gonna wash out of college before long anyway, and they'll be rid of him. Else, he'll grow up.

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Postby Catz Bartlett on Sun Mar 31, 2002 9:49 pm

My vote goes to letting him stay in the club.

I'd say that the reason that Tim says that he should stay in the club is a deceptively simple one - Tim sees himself in Stu.

We all know that Tim is the 'loveable-hateable, crass, womanizing kinda guy' character in the club - kinda like Joey on 'Friends' - but I would put money on the prospect that Tim was pretty much like Stu before he joined. Hell, all Stu's done is BE Tim, but moreso.

And also, as I've said before, I hold firmly to the belief that no-one's irredeemable...
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Postby Czhorat on Sun Mar 31, 2002 11:26 pm

I couldn't disagree more; Stu is NOT Tim. Both can come across as crude and womanizing, but Tim seems to KNOW that he's crude. He's certainly in on the joke, and seems to have a knack for pushing people just far enough to keep it interesting, but not so far that he really hurts their feelings. Stu either has no idea that there IS a line or does not care about crossing it.
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Postby LordNicodareus on Sun Mar 31, 2002 11:42 pm

I wholeheartedly agree, Czhorat. Tim is like myself. I'll annoy the hell outta ya, but there is a point I will not cross. Stu seems to not know of a line. In Stu's first appearance, where is he? Talking to some frat boys about partying and womanizing and all that. And anyhoo, if Stu were to stay in the club he would cause disruption. The club would split, and...well, maybe the General does have something to do with it all...
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Postby Doublespeak on Mon Apr 01, 2002 12:11 am

The problem here is that voting is being done on the spot, and emotions are running a little high.

Something like that should be done during a meeting, with reasons being presented, and then a vote. Or have a dry vote, then present reasons, and then the real vote.

And making it so that the decision has to be unanimous is a horrible way to decide things. Majority rules.
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Postby Shatteredtower on Mon Apr 01, 2002 1:10 am

On 2002-04-01 00:11, Doublespeak wrote:
The problem here is that voting is being done on the spot, and emotions are running a little high.


I agree fully with this. This is not Rikk's proudest moment. Nor it is Will's - he is using this opening to ram an unconsidered decision through.

Something like that should be done during a meeting, with reasons being presented, and then a vote. Or have a dry vote, then present reasons, and then the real vote.


Possibly.

And making it so that the decision has to be unanimous is a horrible way to decide things. Majority rules.


I've never been fond of fascism - there are times that the majority doesn't have the right to dictate final decision. Since the majority is large enough here, this isn't one of them.

But if the issue was more divisive, there'd be a problem. And I can't be sure that it wouldn't be more divisive had it been done properly. (Probably not divisive enough to matter, though.)
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Postby Nullset on Mon Apr 01, 2002 8:38 am

The General has now initated an action. It occured when Rikk and the Skifies on average stopped defending Fandom. Kath will curse her before this day is out.

The alien invasion has been averted. Dr. Why is still in the car, as far as we know. Stu's reaction isn't seen, though we can make some good guesses.

There are three timestreams I can see easily stemming from this event. The one where they vote Yea for Stu's removal, but The General doesn't interfere. The one where they vote Yea, but The General says "Now", the one we're seeing. There's also the one where the Skifies don't follow Rikk's lead, and vote Nay, and the General doesn't do anything, as the conditions for her to act aren't right.

Going back a few seconds and analysing the decision whether to take the vote or not is so improbable as to not be worth investigating, IMHO.
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Postby Tom the Fanboy on Mon Apr 01, 2002 2:21 pm

I'm glad I'm no longer alone in defending Stu, or at least his right to be in the club.

I I was with the Skiffies I would still probably just vote Aye for more petty reasons but being out here allows me to think more clearly.

Tim's reason was good, I'm not sure about Meighan's though. She could just be in the dark or she could have a smidgin of activism in her business blood. Advocating Free Speech is somthing Tim's been known to do.
Plus, if you all remember, Tim has had this sort of thing leveled at him before by Will, luckily Katherine defended him then so it never came to a vote.

I don't think that the voting body must be unanimous, I think the executive council must be unanimous before a vote can take place. Skiffy is a more balanced club than that.

Quorum. Hee hee! I remember the long discussion of that word back at NCC. I found out that Quorum meant a group of four for a meeting, and then I found out that was wrong and that it really meant the minimum group of people necesary to do something bureaucratically. Fun. I think I have quorum to go get a Coke.
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Postby Ray Radlein on Mon Apr 01, 2002 11:26 pm

On 2002-04-01 01:10, Shatteredtower wrote:
On 2002-04-01 00:11, Doublespeak wrote:
The problem here is that voting is being done on the spot, and emotions are running a little high.


I agree fully with this. This is not Rikk's proudest moment. Nor it is Will's - he is using this opening to ram an unconsidered decision through.


More to the point, they really needed to hear what Kath had to say about her visit with Shanna's mother.

Why Kath didn't interrupt the proceedings immediately to tell everyone about it (since, after all, the General told her that stuff was going to hit the fan that very day), I don't quite know. Stu could always be kicked out of the Club the next time the Club actually had a scheduled meeting; the matter of The General couldn't wait (as they soon discovered).
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Postby SKJAM! on Tue Apr 02, 2002 4:37 am

Now, what did Stu mean by "hypocrites?"

Did he mean the Fans' tolerance of other viewpoints--as long as those viewpoints don't personally offend them?

Or is Stu still thinking that secretly they agree with him and are just kicking him out because it's "politically incorrect" to say that sort of thing out loud?

Mind you, I don't seem to recall Stu getting a "first warning" about his behavior; Guth's rant was just aimed at getting Stu to leave without moderating his actions and speech.

