Page 1 of 2

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 8:51 am
by Nodrog
Ok, first let me say the good points: It shows a neet intro to the Ferengis, and I love the way Captain Archer deals with them. Now: The bad points:

Ignoring the fact that the Ferengi manage to get a gas aboard the Enterprised which effects EVERYONE who breathes it by putting them in a non-lethal sleap that would, on it's own, wake them up at roughly the same time DESPITE WIDELY DIFFERENT BODY TYPES (at least two non-humans onboard) AND DIFFERING LEVELS OF EXPOSURE, there's the whole gold bars thing.

The reason, suposedly, that Feringi talk aboult Gold pressed Latinum is that LATINUM IS A VERY VALUABLE LIQUID SUBSTANCE TO THEM and that GOLD IS A RELITIVELY LOW/NO VALUE MATERIAL that they use to hold a drop of latinum in each bar. Offering the Ferengis a vault of gold is the equivelent of offering a modern American a block of Aluminum. Yeah, at one time it was a hard to come by substance, but now so what?

Nodrog "Rule of Aquisition #290231: Never be afraid of making up your own rules" Skrap

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 9:18 am
by Nullset
Well, at least they _mentioned_ latinum. And these Ferrengi we more pirates than businessmen. Heck, they were even going to steal Archer's _dog_! And we got to see the ever ellusive Ferrengi energy whip, too.

But, it was a contrived episode, you are quite right. One encounter with the technologically superior, though intellectually inferior, Ferrengi pirates who had a vessel equipted with a plot device.


Also, nice to see that Paramont still has a place in its heart for Neelix, who played the "leader" of this intrepid band I suspect. *gag*

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 12:42 pm
by Diamond
Actually I think the whole gold/latinum thing was perfectly OK. Consider: in the 24th century DS9-era, gold itself is a near-worthless thing you suspend the latinum in. The reason gold isn't valuable is replicators. Replicators, common in the 24th century, aren't necessarily common in the 22nd century of Enterprise.

It makes sense the Ferengi of the DS9-era haven't had replicators long. If they had, their consumerism might be dulled, as it was for humans who started off capitalistic but grew beyond that in great part because replicators made that irrelevant.

Also, in the TNG episode in which the Enterprise was bidding for the Bazran wormhole rights, the Ferengi offer to top anyone's offer with a chest of gold. Do you see Riker's disgusted look? He's thinking, "poor schmucks, we can replicate twice that much gold in 10 seconds." The Ferengi of early-TNG era value gold, and so they must get replicator technology sometime after that.

Thus, it's perfectly appropriate that the Ferengi in this episode are undone by their greed for mere gold. Your description of Gold's worth is only true of a much later era. Your analogy of aluminum is accurate, but they're selling hundreds of years earlier.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 1:01 pm
by Aris Katsaris
In the very first episode of TNG we see Ferengi in, they mention gold as a valuable metal. So it'd be inconsistent if gold WASN'T valuable to earlier Ferengi.

You can't use DS9 knowledge to declare gold useless to Ferengi of two centuries earlier...

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 3:38 pm
by Gormenghastly
I give kudos to the fact that the first 10 to 15 minutes of the show not a word was spoken except in Ferengi, yet the show was still understandable without feeling contrived.

My biggest gripe was that Trip, Archer, and T'Pol all seemed to have some telepathic ability to figure out exactly what to say to manipulate the Ferengi. Shame that same ability doesn't work on Klingons, Vulcans, and Andorians.

Overall a pretty good episode, but yet again Hoshi and Merriweather get nothing interesting to do.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:22 pm
by Nodrog
Well, it may be depressing to say, but let's face it: For Americans, the Ferengi culture (greed and rules of aquisition) is easier to figure out consistantly then the other alien cultures.

Ferengi's are greedy and untrustworthy; therefore, they don't trust others and expect them to be hoarding valuable materials.

Klingons are warriors who value honor; you either are an honorable enemy, in which case they want to fight you, or you're not an honorable enemy, in which case they want to kill you. Some of them only pay lip service to honor; some believe it strongly. Mix in cultural rituals only a masochist can love, it's a society the the much more hedonistic in comparison Federation members have dificulty understanding. And, even then, we've seen Archer 'figure out' the Klingon Mindset.

Vulcans: Vulcans would like you to believe they have no emotions, but they use logic and rigid mind discipline to block their way too strong emotions. They are willing to die for their ideals if it is the only logical course of action. While they can be 'illogiced' to defeat them, their generally highly developed mental abbilities and willingness to follow a logical course of action gives them an edge when dealing with more impulsive humans.

Andorians: If they're who I think they are, they're being ordered about by mysterious figures from the future. YOU try to outthink someone who considers you a footnote in a history textbook.

Oh, and I don't mind the Feringi gas so much after I realized the obvious: It's Ratliff Gas! (Check out ... ategory=SR if you don't know what that is)
This explains why Archer's dog wasn't affected, he's too young.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 8:42 pm
by ThePsiCop
well... everyone else pretty much did a good job explaining the problems and how they're not... so I'll just chime in with reactions:

1. I like how they don't ever mention the name 'Ferengi'. This helps fit since first contact with Ferengi isn't supposed to be for awhile. (gah.... please don't bring up the klingons again :sad:)

2. YaY! The Ferengi energy whip! :smile:

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2002 1:39 am
by Strangeone
This was a fun episode to be sure. I loved the scene with the Ferrengi that attempted to communicate with Porthos (Archer's dog). It was pretty obvious that these guys weren't the sharpest tacks to leave the Ferrengi factory. :wink:

It was nice how they managed to have a Ferrengi episode prior to their supposed first contact. It's probably difficult for the producers to resist the temptation to do this more often. I remember an article recently in which Braga, I believe, said that they've talked about maybe bringing in the Romulans in a similar fashion, but they won't do it without a decent story idea. I was pleased with how they revived the Andorians after having not been seen since the first series, though. I think it would be fun to see them again.

Wince at the Klingon appearances if you want, they've been kept brief and within the guidelines of the storyline. The trick is giving the fans what they want while maintaining continuity, which is something that not even Star Trek has been successful at in the past, as far back as at least Star Trek II. How could Khan recognize Chekov? He wasn't part of the crew when the Enterprise first encountered him. You see my point?

So far, Enterprise has been a good show. It has far more energy than Voyager ever had, isn't bound in a tight grip with the Prime Directive yet, and is pretty much a chance for more creative freedom in the Star Trek universe. I'm looking forward to seeing this series develop.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2002 7:58 am
by Maccabee
They already blew continuity by putting a Vulcan on a Starfleet ship (Trekkie apologist: "She's not a Starfleet officer, though." Me: "Then how come she's in the chain of command?" Trekkie apologist: "..."). Hell, they blew continuity by having Zephram Cochrane meet Vulcans in Worst Contact.

The Khan/Chekhov thing is an easier fix, though. The show never specified when Pavel joined the crew -- we just didn't see him until second season. He could have served below decks before being transferred to the regular shift bridge crew.

I don't much like having to make up new data to fix Trek's mistakes, but I'm used to it.

former member of a Star Trek fan club

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2002 9:07 am
by Diamond
Khan: I never forget a face... I saw you in the hundreds of crew we dragged to the detention area after we gassed you unconsious. I remember them, all 425 (not counting those who were on the Bridge). I *have* the superior intellect.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2002 12:04 pm
by Strangeone
T'Pol's in the chain of command because Archer wants her on board. The Vulcans have a far more vast knowledge of space than humans at this point in Trek chronology.

And First Contact was a good Trek movie.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:42 pm
by Maccabee
I haven't watched Enterprise regularly, but I did watch the pilot -- T'pol was forced down Archer's throat. Furthermore, there's a huge difference between an advisor/observer and a first officer/cutrate Spock with huge knockers, which is what she is.

And the Trek movie in question, in addition to trashing original series continuity (not surprising, since Braga admitted to not watching the original series), was effectively a big zombie movie in space. The Borg bite you and you turn evil. Dig the dark corridors of the setting. Then there was the Borg Queen -- the audience is clearly too stupid to grasp a truly alien intelligence like the Borg collective as originally written, so let's turn them into yet another bunch of glorified high-tech termites by giving them a queen. Oh, and just in case people aren't sure she's the bad guy, we'll have her do all the typical villain things like rant and preen and try to seduce one of the heroes...

If you want a dumb action movie with mega explosions, this is a great film for you.

But I wanted Star Trek.

still bitter,

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2002 5:25 pm
by Strangeone
Star Trek is many things. Some would argue that Star Trek IV isn't Star Trek.

First Contact works on the kinetic action level. It has more to do with doing than saying. Without variety in the styles of the films, the Star Trek series would look like the same film over and over again. Variety is the spice of life, as they say. It just won't always agree with you.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2002 6:47 pm
by LordNicodareus
About the "zombie" trek, I really dont think that was their original intention. I mean, The Borg arent the perfect communist society, at least they were until they made Locutus. Now, had they never done the Locutus storyline, then yes, it would be very improbable that the borg had a queen. I see the borg as a powerful computer. It can do trillions of operations a second, and all this other neat stuff, but if there is no one who has the know-how or the right programs, its just an expensive piece of hardware. Locutus was a user on this proverbial comp, and the Queen was the Sys Admin. Damn I need to get out more...