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Postby Manticoraus on Tue Apr 02, 2002 7:30 am

Probably both cause if you stop an' consider three of that group have at least acted like that (non of the ball and chain and none of the pootang). Meighan, Tim, and Asilin.

I think the thing is Stu is male, Stu talks like a hick, Stu isn't "polite," and so we will judge Stu harshly instead of informing him or ignoring him. Stu could be considerred a more "real" Tim if you act like Tim did at the house party back in MDG you get slapped or kicked out. But I guess cause they know him they put up with him. Except for Will who really hates him (he was trying to kill him during Switch no lie)

Oh well...doesn't matter.

That thing in there ears...I think...it might be from everyone who interacted with Braino. But Meighan heard. And so did As...hmmm It wasn't the vote...

My is the General taking up..oh duh She's Stu's descedant same cheek bones and cavalier attitude towards death and slanty morality.

Maybe Stu..naw no...no...uhuh..ohkay.. me stop these stream of consciousness posts
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Postby SteveB on Tue Apr 02, 2002 7:45 am

On 2002-04-02 07:30, manticoraus wrote:
Probably both cause if you stop an' consider three of that group have at least acted like that (non of the ball and chain and none of the pootang). Meighan, Tim, and Asilin.


Sorry, but one would assume the "hypocrites" is aimed, for whatever reason, at those who voted him out. Meighan and Tim voted "Nay," remember? And if he expected Alisin to want him around after that, he's stupider than I thought.

Look at the title, folks. That's where the hypocrisy lies. And from the fact that T made the title (I assume he did, anyway), we can deduce that he agrees with Stu's assessment. (Or can we?)

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Postby LordNicodareus on Tue Apr 02, 2002 9:50 am

I do not think they are being hypocrits, as Stu apparently thinks. Yes, the club is accepting of everyone, including people like Stu, But people like Stu have to accept back. Its a give-give relationship. STu is like a parasite. He is dividing the club, and he is also a threat to not only the women, but to the males as well. Tim, yes, Tim is a lecherous l33t-g33k, as we all are, or try not to be :wink: but he is like that to everyone, INCLUDING the guys,not just the chicks. Hell about Rikk "striking him from behind", Rikk woulda hit him had he been facing him, I bet Stu was glad Rikk didn't pack heat (considering the history of this club, I woulda started packin' a long time ago). And yes, three others have attributed "in it for the sex" attitudes, but Alisin has changed, Meighan has previous ties to the club so she hasnt been like this the entire time(just darn close to it) AND she hasn't made hostile advances, and Tim, well, yes Tim, as I explained above, is typical of the stereotype he represents. Anyhoo Stu should still be kicked, if not later, after this debacle(sp) has ended.

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Postby Shatteredtower on Tue Apr 02, 2002 10:52 am

On 2002-04-02 09:50, LordNicodareus wrote:
Hell about Rikk "striking him from behind", Rikk woulda hit him had he been facing him...


That is no justification. It's like saying, "I'd have missed if he'd only ducked."

Rikk went to strike a man from behind. That is low. In some situations, it's necessary - but this wasn't one of them.

Meanwhile, show me anything that Stu has done that has made it impossible to work with him as a club member.

Molesting Jackie? If the club believes that that is what occured, then they should have reported him to campus officials, not kicked him out of the club. Or they should have addressed the issue with him.

They didn't. So that line of accusation against him isn't worth my time.

Meanwhile, he never spiked another's drink (Kath). He never misdirected another member of the club into a dangerous situation (Shanna). The only way in which he goaded Guth that we've seen is by his presence - past history does not and can not apply here.

(Not unless the club runs police checks - in which case we can safely write off Alisin.)

Even his actions with Jackie were less manipulative than Jackie's actions with Shanna, Will, or Meighan, Timin with the club as a whole (correct or not), Shanna's actions with Jackie and Will, Will's actions with Rikk this week - I think I could keep this up a while, don't you?

My, my, but there does seem to be some weight to the charge of hypocrisy, doesn't there, officer?

Now let's go to his observation about the male fantasy. As small as that makes us sound, he was right, on some level. But it is a fantasy - a joke in extremely poor taste, to be sure, an ill-considered remark.

But if you're the sort of person who'd write a man off for not thinking before he engages his brain, you're caught in an interesting dilemma, because you haven't thought it through.

Sure, you would never make such a remark! I believe you - but give me fifty years with a device that read every moment of your adult history, and I bet you I could find a remark or opinion no less damning in every last one of your backgrounds.

Half the membership has pasts littered with bigger crimes - ones that have yet to be properly addressed. Dealing with this would have been a far easier task, but nobody bothered.

You can say, "It wouldn't make a difference," and maybe you'd be right. But I have seen convictions changed at the drop of a single revealing statement before - something that puts a person's actions into perspective. Is that something that is beyond the club's power?

Maybe. But... they... didn't... try. They knew better, and failed, whereas Stu's failure is in not knowing better. By Guth's logic, his cousin has the high ground here.

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Postby J. on Tue Apr 02, 2002 10:53 am

On 2002-04-02 09:50, LordNicodareus wrote:
I bet Stu was glad Rikk didn't pack heat (considering the history of this club, I woulda started packin' a long time ago).


I'm glad I'm not the only one who's thought this! I was beginning to fear that my rural, casual familiarity with firearms made me a complete redneck, instead of just most a' one.
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Postby LordNicodareus on Tue Apr 02, 2002 11:00 am

Well, We seem to be the only partial rednecks on this board eh, J? Yeah, of course, we are also more than likley to shoot first and ask questions later, and Rikk would probably not agree with those kinds of tactics when it comes to dealing with *insert menace here*, knowhaddimean?
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