(EDIT) Ok, I started something and didn't finish it, anyhoo like I said in the beginning, The whole space zombie thing was probably just a coindedence. Admittedly, Rick Berman *is* a filking bastard, he still would try to keep the original idea alive, which is copying Star Trek IV, only a bit more hip. So I'll do what I have always done, and Balme Rick for anything I dont like. Cause Kath has it right, Patrick Stewart can do NO wrong.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: LordNicodareus on 2002-03-29 18:53 ]</font>

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2002 9:47 pm
by Catz Bartlett
So I'll do what I have always done, and Balme Rick for anything I dont like. Cause Kath has it right, Patrick Stewart can do NO wrong.

Darn tootin'...and the same goes for Michael Dorn, Levar Burton and Brent Spiner. ^_^

I figure that the Borg Queen wasn't a Queen at all...she never called herself that, or even referred to herself as "I", far as I can remember.

What makes the most sense to me is that the Borg DO have a communal mind...and the Queen is simply the expression of that mind. That explains how she can pop up again after being killed...and the fact that she's probably constructed rather than assimilated supports that. Thing is, most Borg drones seem to be human...and the initial human conception of the Borg is of one giant ant colony.

And ants DO have queens...thus the fact that it's a Borg Queen - female-looking, even - rather than some androgynous pseudo-Metatron.

(BTW, if you don't know what a Metatron's an angel in Biblical stuff that acts as the Voice of God. Played by Alan Rickman in Dogma...coooooool movie...^_^)

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2002 10:51 pm
by Ray Radlein
On 2002-03-29 07:58, Maccabee wrote:
They already blew continuity by putting a Vulcan on a Starfleet ship (Trekkie apologist: "She's not a Starfleet officer, though." Me: "Then how come she's in the chain of command?" Trekkie apologist: "...").

She's in the chain of command because that's the way the chain of command wanted it. There is nothing unique or unprecedented about officers being seconded to allied military organizations.

It happens with UN (and other) peacekeeping forces (or with UNIT on Doctor Who); it happens with "military advisors" (such as the Romulan officer serving on board the Defiant in DS9); it happens with officer exchange programs (such as the one which landed Riker on board a Klingon ship in TNG). Enterprise is not breaking any new ground in this, either with respect to actual military practices, or with respect to other televised SF series.

Sometimes these arrangements operate without friction; sometimes they don't. But on the giant list of improbable events in Star Trek, having a non-Starfleet Vulcan in the chain of command is not exactly anywhere near the top.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2002 1:57 am
by Gormenghastly
But on the giant list of improbable events in Star Trek, having a non-Starfleet Vulcan in the chain of command is not exactly anywhere near the top.

I'm far more bothered by the continuity issues raised by T'Pol's rank of Sub Commander. It's my understanding Vulcan is a hot dry planet, so I wanna know how they had a submarine for her to command.

(Now running away from the pun haters.)

PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2002 2:56 am
by Strangeone
Vulcan may have been a hot, dry planet, but from my understanding was still far from Arrakis. Also, who says the submarine was on Vulcan? Perhaps it was a submarine on another world.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2002 3:47 am
by Shatteredtower
On 2002-03-31 02:56, Strangeone wrote:
Vulcan may have been a hot, dry planet, but from my understanding was still far from Arrakis. Also, who says the submarine was on Vulcan? Perhaps it was a submarine on another world.

Strangeone, the previous poster was referring to a sub-commander, as in a rank below the commander, not the commander of a submarine. Not picking on you, just clarifying.

[Though I forgot to mention in the clarification that it was being used as a small pun, leading to the misunderstanding. Sorry. :oops:]

But for real fun, there's the rank of Acting Sub-lieutenant in the Canadian Armed Forces (among the navy). It just doesn't inspire confidence in the officer with that rank, does it?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shatteredtower on 2002-03-31 03:49 ]</font>

PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2002 2:23 pm
by Strangeone
Gah! :oops:

Bah. DAMN YOUR PUNS!!!! :razz:

Still, not every little niggling detail in Enterprise or any Trek needs to be analysed for weaknesses in continuity. It's a form of entertainment first and formost; those who make Trek a way of life are secondary.